Why Looting Other Players is Not Theft

[DaisyColdFinger]

Cant watch the vid :/ Just me or is youtube messed up ? I get this ...

400. That’s an error.

Your client has issued a malformed or illegal request. That’s all we know.

 

[Nor Alien]

Cant watch the vid :/ Just me or is youtube messed up ? I get this ...

400. That’s an error.

Your client has issued a malformed or illegal request. That’s all we know.

Strange I had no problems.

 

[DaisyColdFinger]

Strange I had no problems.

K nvm seems it is a prob on Opera browser

 

[Xane]

That's just an excuse.

No thems just the facts.

Items removed from real money by one step doesn't make them lose value.

I never said that they don't have value.

So if instead of getting looted you sold them and withdraw the money, you would have real money.

Correct.

Basically it is MA licensed theft and part of the game, but that doesn't it less of a theft.

It's not a theft, you never had ownership. You had some of MA's things, a pirate kills you and takes them, now the pirate has some of MA's things.

Everything else is just euphemisms from pirates devised to make them feel good about themselves.

I feel good about myself regardless, just trying to understand why you can't see the this from a realistic point of view.

And it's not happening just in EU, same thing in stock markets, derivatives, etc.

I think the stock market operates within a different set of rules(real life).

 

[Moonbiter]

I feel good about myself regardless, just trying to understand why you can't see the this from a realistic point of view.

And how my viewpoint is unrealistic? I accept piracy as part of the game that MA has sanctioned, and therefore never carry stackables when flying in quad. If a pirate shoots me, i just let him do it, and continue my flight after reviving. If i carry stackables, i always use a mothership. So i think that's pretty realistic outlook.

However that doesn't change the reality. Even if by EULA items do not belong to me, you are still taking them from me without my consent by act of violence. If in real life i get robbed and items that are stolen don't belong to me, that doesn't make it less of a theft. And even if you argue that it is not, you still can't deny the fact that you're profiting at expense of other players depriving them of items with value.

I think the stock market operates within a different set of rules(real life).

Unfortunately for us all, it does not.]

 

[Svarog]

I wonder why pirates are so afraid of this word, theft. They don't mind calling themselves pirates, as if it's not a bad enough thing already, so why don't take the roleplay a bit further and say - yes, we are thieves and robbers, so what? Many other MMOs even have character classes clearly named "Thief" and people don't mind to choose those if they feel like it. Take pride in what you do no matter how low it is, don't act like petty lawyers bargaining over every definition on the forums.

Also, aren't pirates supposed to be illiterate? How do they use forums, anyway?

 

[Xane]

I wonder why pirates are so afraid of this word, theft. They don't mind calling themselves pirates, as if it's not a bad enough thing already, so why don't take the roleplay a bit further and say - yes, we are thieves and robbers, so what? Many other MMOs even have character classes clearly named "Thief" and people don't mind to choose those if they feel like it. Take pride in what you do no matter how low it is, don't act like petty lawyers bargaining over every definition on the forums.

Also, aren't pirates supposed to be illiterate? How do they use forums, anyway?

If all these insults and accusations were being done in game to my ava then I would have no objection to any of this, the problem at least for me is that these comments are outside the game and are intended for the real people who play the game. If you want to call me a pirate/thief/low life scum/whatever in game that's fine I enjoy it and most of it is true, IN GAME. But to say this is what you are in real life and should be subject to persecution just baffles me! Do you not know where the game ends and real life begins?

 

[Svarog]

"Real life" is when someone's calling you at home or is standing at your front door. The forums are part of the game.

 

[Moonbiter]

If all these insults and accusations were being done in game to my ava then I would have no objection to any of this, the problem at least for me is that these comments are outside the game and are intended for the real people who play the game. If you want to call me a pirate/thief/low life scum/whatever in game that's fine I enjoy it and most of it is true, IN GAME. But to say this is what you are in real life and should be subject to persecution just baffles me! Do you not know where the game ends and real life begins?

Where did i say a single word about persecution or calling names? I think you should really read more carefully.

