Petition for Feature Freeze

Zacariaz said:

No one is talking about perfect an bugless and certainly no one is talking about an imaginary dream world. This is something that is quite normal to do, and healthy.

An now we are talking about Microsoft and Windows. Remember the vista fiasco? What do you think would have happened if they had done their work properly? Maybe they wouldn't still be going out of business perhaps?

What do you think would have happened to a business that haven't got billions in the bank? Maybe they would have gone out of business already?


If you insist on upon starting an argument, at least do us the curtest of thinking it through first.

The problem with EU is not that it's not perfect, but that it's getting worse everyday and has been doing so for years.

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What is the name of the poll ?

"Petition for Feature Freeze"

No need for me to say anything else...

ermik said:

they should yes, but you cant demand it since they never asked you to deposit in exchange for access to the Entropia Universe plattform.

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You seem focused EU as a platform, which it is. Unfortunately MA is focused on it as well.
This platform seems to be gaining more new investors then new players.

A platform doesn't mean squat without enough paying customers to support it.

~CHOPPER~ said:

You seem focused EU as a platform, which it is. Unfortunately MA is focused on it as well.
This platform seems to be gaining more new investors then new players.

A platform doesn't mean squat without enough paying customers to support it.

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Paying MindArk is a two-step process. It requires someone depositing, and someone (maybe the same person) spending the PED. MindArk does not have resources to safely spend just because someone deposited. "Paying customers" would realistically include everyone who deposits and/or decays/cycles PED into the system.

TheOneOmega said:

MindArk does not have resources to safely spend just because someone deposited.

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Your correct.
But I bet they sure do

ermik said:

OP claims to be paying for a service, wich you dont.

You do however choose to deposit money in exchange for a virtual currency wich you then may do as you wish while interacting with the Entropia Universe plattform.

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ermik said:

they should yes, but you cant demand it since they never asked you to deposit in exchange for access to the Entropia Universe plattform.

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Ermik, you usually have relatively intelligent input on a wide variety of topics on the forum... usually.

All players are customers, and the ones who pay (deposit) are literally paying for the sevice (to continue operating).

I want new stuff, and I want bugs fixed. Constant development is the goal of EU in many respects ("It's dynamic"). I don't believe a freeze would work unless it lasted forever.

I voted to continue as is (which does include bug fixes - today's update was all bug fixes) because the alternative is a "static" universe, and that bores me just thinking about it.



Miles

Miles said:

I want new stuff, and I want bugs fixed. Constant development is the goal of EU in many respects ("It's dynamic"). I don't believe a freeze would work unless it lasted forever.

I voted to continue as is (which does include bug fixes - today's update was all bug fixes) because the alternative is a "static" universe, and that bores me just thinking about it.



Miles

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The topic is "Feature Freeze", not content freeze...

Temporary Bug-Fix-Only updates, just til bugs are fixed, then back to development!

Tycoon said:

The topic is "Feature Freeze", not content freeze...

Temporary Bug-Fix-Only updates, just til bugs are fixed, then back to development!

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Quite right. I wouldn't want a static universe either.

One issue with this train of thought. Ok they stop the features and just fix the bugs. Now less bugs but now they start adding features again all the bugs are back being adding features is what causes the bugs. You can't just fix bugs then add features expecting the bugs to stay fixed if adding the features are what causes the bugs. They should progress as is add features, find the bugs, then take care of them as they go as they have always done, be it slow to get bugs fixed it is the best approach.

just my opinions here

Edit: These be the pains of having a test environment that is actually the production server

K-Max said:

One issue with this train of thought. Ok they stop the features and just fix the bugs. Now less bugs but now they start adding features again all the bugs are back being adding features is what causes the bugs. You can't just fix bugs then add features expecting the bugs to stay fixed if adding the features are what causes the bugs. They should progress as is add features, find the bugs, then take care of them as they go as they have always done, be it slow to get bugs fixed it is the best approach.

just my opinions here

Edit: These be the pains of having a test environment that is actually the production server

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I don't really know how to comment upon this.

In my opinion it is quite normal check for spelling error before you publish a book. Of course it can never be perfect, but to keep publish those book and wait with the spell check until people start complaining is certainly not the way to go. All it achieves is a slower, more incomplete and not least more expensive process.

Tycoon said:

The topic is "Feature Freeze", not content freeze...

Temporary Bug-Fix-Only updates, just til bugs are fixed, then back to development!

Click to expand...

I guess I don't see the distinction unless I squint. I didn't make one myself. The best new content is built on new features. And you say temporary, but that assumes tolerance of some level of feature-related bugs, or belief in the Exterminator Fairy. To fix every bug, and the bugs created by fixing every bug, and the bugs created by fixing those - it would literally take forever.

I think the freeze concept overly simplifies the nature of the problem and offers up a nice, tidy, satisfying solution -that won't work.



Miles

Zacariaz said:

I don't really know how to comment upon this.

