A look at the loot pool

Mikeemooo

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Ignore the first 4 pages and jump straight to page 5 :)

This is my advice for hunting argonauts.

This is JUST my view. I'm not saying "this is how everyone should do it", I'm just saying the way I do it, and my reasoning behind it.

Weapons:

Of course this depends on what you're trying to skill up. Using Melee will give you more a higher return in skill value, but if you're more interested in lower skills and better returns, I suggest using three different ranged weapons (yep, three!)

To start with, the more eco the better, but don't concentrate too much on that. If you have a choice between two, take the more eco one.

If you choose to use a rifle, having around 25 dmg/sec or more. This may seem like too much, but I'll explain my reasoning. If you have a pistol, then a whooping 40-50 dmg/sec. Crazy huh?

Overkill doesn't appear to be compensated for at all, so on a mob like argonaut with low regen and low health, it makes a lot of sense to reduce your overkill to the smallest amount you can.

First I use my main weapon to take as much damage off the mob as possible. I try to reduce its health so that there's around one shot left.

Then I switch to Opalo + A101, again, take off shots until I can no longer shoot without killing it.

Finally, switch to the unamped M2100 (TT pistol) and finish it off.

Make sure you're walking backwards the entire time (well, up until it reaches you).

You should kill it at about the same time it reaches you. There's a chance it'll hit you once, especially if you have missed shots, but most of the time it'll die just before hitting you.

Armor

If you hunt smart you can do this without armor. For the last few runs I've not used armor at all and I've been completely find. If you have enough DPS on your initial few shots you will never get hit.
If you find you still need armor, try Settler + 4B. If you're still struggling, try Explorer + 2C.

Fap

Again, if you have enough dps you'll not need this. If you take a fap, just take the most eco you have. I use fap-5, but a TT vivo will do the same. If you have better use it.
I've recently been taking a regeneration chip but that's mostly just for the small skill increase I get.

The loot you should expect

I do runs of 200. Each mob costs me about 1.08 PED to kill and I usually get around around 210 - 218 PED back per run, plus about 4 PED of markup (lots of iron).

This can vary a lot. Some runs I'll get 120 PED back, others I'll get 300 PED back.

By the end of the 200 mobs my inventory is heavy enough to make me walk slow. I usually stick a load of the iron in my vehicle and let it get returned so I don't get slowed down too much at the end.

So:

Armor decay, fap decay and overkill do not appear to be compensated for. Aside from a slight skill increase from fapping and evade, I think that money is pure loss. Straight to MA.

1) Don't get hit
2) Don't fap
3) Have the smallest amount of overkill you can (~2 dmg)

If you're happy to lose a bit more for those extra skills, either switch to a lower dps weapon, take more than one mob on at a time and wear some armor. But beware: getting hit is double the cost. the cost of fap and the cost of armor decay.

When using melee my 1500 evade (at the time) increased by around 5 points per 200 mobs, my 4000 anatomy increased by about 4 points, and my 2500 first aid increased by about 1.5 points, but that cost about 8-10 ped in additional armor costs which reduced my return by about 5%.
 
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A very precise work and interesting results.
For sure, it isn,t possible to generalize your results for all players, because the factor luck will not work for all in the same way :)
On the other hand, and I don,t have made such labour-intensive excel, I thought immediately...that could be me....when I,ve checked your Feffrun.

ty for your efforts (to make things clearer).
 
Just some observations:

Loss is very consistent. Each mob seems to have its own loss rate (well, its ammo burn!) and it rarely deviates from that line. I'm also pretty sure that it's impossible to profit from "general loot" - as in, every mob making 1-2 ped profit. This just doesn't happen - and people who state that it does (see other threads) are wrong (from the data SO FAR).

Profit seems to only come from 5% of mobs killed. this 5% ranges from 10ped+. Anything else is either loss or <1ped profit.

It's probably better to illustrate with pictures.

Here's every single 1000 mobs (evis) sorted by profit/loss. When looting, you can imagine closing your eyes and randomly choosing a point along the X axis. That's your loot.

profit2.gif


The results for feffoids so far have been almost exactly the same shape.

profit.gif


Notice how similar they are? but keeping in mind that im only half way through the feffoid run.

It'll be interesting to see how the shape changes (if at all) as I get closer to the end of the feff run.
 
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Using a delta+beast and claiming TT profit is impossible.

Your work is anal yet flawed, well done son!
 
Using a delta+beast and claiming TT profit is impossible.

Your work is anal yet flawed, well done son!

I'm not entirely sure the point you're trying to make. This is entirely market value. TT value is never even recorded.

Please elaborate.

Regarding using delta+beast - I purposely used that combo for 25% of my first test to see the difference between that and the (L) weapons. Did you view past the first 10 records?
 