I've got no enmity with you, i'm just calling things by their real names. This forum is an extension of the game, so if you don't want this topic brought up, or insults hurled at you either here or ingame maybe you should consider a change of profession.

And one more thing. If you feel bad about insults, maybe you should think how bad the person who gets looted feels. Behind every avatar there is a real person.

And as Svarog said, if you chose this path, be proud of what you are, and stop with the petty lawyering.

 

[Xane]

Where did i say a single word about persecution or calling names? I think you should really read more carefully.

I've got no enmity with you, i'm just calling things by their real names. This forum is an extension of the game, so if you don't want this topic brought up, or insults hurled at you either here or ingame maybe you should consider a change of profession.

And one more thing. If you feel bad about insults, maybe you should think how bad the person who gets looted feels. Behind every avatar there is a real person.

And as Svarog said, if you chose this path, be proud of what you are, and stop with the petty lawyering.

AWWW I see now you're not calling me a thief in real life, you're simply using the forum as an extension of the game. My bad, I assumed incorrectly as many others have indeed taken their accusations beyond the game. In this case I deny nothing, I am a thief and a pirate. I will continue to fill my chests with your gold and become drunk on your disdain.

 

[OZtwo]

AWWW I see now you're not calling me a thief in real life, you're simply using the forum as an extension of the game. My bad, I assumed incorrectly as many others have indeed taken their accusations beyond the game. In this case I deny nothing, I am a thief and a pirate. I will continue to fill my chests with your gold and become drunk on your disdain.

This is sad really a place you found you can break the law and not get punished for it. Again if this was any other game, well, it's a game nothing is lost or gained..here again as in real life, things are lost and gained without any legal issues.

 

[Miles]

I just got looted by Xane - he didn't steal my loot, he won it. It was just dumb play on my part, and a small, easy win on his part - my first time getting looted while hunting, but surely not my last.

I don't think he got more than 15 ped, but I would say the same if it was 10 times that amount (although I would've tried to make a real run for it). If I felt otherwise I'd have no business being out there in the first place.


Miles

 

[Uvas]

This is sad really a place you found you can break the law and not get punished for it. Again if this was any other game, well, it's a game nothing is lost or gained..here again as in real life, things are lost and gained without any legal issues.

No one is breaking any laws.

Anyone who enters pvp voluntarily gives up some rights as soon as they step into it. You can lose your property without it being "theft".

Just as when someone enters a football field during a game. You can get knocked around and tackled without it being "assault".

If you don't like the rules of pvp, don't go in there.

 

[OZtwo]

It's not the players at fault here, it's MA. With your example above, if one were to go into that football stadium and take someone's belongings with the stadium rules stating that anyone at anytime can take any other ones belongings, would that be theft? Could they go to jail? Or would that sign override state and federal laws?

It's understand what the debate here is, but what a lot are over looking is that this game is again dealing with real money and in that MA has to fallow the rules as anyone else does. They are allowing you to come into game, steal from others and if you do good, withdraw that money back into Real World cash.

 

[sndlwood]

It's not the players at fault here, it's MA. With your example above, if one were to go into that football stadium and take someone's belongings with the stadium rules stating that anyone at anytime can take any other ones belongings, would that be theft? Could they go to jail? Or would that sign override state and federal laws?

It's understand what the debate here is, but what a lot are over looking is that this game is again dealing with real money and in that MA has to fallow the rules as anyone else does. They are allowing you to come into game, steal from others and if you do good, withdraw that money back into Real World cash.

Let me point out here that participants in Entropia Universe are not just casual, uninvolved pedestrians, unless that's all they choose to be. It is well known by everyone that the very purpose of most players participation here is to acquire loot by any way possible within the boundaries set out by the developer. Therefore, any person can choose to get their loot in PVP lootable areas by PK'ing a weaker player and taking the loot they happens to be carrying at the time. The system transfers those items from one player to another, because this is the way the developer wanted their entertainment-experience/game to work. Anyone, moral or otherwise, can do this without accusation or guilt in those specified areas, and despite the obvious procedure of killing and looting a fellow players avatar, the true definition of lootable PVP cannot include the words "violence", "stealing", or "theft", because it simply is none of those things, it is however, strategic game-play.