In my opinion it is quite normal check for spelling error before you publish a book. Of course it can never be perfect, but to keep publish those book and wait with the spell check until people start complaining is certainly not the way to go. All it achieves is a slower, more incomplete and not least more expensive process.

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Writing software is nothing like writing a book. So to clarify, when they add new features it causes things that were once fixed to not be fixed. Hence bugs show up, they add more features more bugs ect. They fix them slowly. If they stopped pushing out features that caused bugs and made things bug free it would become extremely slow for content to be added. There is never a condition where bugs are all fixed in software there is only a state where you live with the bugs that exist. But now they fixed enough bugs and everyone is happier lets say then they add a new feature, that new feature caused the old bugs to show up, people are now even more pissed off. Yes new features have tendency to make the same bugs pop back up. Now take the case where your already pissed off the add new features the bugs never got fixed so the new feature never re initiated a recall on old bugs so your still the same amount pissed off. But now when the bug gets tended to it is fixed once and for all instead of over and over again. MA is still reactivating stuff before CryEngine2 was added let that happen to entirety first before bugs are fixed else the team is just re fixing the same thing over and over which trust me is very frustrating to do in software, it is even more frustrating then using the software with the bug in it.

K-Max said:

Writing software is nothing like writing a book. So to clarify, when they add new features it causes things that were once fixed to not be fixed. Hence bugs show up, they add more features more bugs ect. They fix them slowly. If they stopped pushing out features that caused bugs and made things bug free it would become extremely slow for content to be added. There is never a condition where bugs are all fixed in software there is only a state where you live with the bugs that exist. But now they fixed enough bugs and everyone is happier lets say then they add a new feature, that new feature caused the old bugs to show up, people are now even more pissed off. Yes new features have tendency to make the same bugs pop back up. Now take the case where your already pissed off the add new features the bugs never got fixed so the new feature never re initiated a recall on old bugs so your still the same amount pissed off. But now when the bug gets tended to it is fixed once and for all instead of over and over again. MA is still reactivating stuff before CryEngine2 was added let that happen to entirety first before bugs are fixed else the team is just re fixing the same thing over and over which trust me is very frustrating to do in software, it is even more frustrating then using the software with the bug in it.

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I can not agree that writing software is nothing like writing a book. Though of course it's far from the same thing, there are many similarities. Of course you will usually only be aware of this if you've done both. (No I've never been published, but I have written a lot)

But of course that isn't really important, it was just a bad attempt of explaining my intentions.

As for the rest, I'm afraid I can't agree either. Not because what you're saying don't make sense, to a degree at least, but because MA has proven again and again that they are incapable to work this way.

There are many ways to develop software and none are good or bad, but the goal should always be the best user experience possible and a bugged taming system will not help in the slightest, just to take an example. It's a non critical system which may be fun and all, but I believe most can live without.

If MA had a plan and kept to it, I'd gladly wait for all the old systems to go online before starting to polish the chrome, but I've seen no evidence that this is the case, quite the opposite. Things keep getting worse, at least from my perspective.

I think it's a good idea and I think taking some time to really focus on not just squashing bugs but also general polish and improvments on the whole experience for the end-user(us) would be mutually beneficial, and as we all know happy customers is good for business.

Visual
I've seen the reconstrected athene/zephyrus area aswell as the long overdue redesign of several mobs and I'm genuinely impressed however, I think that other key factors should be improved than just the static eyecandy in form of textures, terrainmeshes and vegetation. Animations for starters. Mobs, vehicles and avatars especially mob getting hurt animations that feels jerky could use some TLC.
And there are many models of nearly all category of items that could use a proper facelift.

Gameplay/Interaction
General controls in the game could use quite a bit of polish aswell, is the game fun to play, Does it feel right to move about with your avatar? Does it feel satisfying to drive a valkyrie in the world or is it like riding a breadloaf in mustard? I'm not talking about added realism but small touches to make the game feel better and be more enjoyable.
And perhaps a redesign/simplification of the rather complicated task of remapping the controls on the keyboard, the action book is not the most user friendly system especially for new players.

Another thing that I really miss from old PE is building oil towers by stacking barrels of oil (anyone remember the oil castle?) I know it's still possible to some extent to stack objects things but it requires much more work nowdays. And if it was disabled due to conserve server performance, well let's put it this way in an RCE nothing built of objects a tt value won't last very long, besides it felt great to build something and leave a few peds value of materials to some lucky Explorer (perhaps such find made it possible for him/her to get the first profitable hunt/miningrun/craftsession that helped them get hooked) not to mention finding such treasure as a noob

Some fun actions could be added aswell say for example one crippling your avatar turning it into a ragdoll for a few seconds letting us play a bit with the ingame physics that CE2 provides or more basic ones such as crouching, and the old sit/lie down on the ground.

