Regeneration speed analysis

Dr.D.C.

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I was trying to make an order to the available data about mob regeneration. I went on entropedia to the Armor vs mob page and ordered the info based on reg speed. Then i was trying to found out a coorelation between the reg speed and the other available data.

Here the first set:



so reg speed don t look to correlate with any of those parameters

second set



in this case look like there is a correlation between reg speed and danger level. It looks even better is log scale



probably the coorelation will get better dividing the mobs in two groups or 3 groups, like under danger level 20 and upper....or similar.

Im writing this looking for help to someone skilled more than me in this kind of analysis.
thx
DC
 
The danger level thingie looks like a match, somewhat, but not all mobs are regen mobs, and that's why i think it is not that simple...

However, the regen rate can be calculated from the total damage needed to kill a mob, which is quite easy to calculate from the damage messages in the chat log.
 
...However, the regen rate can be calculated from the total damage needed to kill a mob, which is quite easy to calculate from the damage messages in the chat log.

Can you please explain more?

If I kill a young Trox (990 HP) with P4a or Apis, the damage messages won't help me much. :scratch2:
- With P4a+A104, I will need 75s to take it down, and that will represent 1728 HP (175% of original HP).
- With Apis+Beast, I will need 24s to take it down, and that will represent 1224 Hp (124% of original HP).
These are average figures counting no "Failed" no fapping, only the 8% MISS.

So far I didnt find better way that hitting a mob down to 5~10%, hit timestamp, screenshot, wait in VTOL until full regen, then second time stamp, second screenshot and HP bar analysis etc...
 
Can you please explain more?

If I kill a young Trox (990 HP) with P4a or Apis, the damage messages won't help me much. :scratch2:
- With P4a+A104, I will need 75s to take it down, and that will represent 1728 HP (175% of original HP).
- With Apis+Beast, I will need 24s to take it down, and that will represent 1224 Hp (124% of original HP).
These are average figures counting no "Failed" no fapping, only the 8% MISS.

So far I didnt find better way that hitting a mob down to 5~10%, hit timestamp, screenshot, wait in VTOL until full regen, then second time stamp, second screenshot and HP bar analysis etc...

Calculating the regen rate requires 2 things:

An exact time frame
The amount of health regenerated within that time frame


Regen rate = regenerated HP / time frame




The time frame doesn't have to be a predetermined time span as long as we got exact figures.

We simply take the timestamp from first damage message (that's where regen kicks in) and the timestamp from the last damage message (the one that killed the mob) - the difference between these timestamps is our time frame.



The amount of health regenerated is equal to the total damage dealt within the timeframe minus the original HP of the mob - the last damage message doesn't show how much you potentially inflicted, but the real damage taken by the mob (the health that's left), so we have pretty exact numbers here, too (0.1 HP precision)


You can repeat this test several times, with three different time frames. Especially long timeframes will give you very nice results.
 
Calculating the regen rate requires 2 things:

An exact time frame
The amount of health regenerated within that time frame


Regen rate = regenerated HP / time frame




The time frame doesn't have to be a predetermined time span as long as we got exact figures.

We simply take the timestamp from first damage message (that's where regen kicks in) and the timestamp from the last damage message (the one that killed the mob) - the difference between these timestamps is our time frame.



The amount of health regenerated is equal to the total damage dealt within the timeframe minus the original HP of the mob - the last damage message doesn't show how much you potentially inflicted, but the real damage taken by the mob (the health that's left), so we have pretty exact numbers here, too (0.1 HP precision)


You can repeat this test several times, with three different time frames. Especially long timeframes will give you very nice results.

so let say
the time frame to kill a mob is x1-x10 (and x2, x3, x4 are fraction of this time)
the mob has y health points
i make y damage in x1-x4 (t1)
the damage that i inflict in x4-x10 (z) is the mob regeneration during the time x4-x10 (t2)
so the regeneration in z/t2; correct?
 
so let say
the time frame to kill a mob is x1-x10 (and x2, x3, x4 are fraction of this time)
the mob has y health points
i make y damage in x1-x4 (t1)
the damage that i inflict in x4-x10 (z) is the mob regeneration during the time x4-x10 (t2)
so the regeneration in z/t2; correct?

No, you can't really decide which HP were generated in a fraction of the time, you need the full sum of the damage messages to calculate the HP the mob had the moment it died.