Continuing to point out that loot carried by players has real-world value and therefore makes looting a player theft is arbitrary. No player in Entropia has ever been robbed of their items if they willingly traveled into a lootable area and were killed and looted by another player. It is a matter of points (in the form of lootable items) lost and points won, regardless of the fact that the "points" can be transferred to PED and extracted from the game.

This system is not a fault, or a mistake, or an error in judgement created by MA, it is a feature of Entropia Universe, enjoyed by many. Those who have been emotionally effected by loosing to stronger players and been looted in PVP areas need to stop pointing the finger of blame at the "bastards" who robbed them, or at MA who developed the system. They were not "robbed", rather, they failed to properly protect their loot and in most cases they made it easy for the "pirate" by failing to protect themselves. Those players who are doing most of the looting are laughing it up, because the rest of us have as our best defense trying to run or fly away. Ideally, lootable PVP areas would only be populated by players with the skills and equipment to battle each other.

This is not Disney Land kids, This is Entropia Universe. It is designed to be a harsh environment at best, at worst, it is every man for himself. Kill the other guy before he kills you. All you sensitive folks who want to have tea parties, fashion shows and dance around with your pets are welcome. We have lots of safe and easy stuff to do...well, not pets atm thank god, but you can seriously experience the whole universe without ever being looted. Anyone else needs to learn to skill-up, amp-up some kick-ass weaponry and get-a-pair and make those "bastards" work for their loot, or simply do like I do and stay the F away from lootable PVP.

 

[Xane]

Let me point out here that participants in Entropia Universe are not just casual, uninvolved pedestrians, unless that's all they choose to be. It is well known by everyone that the very purpose of most players participation here is to acquire loot by any way possible within the boundaries set out by the developer. Therefore, any person can choose to get their loot in PVP lootable areas by PK'ing a weaker player and taking the loot they happens to be carrying at the time. The system transfers those items from one player to another, because this is the way the developer wanted their entertainment-experience/game to work. Anyone, moral or otherwise, can do this without accusation or guilt in those specified areas, and despite the obvious procedure of killing and looting a fellow players avatar, the true definition of lootable PVP cannot include the words "violence", "stealing", or "theft", because it simply is none of those things, it is however, strategic game-play.

Continuing to point out that loot carried by players has real-world value and therefore makes looting a player theft is arbitrary. No player in Entropia has ever been robbed of their items if they willingly traveled into a lootable area and were killed and looted by another player. It is a matter of points (in the form of lootable items) lost and points won, regardless of the fact that the "points" can be transferred to PED and extracted from the game.

This system is not a fault, or a mistake, or an error in judgement created by MA, it is a feature of Entropia Universe, enjoyed by many. Those who have been emotionally effected by loosing to stronger players and been looted in PVP areas need to stop pointing the finger of blame at the "bastards" who robbed them, or at MA who developed the system. They were not "robbed", rather, they failed to properly protect their loot and in most cases they made it easy for the "pirate" by failing to protect themselves. Those players who are doing most of the looting are laughing it up, because the rest of us have as our best defense trying to run or fly away. Ideally, lootable PVP areas would only be populated by players with the skills and equipment to battle each other.

This is not Disney Land kids, This is Entropia Universe. It is designed to be a harsh environment at best, at worst, it is every man for himself. Kill the other guy before he kills you. All you sensitive folks who want to have tea parties, fashion shows and dance around with your pets are welcome. We have lots of safe and easy stuff to do...well, not pets atm thank god, but you can seriously experience the whole universe without ever being looted. Anyone else needs to learn to skill-up, amp-up some kick-ass weaponry and get-a-pair and make those "bastards" work for their loot, or simply do like I do and stay the F away from lootable PVP.

and this beautiful logic unfortunately will be countered with something like this: Those are just excuses to make pirate scum feel better about robbing honest people of their hard earned items. This is exactly like going up to someone in real life and taking their paycheck right out of there hands. THIEFS!!!!!!!!

Some people will always speak out of emotion and this makes no sense to people that speak out of logic. There is no debate here both are 100% correct from their point of view and won't be converted. But we know who is really correct

 

[Audrey Cheerful]

No one is breaking any laws.

