Why Skills Matter in a TT Loot Theory

[Futurama]

Here's a little secret: My wife has been using an Ep-40 for months now. Stared @ lvl 8 laser pistol. She's now lvl 23.

Her returns? About 93%ish

However, as I showed above, 93% for two different people doesn't actually mean they made the same profit/loss.

Is it documented? Not saying you are not saying the truth, i`m just very, very curious...

 

[remontoire]

Aren't we assuming that loot is dependent on TT spent, for this comparison? If so then it doesn't matter how much it costs you to do damage because you'll get it back in the loot. You will have to hunt somewhat fewer mobs to spend the same amount of money because each mob costs more, but the % return is still the same. That's why I was comparing comparable dps setups.

If as I currently believe, loot is dependent on damage done, then of course the (L) weapons will always be better.

No. Damage and dps still matters in two ways :

• you must hunt some minimal number of a mob to get the TT back, so higher skills gives higher damage gives smaller buffer needed till you get tt back
• higher damage means lower defence costs as the mob dioes faster

The million HP thing directly came out of it - if you must kill say 10K of some mob with 100HP to be guaranteed TT back, you have that 10^6 HP to be removed. In one case you can start out with 1200 less PEDs than in the other. And it scales linearily with the amount of mobs/HP. And that is before taking defence costs into account.

 

[JohnCapital]

Is it documented? Not saying you are not saying the truth, i`m just very, very curious...

I know. It was weird for us to see too. Yes we tracked her loots for a while, and yes they fluctuated before and after ubers, etc. but in the end they were around 93% when we stopped tracking.

However, I will say that does include her crafting, mining, etc. She's not into just doing one thing. So just tracking only one activity makes for strange logs.

And it scales linearily with the amount of mobs/HP.

And this is a very important part. Any decent loot theory must be scalable for the lowest and highest mobs. The total beginner and the total ubers. For any regen/health/weapon combo that can be conceived.

If a loot theory works for opalo on bibos, but doesn't make sense on hunting dasp stalkers, then there's likely a flaw.

 

[Oleg]

And this is a very important part. Any decent loot theory must be scalable for the lowest and highest mobs. The total beginner and the total ubers. For any regen/health/weapon combo that can be conceived.

If a loot theory works for opalo on bibos, but doesn't make sense on hunting dasp stalkers, then there's likely a flaw.

Why can't there be differences in the looting behaviour of different mobs?

If there is no difference, why do I frequently get no-loots and fragments from Longtooth but not from Ambulimax?

 

[PrinceYumil]

BOOM! Oleg to the rescue

 

[hogfather]

Why can't there be differences in the looting behaviour of different mobs?

If there is no difference, why do I frequently get no-loots and fragments from Longtooth but not from Ambulimax?

In terms of TT-spend vs TT-returned, it doesn't really make any difference if you get 1 or 10 or 1000 no-loots and fragments, as long as you get the same percentage back in the long run.

 

[Oleg]

In terms of TT-spend vs TT-returned, it doesn't really make any difference if you get 1 or 10 or 1000 no-loots and fragments, as long as you get the same percentage back in the long run.

This may be true, but it doesn't answer my question.

 

[JohnCapital]

Why can't there be differences in the looting behaviour of different mobs?

If there is no difference, why do I frequently get no-loots and fragments from Longtooth but not from Ambulimax?

I didn't say there weren't differences in distribution, only that in the long run, the TT return will be similar. However, what that TT is made of makes a big difference.

I refer you back to the May '07 Q&A

Here are the Balancing Manager's responses to the Q&A.

Post 99
Why do some mobs loot a large variety of items while other mobs loot only 1 or 2 items?
Submitted by Chilly

All creatures have different benefits and drawbacks.

LTs drop many, many items, most of which are 200 ped or more, so they require a big buildup of loss before they can "pop".

I noticed on LTs I required about 500-600 ped worth of ammo+decay on them before the 1st global, whereas ambu can pop much earlier, dropping a standard 53 ped oil bath.