Let's say you caused 200 HP damage in t1 - it is not possible to say which of the lost HP were regenerated and which were "original HP", not before you have an end point (the moment you kill it and know how many HPs were left)


The example you've posted only works when the damage inflicted within t1 is exactly the mobs "original (base) health".


Once you know the regen rate you can exactly tell how many HP a mob has at x2, x3 or x4.
 
Regeneration speed is a very large factor in the mob 'danger level' along with damage, so that would definitely have at least a loose correlation. No other scannable statistic is related to regen speed (same with damage). We just have to manually test for this at the moment, until we know the exact formula for mob danger level, and even then, that would be subject to rounding error.
 
No, you can't really decide which HP were generated in a fraction of the time, you need the full sum of the damage messages to calculate the HP the mob had the moment it died.

Let's say you caused 200 HP damage in t1 - it is not possible to say which of the lost HP were regenerated and which were "original HP", not before you have an end point (the moment you kill it and know how many HPs were left)


The example you've posted only works when the damage inflicted within t1 is exactly the mobs "original (base) health".


Once you know the regen rate you can exactly tell how many HP a mob has at x2, x3 or x4.

i got your point but we consider t1 like the time to generate y damage, whatever in t1 the mob has still a lot of hp in effect generate by...regeneration. I guess like usual we are getting the same result using 2 different methods :)
 
Regeneration speed is a very large factor in the mob 'danger level' along with damage, so that would definitely have at least a loose correlation. No other scannable statistic is related to regen speed (same with damage). We just have to manually test for this at the moment, until we know the exact formula for mob danger level, and even then, that would be subject to rounding error.

in effect the r2 for that equation is 0.8....that is huge. But damn it looks nice :)
i was also wandering, how much correct are the regeneration data present in entropedia????
Dunno if them coming from multiple inputs...............
 
i got your point but we consider t1 like the time to generate y damage, whatever in t1 the mob has still a lot of hp in effect generate by...regeneration. I guess like usual we are getting the same result using 2 different methods :)

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same here - damage is generated instantly, there is no timespan for generating damage.


Dunno if them coming from multiple inputs...............

Likely, altho i doubt there are many people who are working on these data.

Everyone can edit entropedia, and all changes are recorded - you can find out who entered the values by opening the mob vs. maturity table and click on the "History" Tab - search for changes to the "Regen. Speed" column.
 
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same here - damage is generated instantly, there is no timespan for generating damage.
i was considering the time to generate y damage (=mob hp)

Likely, altho i doubt there are many people who are working on these data.
Everyone can edit entropedia, and all changes are recorded - you can find out who entered the values by opening the mob vs. maturity table and click on the "History" Tab - search for changes to the "Regen. Speed" column.

yup i was just lazy to do it. I will do it, eventually

and blablabla to short
 
i was considering the time to generate y damage (=mob hp)

Ok, got it now - but how do you plan to generate damage exactly matching the base HP with weapons that do random (50% - 100% for SIB weapons) damage?
 
Ok, got it now - but how do you plan to generate damage exactly matching the base HP with weapons that do random (50% - 100% for SIB weapons) damage?

ofc we are just talking for talking but:

let say you have a mob 1000hp
you start shooting at time x1 and you end at x100
you calculate in progression the dmg inflict:
x1=20
x2=24
x3=15
x4=33
x5=10
.....
x36= you inflicted 1000 dmg (20+24+15+33......)
.....
.....
x100= mob is dead

than the dmg you inflict between x36 and x100 is the dmg necessary to balance the regeneration
the time between x36-x100 is the time necessary to balance the regeneration
so you divide the total dmg inflicted during x36-x100/time in sec between x36-x100

but hey this is just my guess, each hypothesis but be validate and if possible confirmed by an alternative method.
 
ofc we are just talking for talking but:

let say you have a mob 1000hp
you start shooting at time x1 and you end at x100
you calculate in progression the dmg inflict:
x1=20
x2=24
x3=15
x4=33
x5=10
.....
x36= you inflicted 1000 dmg (20+24+15+33......)
.....
.....
x100= mob is dead

than the dmg you inflict between x36 and x100 is the dmg necessary to balance the regeneration
the time between x36-x100 is the time necessary to balance the regeneration
so you divide the total dmg inflicted during x36-x100/time in sec between x36-x100

This is pretty much what i meant, just...