Anyone who enters pvp voluntarily gives up some rights as soon as they step into it. You can lose your property without it being "theft".

Just as when someone enters a football field during a game. You can get knocked around and tackled without it being "assault".

If you don't like the rules of pvp, don't go in there.

This has been said a thousand times. People who didn't get it yet will never get it.

 

[OZtwo]

and this beautiful logic unfortunately will be countered with something like this: Those are just excuses to make pirate scum feel better about robbing honest people of their hard earned items. This is exactly like going up to someone in real life and taking their paycheck right out of there hands. THIEFS!!!!!!!!

Some people will always speak out of emotion and this makes no sense to people that speak out of logic. There is no debate here both are 100% correct from their point of view and won't be converted. But we know who is really correct

No, see, I'm not pointing any fingers at the players...I'm pointing them at MA. Because really this is an all time first ever done so most of the logic being made up is on the fly. The simple logic is that it is real money being dealt with so as the game is setup, the game can not have lootable PvP.

Sure a lot of other games are setup where you can buy items with real cash, but due to them having PvP lootable, the rules state that they, the users, can not sale the items back to make a profit off it. If the company where to let users do this freely they then would be at fault. The issue here is MA is so small still they can get away with it. But if they grow, they will need to change how the deal with ingame money.

 

[Uvas]

It's not the players at fault here, it's MA. With your example above, if one were to go into that football stadium and take someone's belongings with the stadium rules stating that anyone at anytime can take any other ones belongings, would that be theft? Could they go to jail? Or would that sign override state and federal laws?

It's understand what the debate here is, but what a lot are over looking is that this game is again dealing with real money and in that MA has to fallow the rules as anyone else does. They are allowing you to come into game, steal from others and if you do good, withdraw that money back into Real World cash.

On the football field, everyone agrees before they step onto the field that getting hit and tackled is not assault. Also, any of your equipment which you bring onto the field may be broken by enemy players. (Some of which is expensive.) You can't take them to court for destruction of your private property. It indeed overrides state and federal laws.

If the rules on the field somehow included the taking of other players equipment by force, for example,then that too would be part of the game and you would waive some of your rights to private property when you entered the stadium voluntarily.

So if you were concerned about losing your property, you would either not bring it with you to the field, or not enter the field of play at all.

People seem to be getting stuck on the money part.

Another arena that could be used as an example that includes your money is the field of investment. You give your money to a company in hopes that the company will use it to turn a profit and give you back your money at a later date with a profit for you.

Now the company can use your money foolishly or incorrectly and lose your investment. As long as they play by the rules of investment, the SEC and who else, then you are out of luck. Your money is gone. You entered that particular arena knowing the rules and lost your money.

 

[Miles]

Pirates do not steal from you, they win from you. It's a game.

When you are in Space you are playing a game - MA makes the rules and the rules say it's lootable PVP. You can complain to MA all you want, but don't hate the players. Nobody likes a whiner.

When you sit down at a poker table, you agree that you might lose the money you put on the table - that's the whole point of the game. As long as no cheating is involved, the rules are the same for everyone. If you don't like the rules, you don't put your money on the table. You can limit your risk by limiting the amount of money you put on the table - by how much loot you carry. You can eliminate you risk quite simply, don't put any money on the table - don't carry any loot in space.


Miles

 

[aia]

When you sit down at a poker table, you agree that you might lose the money you put on the table - that's the whole point of the game.

One thing though, but it's more a problem caused by MA: It's easy to forget "empty your pockets" before going to space, for instance you could have used a vehicle as storage box during a hunt where you got over 200 carried items and then forgot to check vehicle again. And I think there is a recent screenshot in pvp forum here someone got looted off tier crafting components, or something like that. And for me, wel it's been a while, I was out hunting, I had 5-6 ammo stacks weighting me down, so I wanted to merge them. At the same time I got a summon box and guess what happened. (I didn't get looted though, merely lost 7 ped in TP fee.)

Pirates have no way knowing though if the one they're killing have something with them they didn't intend to bring. But a pirate should think it's odd someone is carrying an Odenfield Ventricle System *to* Calypso.