But note on both, you get your TT back in the end. One just takes longer to start seeing results.

 

[Alex Mart]

Nice teory.

How about little experiment with shooting half shoots to the air
to prove it?

 

[DoubleWolf]

How about little experiment with shooting half shoots to the air to prove it?

Kind of the same as killing a bunch of mobs and not looting them. When you do start looting them, your loot doesn't improve to make up for it.

Looting a mob, and the result from that, has to factor in to this somehow. Like any mob you pump peds into but don't attempt to generate loot from will not count toward your results. In essence, it's like shooting at the sky and not "claiming" those peds wasted. By looting the mob, you're "claiming" those peds spent.

The fact that the person who does the most damage to a mob gets it claimed as their own and no one else is able to loot it, even if they deliver the kill shot, kind of supports this in my mind. At least from an accounting perspective...

 

[aridash]

Kind of the same as killing a bunch of mobs and not looting them. When you do start looting them, your loot doesn't improve to make up for it.

this raises an interesting issue. if shooting into air isnt counted towards loot, that means its counted only on the mob. but then the system must count twice, for the damage done and the shots/costs expended. note, the ability to loot is determined by 51% damage dealt, so it there must be a damage count. does duplication of effort make sence to do?

this is brought into focus with teaming where "damage decides". is it really cost decided? because that would mean an uneconomical team member would take more loot.

 

[JohnCapital]

this raises an interesting issue. if shooting into air isnt counted towards loot, that means its counted only on the mob. but then the system must count twice, for the damage done and the shots/costs expended. note, the ability to loot is determined by 51% damage dealt, so it there must be a damage count. does duplication of effort make sence to do?

this is brought into focus with teaming where "damage decides". is it really cost decided? because that would mean an uneconomical team member would take more loot.

The problem is that dmg. det. ideas account for variable loot on high regen mobs, but falls when considering, say, snable (M) or sabakuma young. Not a lot of variation on the amount of damage you can to a mob of only 20 health.

Also dmg, det. theories fail to explain situations like https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/hunting/194196-too-big-amp-test.html

I believe the system does track both decay spent and dmg done. However, one is an accounting issue. The other is game-play. Except in dmg. det. team settings, where it must be tweaked slightly. (I already covered team issue in an above post.)

We must also remember that there are other team settings like "looter gets all", etc. So not sure how the different team settings affect the loot accounting, regardless of which theories you believe in.

 

[Oleg]

I didn't say there weren't differences in distribution, only that in the long run, the TT return will be similar. However, what that TT is made of makes a big difference.

But your previous statement said that any loot theory must apply to all mobs, which implies that the loot algorithm is the same for all mobs. The Longtooth/Ambu example demonstrates, in my opinion, that it isn't.

The problem is that dmg. det. ideas account for variable loot on high regen mobs, but falls when considering, say, snable (M) or sabakuma young. Not a lot of variation on the amount of damage you can to a mob of only 20 health.

And thus if you analysed the value of individual loots on snablesnots you would find little or no variation in the value ranges of the loot, unless you did something extreme like taking it down to 1 HP and waiting for the mob to fully regenerate, several times.

I won't bother repeating my comment about your amp test with two data points

 

[aridash]

I believe the system does track both decay spent and dmg done. However, one is an accounting issue. The other is game-play. Except in dmg. det. team settings, where it must be tweaked slightly. (I already covered team issue in an above post.)

nevermind accounting or gameplay, from systems background i see it as an unecessary complication. if as you suggest it is "tweeked" for teams, thats another branch of code to maintain and adjust with each balancing change.

(i assume "decay spent" is a mistake and you mean cost?)

also... you raise another issue: overkill. does the overkill cost not count? im not judging the theory either way, just highlighting its certainly becoming a more and more complex system than simply counting damage and going from there.

 

[Profit]

But your previous statement said that any loot theory must apply to all mobs, which implies that the loot algorithm is the same for all mobs. The Longtooth/Ambu example demonstrates, in my opinion, that it isn't.