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Interesting to note that a lot of the profit on the feffs is built into the minis.

minis.gif


Most of these are caused by the high amount of small value items that are dropped. After 550 feffs I've already had this drop list:

Code:
Item					Quantity
-------------------------------------------------
Thunderbird Helmet (F,L)		2
Thunderbird Helmet (M,L)		3
Thunderbird Arm Guards (M,L)		1
Riker UL1 (L)				2
Korss H400 (L)				2
Lacerating Strike Chip III (L)		3
Cryogenic Attack Chip I (L)		4
 
Using a delta+beast and claiming TT profit is impossible.

Your work is anal yet flawed, well done son!

Using most super eco setup with 10/10 skills and claiming TT profit is also impossible. ;)
 
Using most super eco setup with 10/10 skills and claiming TT profit is also impossible. ;)

1 point to Mikass ;)

btw... what is profit? :scratch2::confused: :dunce: ...oh wait!
 
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While I can appreciate the work you've put into all of this, I cannot wrap my head around the "method" you've used.
If I understood correctly, a sudden increase or decrease in MU for an item irrelevant to the hunts is affecting you +/-? Why do you think this method makes sense to
...try to have a clearer understanding of where the costs of playing are, how armour and weapons really effect your game play, and really try to get a clear understanding of the costs of the different mobs, how much you can expect to lose (or win)...
Personally, I would've much rather see weapon/armour/fap decay+ammo and total TT loot; I'm not asking for ANY other reason than trying to understand the value in this test. I might have miss something... it's been known to happen :laugh:.
 
I think you may be missing something ;)

If I record the value of my inventory before and after each kill, I can detect the exact decay and loss of ammo for that single kill.

Instead of just recording TT value, I decided to convert the values into market value, because it gives a clearer understanding of the actual cost of each kill (or winnings each kill).

So, for example, before a kill I have the following in my inventory:

Code:
	Item			Quantity	TT			Market

1	Kobold Gloves (M)	1		16.29 PED		17.09 PED
2	Emik T10 (L)		1		171.54 PED		215.78 PED
3	Light BLP Pack		3610		0.36 PED		0.36 PED

Which totals 233.23 PED

I then kill the mob and check again, which gives me...

Code:
	Item			Quantity	TT			Market

1	Kobold Gloves (M)	1		16.19 PED		16.99 PED
2	Emik T10 (L)		1		171.51 PED		215.74 PED
3	Light BLP Pack		1610		0.16 PED		0.16 PED
4	Wool			13		2.60 PED		2.65 PED

I lost some ammo and decay, but gained some wool.
I know that overall, taking ammo loss and decay into consideration, I've still gained 2.31 PED profit.

Using market value gives a better understanding of the ACTUAL profit/loss - provided you can sell everything at market value (which of course isn't always possible).

I'm not trying to crack the TT system and confirm that "90%", I'm trying to find which mobs (and equipment) are more profitable (or less expensive) to hunt. :)
 
Nice work, keep it up!
 
Why are you adding the market value of your Kobold? Is that done for each kill? It only makes sense to do that if it is an L item but even then it can skew the results if the MV changes during your tests.
 
Why are you adding the market value of your Kobold? Is that done for each kill? It only makes sense to do that if it is an L item but even then it can skew the results if the MV changes during your tests.

It makes no difference if I add the market value or not. I've done it for all items simply because it was easier to do. It doesn't skew the results at all.

Regarding the MV changing during tests - this wont happen, because the market values are not updated during kills. I haven't updated the market values since the start of the tests (because they haven't changed much at all)
 
Interesting to note that after posting this on the forum, the feff area became noticeably busier, and at the same time it seems my loot is now on a really bad downwards slope. Probably just a coincidence.
 
Interesting, I did something similar a long time ago on small mobs, it was slow going (but kept fapping in between mobs down due to natural regen). I hope you plan to do some of the normal regen mobs and mobs with a much higher no-loot percentage to show some different graphs. Showing only base loot would be a good way to compare different weapon sets to show if and how eco matters, but on those mobs I'd drop the threshold to maybe 8 ped? "mini" loots on feffs can be around 10 ped or so.
 
I'll do a more detailed report once I've finished off these feffs (~100 left, should be done soon).
http://entropia.mikeefranklin.co.uk/ <-- the "chart" REALLY shows off either extreme luck and bad luck, OR some other factors influencing the loot (mob timers, personal timers, personal loot correction/fluctuations - your guess is as bad as mine). The last global was 400 mobs ago, yet I got 5 globals in the first 130 mobs. Very very odd.

If you consider every loot being a random pick from the charts I posted in the one of the previous posts, I'm pretty sure that the probability of getting 400 non-global mobs is almost impossibly low. Something else is at work.

Karmic - next mob will be a very low level mob. I'm thinking about daki / exo or maybe some merps. I'd really appreciate if anyone has any suggestions for the next mob and the gear I should use. I'd like to stick to a BLP pistol as my weapon.
 
The last global was 400 mobs ago, yet I got 5 globals in the first 130 mobs. Very very odd.

no, it really isnt. bloody annoying, frustrating as hell, but not really very odd.
 