 

[KiriMistPrinces]

Last I knew of you couldn't enter space with loot in vehicle storages.

 

[Moonbiter]

Last I knew of you couldn't enter space with loot in vehicle storages.

You can, if loot is not in the vehicle that you're flying.

I flew once with 200ped+ worth of stuff in pitbull' storage without even realizing it.

 

[Moonbiter]

Pirates do not steal from you, they win from you. It's a game.

When you are in Space you are playing a game - MA makes the rules and the rules say it's lootable PVP. You can complain to MA all you want, but don't hate the players. Nobody likes a whiner.

When you sit down at a poker table, you agree that you might lose the money you put on the table - that's the whole point of the game. As long as no cheating is involved, the rules are the same for everyone. If you don't like the rules, you don't put your money on the table. You can limit your risk by limiting the amount of money you put on the table - by how much loot you carry. You can eliminate you risk quite simply, don't put any money on the table - don't carry any loot in space.


Miles

That's a cute analogy but totally incorrect. In poker to win the chips on table you actually have to bet your own chips. In space pvp, pirate is not risking anything like that, just the cost to shoot down the vehicle. As a consequence it also doesn't make sense to fight back, especially if you're empty. If pirate's risk was much more significant, this would be a much more interesting game. (EvE pvp is a good example, each side engaged is risking the complete destruction of their ship, so if you fight back and win, pirate's blinged out ship is actually destroyed beyond recovery. So one will think twice before attacking.)

In any case, i don't even know why we are having this discussion. Any self respecting player is carrying their lootables only by mothership, and those who don't, have only their own greed to blame. Ticket price for scheduled MS flights couldn't be more affordable. And if you fly often, subscriptions offer even a better deal. Back in a day it used to be 40-50peds for a round trip to CND and nobody complained much. For that cost nowadays you can make 8-10 interplanetary trips.

So for the majority of reasonable players, pirates are nothing but an additional cost factor and a minor annoyance.

 

[KiriMistPrinces]

You can, if loot is not in the vehicle that you're flying.

I flew once with 200ped+ worth of stuff in pitbull' storage without even realizing it.

Ohh didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up

 

[aia]

You can, if loot is not in the vehicle that you're flying.

I flew once with 200ped+ worth of stuff in pitbull' storage without even realizing it.

You can't spawn vehicles with something in inventory in aboard motherships - not even if it's not a single stackable.

Found out I got an odd error message when I wanted to show someone on a mothership my textured hoverpod, but wasn't able to spawn it. When I got down to planet I looked in hoverpod inventory and found a few guns and later MA support confirmed it was because its inventory wasn't empty it wasn't possible to show it on motherships.

 

[Miles]

One thing though, but it's more a problem caused by MA: It's easy to forget "empty your pockets" before going to space, for instance you could have used a vehicle as storage box during a hunt where you got over 200 carried items and then forgot to check vehicle again. And I think there is a recent screenshot in pvp forum here someone got looted off tier crafting components, or something like that. And for me, wel it's been a while, I was out hunting, I had 5-6 ammo stacks weighting me down, so I wanted to merge them. At the same time I got a summon box and guess what happened. (I didn't get looted though, merely lost 7 ped in TP fee.)

Pirates have no way knowing though if the one they're killing have something with them they didn't intend to bring. But a pirate should think it's odd someone is carrying an Odenfield Ventricle System *to* Calypso.

Ammo stacks don't weigh anything, do they? But that is beside the point. When entering space you are entering a different game. Space is a game featuring lootable PVP, and so one should always enter it well prepared. Look, I've made mistakes that cost me PED's throughout my years in EU, and I always consider them lessons - some more expensive than others - but the biggest mistake is to not learn from them. (We also have the lessons we can learn for free - those made by others.)

And I doubt pirates think it's "odd" whatever people are carrying - more likely they think it's stupid - but punishing stupidity is one of the roles of the pirates.