The longtooth/Ambu example is an example where the loot tables of one mob (longtooth) hold higher TT items such as the Bicak's etc... that are dropping at a relatively fast rate from LT likely due to the fact they're only here momentarily (see the multiple hofs last 2 weeks containing such items) which would mean that the lower TT items such as oils etc which drop frequently (or "common" classification) in Ambu where high TT items are less common (or "rare" classification), are probably not in such a "common" classification for the LT loot table.
This would mean that there'd have to be more "no-looters" in LT in order for the system to justify forcing the high minimum TT item drop, whereas Ambu's can quite happily pump out multiple low TT values in most loot events without having to worry about many large TT items ever dropping.

 

[JohnCapital]

But your previous statement said that any loot theory must apply to all mobs, which implies that the loot algorithm is the same for all mobs. The Longtooth/Ambu example demonstrates, in my opinion, that it isn't.

I did not say, nor did I mean that all mobs loot exactly the same. What I said was that in the long run, the TT back is in proportion to TT in.

That idea does allow for differences in immediate distribution. Whether it's a large build up like on LTs, or quicker returns on ambu, or a more steady stream, on exa youngs.

On all three of these mobs, 2,000 ped of ammo/decay will see ~1,800-1,900 TT in loot. However, since LTs often loot 200 ped items, and exa youngs don't, you see a much wider swing of no-loots to big loot. And this fits just fine within the TT loot theory.

However, I often have an issue w/ folks who make theories about getting lucky globals on exa., because "lucky globals" never fit the looting pattern of dasp for example, where globals keep you from seeing a 20% return.

Hopefully that explains what I meant better.

 

[Oleg]

The longtooth/Ambu example is an example where the loot tables of one mob (longtooth) hold higher TT items such as the Bicak's etc... that are dropping at a relatively fast rate from LT likely due to the fact they're only here momentarily (see the multiple hofs last 2 weeks containing such items) which would mean that the lower TT items such as oils etc which drop frequently (or "common" classification) in Ambu where high TT items are less common (or "rare" classification), are probably not in such a "common" classification for the LT loot table.
This would mean that there'd have to be more "no-looters" in LT in order for the system to justify forcing the high minimum TT item drop, whereas Ambu's can quite happily pump out multiple low TT values in most loot events without having to worry about many large TT items ever dropping.

Exactly, different mobs work in different ways.

I did not say, nor did I mean that all mobs loot exactly the same. What I said was that in the long run, the TT back is in proportion to TT in.

In the original comment that I was responding to you spoke about all loot theory, and that's the part that I disagree with. It may apply to this particular loot theory, or this particular aspect of loot theory, but it can't apply to all loot theory, for the reason I've highlighted.

 

[Xen]

I am still waiting for someone to put his money where his mouth is and take a Swine Deluxe and does some hardcore hunting.

That's what I'm waiting for also. And it should be someone who believes the tt return theory. ep-40 used by a noob doesn't cut it.

 

[DoubleWolf]

Exactly, different mobs work in different ways.

In the original comment that I was responding to you spoke about all loot theory, and that's the part that I disagree with. It may apply to this particular loot theory, or this particular aspect of loot theory, but it can't apply to all loot theory, for the reason I've highlighted.

If you're talking about what items appear in the loot, then you would be correct. But I don't think JC is talking about the "loot algorithm" but more about the "TT value algorithm" where over a given amount of time, ALL mobs will return approximately the same TT % for money spent. It may get returned in different ways, but the TT % remains the same. So mobs can be different AND similar... and the theory still applies...

 

[JohnCapital]

Exactly, different mobs work in different ways.

We completely agree.

In the original comment that I was responding to you spoke about all loot theory, and that's the part that I disagree with.

Obviously we had a miscommunication issue. I'll apologize for that since my comment was not clear enough.

 

[aridash]

the more i think about it, the more i really want this theory to be correct. if i understand correctly, find a low regen that doesnt hit me much and use a uneco weapon i get more back. even if i technically see a slightly higher cost, the higher tt value return might well see higher quality/MU returned?

i would like to see the same calculations for a player using eco/uneco weapons. it might be usfull to plug in the swine numbers to see where they go theoretically.