There is no way to make sure that x36 really takes you to 1000, it is more likely that the next shot will take you to 1002.3 or something like that.

And, you forget to count the regen in the interval x1-x36 (the mob will start regenerating from the first damage, in your example you count the full regen, but only the time after x36)

It is not necessary to make two intervals though, as we can simply subtract the base HP (1000 in your example) from the total damage dealt and have only pure regenerated health left.
 
This is pretty much what i meant, just...

There is no way to make sure that x36 really takes you to 1000, it is more likely that the next shot will take you to 1002.3 or something like that.

dude, about this you super right!!!!!

And, you forget to count the regen in the interval x1-x36 (the mob will start regenerating from the first damage, in your example you count the full regen, but only the time after x36)

about this, in the other hand, i don t see any problem. I mean the mob has 1000hp, you inflict 1000 dmg , all the extra damage you need to kill is to balance the regeneration.It s not important if you inflict the 1000dmg between x1-x36 or x25-x40 etcetc or if during shooting the mob regenerate. The mob has 1000 hp you inflict 1000dmg, all the rest is regeneration.

It is not necessary to make two intervals though, as we can simply subtract the base HP (1000 in your example) from the total damage dealt and have only pure regenerated health left.

now a pratical example: allophil alpha, hp 960

x1=Entropia Universe time: 2011-08-03 03:14:28
x100=Entropia Universe time: 2011-08-03 03:15:12
x1-x100=44 sec

tot dmg inflict 1351.3

dmg per sec inflict=1351/44=30.71dmg/sec

hp from regeneration=1351.3-960=391.3

regenerate=391.3/30.71=12.7

but entropedia say 9.6........................ grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
 
now a pratical example: allophil alpha, hp 960

x1=Entropia Universe time: 2011-08-03 03:14:28
x100=Entropia Universe time: 2011-08-03 03:15:12
x1-x100=44 sec

tot dmg inflict 1351.3

Everything fine so far :)

dmg per sec inflict=1351/44=30.71dmg/sec

Not needed to calculate this!

hp from regeneration=1351.3-960=391.3

regenerate=391.3/30.71=12.7

When you divide the HP regenerated by average dmg/sec you get the seconds you needed to inflict these damage - that's not what we want!!!

We calculate 391.3 / 44 = 8.8931
Which means that Allo Alphas regenerate ~8.9 HP every second.

(I told you regeneration starts with the first hit, not when the base health is gone!!!!)

but entropedia say 9.6........................ grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I think my result at ~8.9 is pretty close, no idea who put that 9.6 there, maybe it's not correct - or the base health is wrong (hard to get that correct on a regen mob, maybe the value is outdated meanwhile)


And:
422.4 / 44 would be 9.6, that's only 31.1 more damage dealt, if the person testing it used a very large weapon, producing much overkill, this result would be possible - or he had a couple of seconds lag (391.3 / 41 is ~ 9.6, too)
Or our timestamps are rounded very unlucky, this could account for up to 2 seconds difference, too.

However, to have precise numbers we should repeat the test, probably with a small finisher weapon...

Any idea who updated entropedia to the 9.6 ?


/Edit: Sure it was no allo dominant?
Entropedia value for dominant is exactly 8.9


/Edit2:
It seems like the testing for entropedia was done using a different method - someone shot it once and counted the seconds until it's health was full - or someone almost killed it and counted the seconds until it's health was full again - both methods are pretty unreliable (not sure if this was the case for allo alpha, too, i check entries for zombie bikers... all i could find so far).

We should simply repeat our test a couple of times and see if our result is stable and update entropedia with our values.


/Edit3:
Just found some more updates for Leviathan with this comment:

Assuming same regen as higher maturities as it seems linear.

So entropedia values could as well all be just guesses, i am pretty sure that hardly anyone did some real tests on all of the mobs.
 