That's a cute analogy but totally incorrect. In poker to win the chips on table you actually have to bet your own chips. In space pvp, pirate is not risking anything like that, just the cost to shoot down the vehicle. As a consequence it also doesn't make sense to fight back, especially if you're empty. If pirate's risk was much more significant, this would be a much more interesting game. (EvE pvp is a good example, each side engaged is risking the complete destruction of their ship, so if you fight back and win, pirate's blinged out ship is actually destroyed beyond recovery. So one will think twice before attacking.)

In any case, i don't even know why we are having this discussion. Any self respecting player is carrying their lootables only by mothership, and those who don't, have only their own greed to blame. Ticket price for scheduled MS flights couldn't be more affordable. And if you fly often, subscriptions offer even a better deal. Back in a day it used to be 40-50peds for a round trip to CND and nobody complained much. For that cost nowadays you can make 8-10 interplanetary trips.

So for the majority of reasonable players, pirates are nothing but an additional cost factor and a minor annoyance.

As an avid Space hunter, I stand to loose more than most "reasonable players" and there is no MS safety on a solo hunting run - but I believe the correct response to the situation is to embrace it, either that or else chose not to take part. The poker analogy is a bit of a stretch, but the point was that by entering Space you are taking a seat at the table. Of course the rules, risks, and rewards are all different - but you've actively chosen to play the game and that game features lootable PVP. Like any game of skill and chance, some play it better than others (and sometimes the better player loses anyway).

I agree that transporting loot with out the protection of a mother ship is a dumb play - but people make it all the time. I don't think self-respect has anything to do with. It's the pirates they are failing to respect. Pirates are generally much better at Space battles than the rest of us.

EU offers plenty of dumb plays that people make all the time. It is part and parcel of the unique freedom that the wide open gaming universe that is EU provides us. I've smuggled loot across the universe, when I've judged the risk to be low enough, but I am still shocked by the number of people who don't make use of the extremely safe transport options that exist - again, on that point I couldn't agree with you more.


Miles

 

[aia]

Ammo stacks don't weigh anything, do they?

My problem isn't the weight (except at vu 9.0 when I got hundreds of animal hides from thorifoids), but rather the number of item points in carried inventory. Let's say 4-5 armor sets, a bunch of more weapons, unused enhancers, (L) mindforce chips I can't decide if to sell, carry or put in storage.

If you hunt on a place like Next Island you pretty soon get 20 different sorts of crystals. And pretty often you get ammo, and when the looted stack is to small to fit into gun it just gets hanging around. So let's say 5 stacks of (same) ammo isn't rare. At that point the ammo needs to be joined. And when number of loots gets too high, you do something just to keep on moving like put stuff in a vehicle. To avoid getting risk of getting stuff lootd, I usaully put things like extra weaons there though so I don't forget anything lootable.

(Other planets have their sorts of stackables. On Calypso it was first the oils, then the extractors, then the tier components.)

If you have <200 items, you run normally, no slowdown.
If you have >200 items, you immediately walk *slow*.

But that is beside the point. When entering space you are entering a different game. Space is a game featuring lootable PVP, and so one should always enter it well prepared.

Well first the obvious: You have never gotten a summon in the middle of a hunt? Or you're always carrying around a Portable Storage Terminal to be prepared?

Secondly: We all do mistakes. Forget to check every box, every vehicle. I'm carrying around a variable amount of vehicles; but let's say at least quad (to travel fast), vtol (if it's easier to spawn), boat (well coolness, and it's got a nice storage), and some sort of car (to spawn fast on ground).
And I got 5-6 "boxes" for carried items and things like bank deeds.

As space "features" lootable pvp, and it's very easy to get there, it wouldn't be bad if there was some easily accessible function that could warn you about the carried items you're about to lose. And maybe even a button that would move all your lootable stackables into storage on planet (including stackables you don't immediately see, like stackables in boxes).

As for lootable pvp, it has historically been for professionals: When you grab the antitoxic shot from trade terminal, you know what you're getting into. And if you don't grab the antitoxic shot, you're safe. Except for space. If you fly to space with someone else you get a warning but no chance to bail out.

Once upon a time there were even signs put up at some places on the borders of pvp areas (even non lootable) (well actually no signs put up around rig are).