 

[Igorl]

Only thing OPs post concludes is:

You need 10/10 HA to be a high roller in this casino, where ticket to being one costs 50k$+ (for some reason)

Too expencive IMO

Now do the same calculation with:

Small dick newbboy
and
Big dick uberboy

doing snable young with maxed opallo

- and that will be fair calculation

Regards

I.

 

[remontoire]

Why can't there be differences in the looting behaviour of different mobs?

If there is no difference, why do I frequently get no-loots and fragments from Longtooth but not from Ambulimax?

Broadly speaking, there are two types of loot theories:

• loot theories based on what you spend / do
• theories based on loot distribution of mobs

The first are not concerned about what a certain mob loots / doesn't loot, but how much return you get on TT spent / damage done / miles walked / whatever (or total for some amounts of above), the later try to provide a formula for how your loot curve will look like. Both must cover hunting any mob. Only the second type of theories needs to care about the fact that some mobs never have no looters.

Oh, and of course the "its all random/dynamic" theories, these only need to have a valid counterexample for any test showing consistency

 

[Salerno]

armor decay

So im wondering..

Ill use my own account for this example..

I now have CB24 sib (level 25 dmg, 26 hit) and I got almost full Bear armor UL.

I usually only hunt atrox and when I am just hanging around having some fun I tend to go to big atrox or feffoids.

According to your theory I should be using the CB24 and wearing my Bear armor.

But what if I easily manage to keep away the atrox with my pixie SGA? The decay costs are lower but I don't tend to see a downward spiral of loot either. (Maybe thats because running arround -200/-300 per run doesnt really get any lower ).

Tell me.

Other than that, I must say u put some nice effort into this and it was really nice to read about it!

- Salerno

 

[Hotei]

Salerno,

Using the same weapon with lower armor decay should get better returns (in theory)... however when u drop down the armor, how much do your fap costs increase?

Just a thought??

Hotei

 

[Dr.D.C.]

Disclaimer: This post is based on the loot theory that the TT of loot received is in direct proportion of TT spent. If you do not believe this theory, then this is simply a nice mental/math exercise, which is fine too.
..............

what about hunting exo or coimbo????

cheers

 

[Jennson]

...

But what if I easily manage to keep away the atrox with my pixie SGA? The decay costs are lower but I don't tend to see a downward spiral of loot either. (Maybe thats because running arround -200/-300 per run doesnt really get any lower ).

Tell me.
...

Disclaimer: This post is based on the loot theory that the TT of loot received is in direct proportion of TT spent. If you do not believe this theory, then this is simply a nice mental/math exercise, which is fine too.

I thought i point that out...

Regards

 

[JohnCapital]

what about hunting exo or coimbo????

Regardless of the loot theory, what you hunt shouldn't change the basics of it. (Trying to avoid the previous loot distribution debate.)

According to how I understand loot atm, (always subject to change of course) your TT return is based on your TT spend, regardless whether you hunt, mine, or craft small items or big.

 

[Wolverine Queen]

Only thing OPs post concludes is:

You need 10/10 HA to be a high roller in this casino, where ticket to being one costs 50k$+ (for some reason)

Not really.

You can play really eco using some maxed out UL sib weapon and good mob of choice.

 

[Wolverine Queen]

So im wondering..

Ill use my own account for this example..

I now have CB24 sib (level 25 dmg, 26 hit) and I got almost full Bear armor UL.

I usually only hunt atrox and when I am just hanging around having some fun I tend to go to big atrox or feffoids.

According to your theory I should be using the CB24 and wearing my Bear armor.

But what if I easily manage to keep away the atrox with my pixie SGA? The decay costs are lower but I don't tend to see a downward spiral of loot either. (Maybe thats because running arround -200/-300 per run doesnt really get any lower ).

Tell me.

Other than that, I must say u put some nice effort into this and it was really nice to read about it!

- Salerno

Use the combination which gives you the smallest possible armor + fap decay combo.