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The problem with almost every test you've suggested is there are errors in the measurements. For one, the total damage done/etc is subject to overkill. For two, the mobs regenerate in ticks - and not uniformly. The ticks happen every 5 -15 seconds or so (depending on the mob I believe). So for your calculations you have to factor in the error you may have gained from overkill (potential overkill between 0 and damage you dealt on the last shot), and the fact that the regeneration 'timer' is different for every test. I believe the regeneration timer is uniform to the server or something, it definitely doesn't start when you first shoot it. Say a mob regenerates 5% of its hp every 20 seconds - if you kill it in 19 seconds, it could have potentially not regenerated at all, or if you kill the mob in 2 seconds, it could have potentially regenerated a full 5% of its hp. So again you have to factor in that as well.

And as pertaining to your tests on allophyl, since they were one of the 'adjusted' mobs, and have a quick regeneration, we have found that all the maturities regenerate the same percent of their health per second. So a uniform regeneration timer was set for the mob. For this particular mob it was 100 seconds.
 
I think the overkill is not an huge problem. I mean give 15 dmg more on a 300-400 points regeneration will change the regeneration value of some unit fraction only.
About the regeneration that dont start at time 0 at the first shoot, what we can do about?????? and about the ticks??????????.....but i guess in any case the proposed methods can in some way take in consideration all this too. I mean the methods take in consideration the mob hp , all the extra damage that is necessary to balance the regeneration, whatever this start at time 0 or after 5 sec or after 20 sec or it goes in ticks.
I would like also to know the methods in calculating the actual reg values in entropedia. ....... talking about pecision. I mean we are cross testing our values with the entropedia ones, when we don t even know what kind of mesuraments (looking to the health bar for example?) were used.
 
I think the overkill is not an huge problem. I mean give 15 dmg more on a 300-400 points regeneration will change the regeneration value of some unit fraction only.
About the regeneration that dont start at time 0 at the first shoot, what we can do about?????? and about the ticks??????????.....but i guess in any case the proposed methods can in some way take in consideration all this too. I mean the methods take in consideration the mob hp , all the extra damage that is necessary to balance the regeneration, whatever this start at time 0 or after 5 sec or after 20 sec or it goes in ticks.
I would like also to know the methods in calculating the actual reg values in entropedia. ....... talking about pecision. I mean we are cross testing our values with the entropedia ones, when we don t even know what kind of mesuraments (looking to the health bar for example?) were used.

Well when I do regeneration testing, I usually shoot it down to as close to 0% as possible, then start a timer. I stop the timer when it finally reaches full health. Voila, you have a regeneration time within 5% of the actual amount (you can usually round this a bit as well, as the new-school regeneration is fairly predictable, 100 seconds, 160 seconds, 240 seconds, etc) And for most mobs (the ones that don't regen super super fast lol), getting the regeneration time within 5 or 10 seconds is the best you can do without decompiling the program, which would most likely get you banned from the game and have a lawsuit on your doorstep.
 
Well when I do regeneration testing, I usually shoot it down to as close to 0% as possible, then start a timer. I stop the timer when it finally reaches full health. Voila, you have a regeneration time within 5% of the actual amount (you can usually round this a bit as well, as the new-school regeneration is fairly predictable, 100 seconds, 160 seconds, 240 seconds, etc) And for most mobs (the ones that don't regen super super fast lol), getting the regeneration time within 5 or 10 seconds is the best you can do without decompiling the program, which would most likely get you banned from the game and have a lawsuit on your doorstep.

hello dude
i think this test is subject to a lot of errors. Shoot down to close 0% is far away to be a precise number, idem for full health too. At least now i know that i can use your reg values like reference, but without go crazy in trying to get the same numbers :)
thx for that info
 
hello dude
i think this test is subject to a lot of errors. Shoot down to close 0% is far away to be a precise number, idem for full health too. At least now i know that i can use your reg values like reference, but without go crazy in trying to get the same numbers :)
thx for that info

Yea, they're definitely approximations, but it's the best test I could figure out at the time (was before we had chat logs), and I just decided to stick with it since it worked.
 
The HP of the mobs is most likely correct. Since it was found to be Stamina times 10. I think this was also confirmed by Marco in some thread.

I think that nowadays indeed the HP recovery starts with the first damage done. In the past there was a 20 second cycle in which mobs and avatars recovered their HP. I know some people put a metronome next to their computer as to know when to start shooting a mob.

The best way to measure would be a low damage gun so that the time frame needed to do the kill is big. This way any overkill damage will be small and the total amount of regenerated HP high.

Cheers
Siam
 
The HP of the mobs is most likely correct. Since it was found to be Stamina times 10. I think this was also confirmed by Marco in some thread.