Using most super eco setup with 10/10 skills and claiming TT profit is also impossible. ;)

Aww bless.

Not only have I personally done so, I know plenty who also have.

noskills + delta+beast, or t10+tac60 at markup is a fun way to lose peds. This whole set of data at best gives you a general view of average loot on feffoids. Wowz0r.
 
Will you be willing to try low level mobs in a taxed land area and out of taxed land area, like 50/50?. Just to see how taxes affect the loot.

Maybe cornundacaudas

By the way, are you doing the iron missions at the same time? if you are, are you taking into account TT and MU of the skills/fragments you recieve as a reward?
 
Will you be willing to try low level mobs in a taxed land area and out of taxed land area, like 50/50?. Just to see how taxes affect the loot.

Maybe cornundacaudas

By the way, are you doing the iron missions at the same time? if you are, are you taking into account TT and MU of the skills/fragments you recieve as a reward?

I'll probably stay away from taxable land to be honest. Maybe I'll do some of them once i've completed a few more mob types.

Yeah - I'm doing the iron missions at the same time, but not taking into account any of the rewards.
 
Aww bless.

Not only have I personally done so, I know plenty who also have.

noskills + delta+beast, or t10+tac60 at markup is a fun way to lose peds. This whole set of data at best gives you a general view of average loot on feffoids. Wowz0r.

Indeed. That's exactly what I'm trying to do.

I want to try to have a clearer understanding of where the costs of playing are, how armour and weapons really effect your game play, and really try to get a clear understanding of the costs of the different mobs, how much you can expect to lose (or win).

You seem to have some ego problem and for some reason you are spreading it all over this thread. This thread has nothing to do with what you can achieve with top items and top skills, it's aimed at average players with average skills and average items.

If you could be so kind, sir, I'd really appreciate it if you could move these loaded posts into a separate thread, because not to be rude, but I don't really want people to have to sift through irrelevant ego in order to get to the data.

Thanks..
 
1000 feffs done - will compile the data and contrast the two mobs a bit tomorrow.

Drop list for the 1000 feffs:

Code:
Thunderbird Helmet (F,L)
Thunderbird Helmet (F,L)
Thunderbird Helmet (M,L)
Thunderbird Helmet (M,L)
Thunderbird Helmet (M,L)
Thunderbird Arm Guards (M,L)
Thunderbird Arm Guards (F,L)
Thunderbird Arm Guards (F,L)
Riker UL1 (L)
Riker UL1 (L)
Korss H400 (L)
Korss H400 (L)
Lacerating Strike Chip III (L)
Lacerating Strike Chip III (L)
Lacerating Strike Chip III (L)
Lacerating Strike Chip III (L)
Cryogenic Attack Chip I (L)
Cryogenic Attack Chip I (L)
Cryogenic Attack Chip I (L)
Cryogenic Attack Chip I (L)
Cryogenic Attack Chip I (L)
Cryogenic Attack Chip I (L)
 
1. Thank you for the answer(s)
2. Waiting for the data
3. 400 Feffs without a global is a more than "very very odd" IMO.
 
Verry verry interesting.

Can't you/we scale this experiment up? I for one would love to help!
Meybe you can organize more people to do different/same mobs to expand the size of this test.
Select a group of people who are willing to preform the same tests and relay the data to you?!

Again, a would love to help!

Cheers Sway.
 
Sway - I was just about to post that very idea.

The only problem I can see is that it's not an easy job to do. Although I know it's possible to make this all automatic (you can read memory undetected), I don't want to because I don't want to risk a ban.

I can also make the software automatically log into the Entropia site to get the data, but I wouldn't want anyone to run any software that interacts in any way with their account (whether it's the site or the game).

The solution I can offer isn't the cleanest, but it's the best I can think of. I basically have a web form available where you select everything from a dropdown list, then copy/paste your inventory list before and after each mob. The dropdowns default back to whatever values you had last time you submitted it, so it's quite easy to do.

It does involve a hell of a lot of tabbing around, though, and playing in windowed mode!

I'd quite like to have many many people doing the same mob at the same time. Maybe in different areas, but all with the same armor and similar weapons.

If people are interested in this, I can make it multi-user and clean up the interface a bit so it's a bit easier to enter the data.
 
The only problem I can see is that it's not an easy job to do.

The solution I can offer isn't the cleanest, but it's the best I can think of. I basically have a web form available where you select everything from a dropdown list, then copy/paste your inventory list before and after each mob. The dropdowns default back to whatever values you had last time you submitted it, so it's quite easy to do.

It does involve a hell of a lot of tabbing around, though, and playing in windowed mode!

Doesn't sound so difficult.... you just need people who are as dedicated as you are. (wich I think some people on the forum are.) You got my full support, just tell me exactly what and how you want me to do things ;)
 
Ok, I'll post some images as I create them and in between doing work!!

profitlossfeffs.gif



If you look at it like this, the distribution of globals isn't actually too crazy.

Someone who loves theories could even draw a sine wave over it.... ;)
 
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