I think that nowadays indeed the HP recovery starts with the first damage done. In the past there was a 20 second cycle in which mobs and avatars recovered their HP. I know some people put a metronome next to their computer as to know when to start shooting a mob.

The best way to measure would be a low damage gun so that the time frame needed to do the kill is big. This way any overkill damage will be small and the total amount of regenerated HP high.

Cheers
Siam

Everything correct, except I'm pretty sure the HP recovery is still on a timer
 
Everything correct, except I'm pretty sure the HP recovery is still on a timer

i m very happy you super interested in this regeneration matter. If i can ask maybe you can try to test some mob reg (maybe from a mob that you already have the reg data so you can calculate the deviation/error with two separated analysis) using your method and the ones provided in this tread.
 
i m very happy you super interested in this regeneration matter. If i can ask maybe you can try to test some mob reg (maybe from a mob that you already have the reg data so you can calculate the deviation/error with two separated analysis) using your method and the ones provided in this tread.

Well, as I said earlier, the deviation/error for the calculation method is the damage of the last shot, and the amount of time between regeneration 'ticks' (this can be easily found by timing how long a regeneration tick is for the mob)
 
Hijacker, you sound a bit mad, was it you who entered values into entropedia?

The problem with almost every test you've suggested is there are errors in the measurements.

I have suggested only one test, and some minor adjustments to improve the results
For one, the total damage done/etc is subject to overkill.

That's why i suggested a finisher weapon

For two, the mobs regenerate in ticks - and not uniformly.

This doesn't affect the total regeneration over time, just when it occurs - that you may be lucky and kill a mob right before the tic would have upped it's health is pretty much irrelevant for the calculation of average kill costs.

Of course you need to repeat the tests and take the average of the results, i think i said this somewhere, too.

... it definitely doesn't start when you first shoot it.

My point was that regeneration starts before you have inflicted the "base HP" (960 in the example).

I wonder though where you take this from.

And as pertaining to your tests on allophyl, since they were one of the 'adjusted' mobs, and have a quick regeneration, we have found that all the maturities regenerate the same percent of their health per second. So a uniform regeneration timer was set for the mob. For this particular mob it was 100 seconds.

Yeah, people always look for nice numbers, but this doesn't have to be the case here - computers (and coders) are more likely to use i.e. 128 seconds (because that's simply a bitwise AND over the last bits, instead of a costly "divide by 100" operation).

/Edit: Who is "we" btw?

Well when I do regeneration testing, I usually shoot it down to as close to 0% as possible, then start a timer. I stop the timer when it finally reaches full health. Voila, you have a regeneration time within 5% of the actual amount (you can usually round this a bit as well, as the new-school regeneration is fairly predictable, 100 seconds, 160 seconds, 240 seconds, etc) And for most mobs (the ones that don't regen super super fast lol), getting the regeneration time within 5 or 10 seconds is the best you can do ...

See, there we have the problem, the remaining health cannot be determined correctly, and then you keep rounding results to a multiple of 10 seconds.

This is all guesswork, and while the results are somewhat useable, the error margin is way bigger than with my method (and it suffers from the "off/on ticks" problem as well, no idea why you ran down my test method when yours didn't deal with this either...)

... without decompiling the program, which would most likely get you banned from the game and have a lawsuit on your doorstep.

MA would never know when someone decompiles the client code... ;)

But why should anyone do this?

Regeneration is calculated server side (that's why it stops when you lose connection) - the only reason to do this client side, too, would be a smoother experience (and re-sync'ed whenever the server gives you an update), but MAs coders are obviously not aware of this method.
 
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Nice initiative.. subscribing
 
hey wizzszz
what do you think if we do a little test on the different allophyl maturities???? in lidimian there is a nice spot (also if the estophil suck), maybe someone know a better one???

DC
 
hey wizzszz
what do you think if we do a little test on the different allophyl maturities???? in lidimian there is a nice spot (also if the estophil suck), maybe someone know a better one???

DC

Sounds like a plan :)

But we must do that later tonight though, too busy IRL atm :(
 
Sounds like a plan :)

But we must do that later tonight though, too busy IRL atm :(

i well know that you busy, you don t even replied to mail email :smoke:

anyway i guess i can run some in any case
 
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