Audio
In the auditory department there's much room for improvements, some weapons sounds are just horrible, the "starkhov type" blp rifles and the mini-sweeper sounds springs to mind(the one that was used before was loads better when hunting for extended periods of time imo ) Putting some time and effort into the sound effects eg. making everything from guns, tools and vehicles to menu beeps sound better on the ear.

"Chat voices" could perhaps be re-instated aswell, I think that they were great on building atmosphere and helped giving the game character. I still remember in 2006 when I first logged in walked out of the spaceship and walked into Port Atlantis hearing those nonsensical voices. As far as as first impressions go it made a huge impact on me.
I guess some might find them annoying though.
I think the ingame soundtrack is also outdated and as MindArk is stationed in Gothenburg they could perhaps enlist some of the brilliant musicians and groups that reside or atleast originates from the same town and happens to be creating music that I think would fit the game perfectly, and they are Solar Fields and Carbon Based Lifeforms(I'll leave youtube links at the very bottom of the screen if anyones interested in listening to them)
I am aware that many people play with the ingame sound muted and with their own music instead, but I think it's important for the ingame atmosphere.

One might argue that these minor issues aren't imporant but as an avid gamer for many years the games that I clear the settling dust from and play from time to time that are the ones I list as my all time favorites have one thing in common great balance in all aspects: gameplay, Audio visual, atmosphere and overall quality.

TL;DR MA/Dev should halt content injection in order to proiritize bugfixing and overall quality polish; Many small details makes the big picture.


Links:
Solar Fields:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNiD9M59FQE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuydaKbF-vw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRWYczdMDIc

Carbon based lifeforms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRW_zVeRp9I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1LjzzyKCLc

Zacariaz said:

I can not agree that writing software is nothing like writing a book. Though of course it's far from the same thing, there are many similarities. Of course you will usually only be aware of this if you've done both. (No I've never been published, but I have written a lot)

But of course that isn't really important, it was just a bad attempt of explaining my intentions.

As for the rest, I'm afraid I can't agree either. Not because what you're saying don't make sense, to a degree at least, but because MA has proven again and again that they are incapable to work this way.

There are many ways to develop software and none are good or bad, but the goal should always be the best user experience possible and a bugged taming system will not help in the slightest, just to take an example. It's a non critical system which may be fun and all, but I believe most can live without.

If MA had a plan and kept to it, I'd gladly wait for all the old systems to go online before starting to polish the chrome, but I've seen no evidence that this is the case, quite the opposite. Things keep getting worse, at least from my perspective.

Click to expand...

Well we clearly disagree, I have written software that had a strict bi-weekly release and had to deal with peoples bug issues vs. new content being added issue every day for over 10 years. I first tried to release software that had less content added and more bug fixes but as described people got more pissed when old bugs cropped up. More so then having a bug linger and more content added and the bug slowly got fixed as needed based on content effects. I knew bug would crop up as a developer so I pushed bug fixes out because of this. People were much happier with bugs not reappearing but with them lingering on trust me on this, first hand experience over many years. My user base was thousands of users world wide. I see nothing wrong with how MA's software development is going as this is only way I see to give new content to satisfy the masses and slowly fix bugs as they have time or needed because they know some content will re create known bug later making people more angry.

On side note I'd rather play with Cry Engine 2 with the annoying bugs then playing on old graphics for years until they finally got all the bugs fixed on test system. Which is the method of development you suggest. I for one like the Cry Engine 2 EU experience and am willing to suffer playing with bug vs not having it at all.

My issues with MA are more towards game design and how things are done more then over bugs and late release schedules.

But as we will always disagree with each other I said my peace and will comment no farther.

too bad the poll is anonymous, this being a petition and all!

Chrome said:

Ermik, you usually have relatively intelligent input on a wide variety of topics on the forum... usually.

All players are customers, and the ones who pay (deposit) are literally paying for the sevice (to continue operating).

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I know, i also understand the point you (and the OP) is trying to make, however as mindark never asked you to deposit you cant force them to actions using your depositing habits as initiative.

But ofcourse you can say "MA we would LIKE you to fix these things, or we may stop depositing as a result of not feeling the plattform provides us with what we want." i know its a little like splitting hairs but since many people already have a problem understanding that they dont actually own their avatars ( or their inventory ) someone have to play devils advocate abit.

I also would like the bugs to get fixed, but choosing an angle of attack from wich you technically have no rights seem like a bad idea.

ermik said:

I know, i also understand the point you (and the OP) is trying to make, however as mindark never asked you to deposit you cant force them to actions using your depositing habits as initiative.

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Sure we can!

Imagine yourself going into a department store, and a greeter at the front door says "Hi! Go fuck yourself!".

The prices are too high, and the products available are old and damaged. Regardless, you shop there daily, spending your money, and always get the same treatment.

Eventually, you stop shopping there.

If enough people stop shopping there, the department store either will have to change their ways to stay open as a business, or close their doors forever... because they have no customers.

ermik said:

...however as mindark never asked you to deposit you cant force them to actions using your depositing habits as initiative.

But ofcourse you can say "MA we would LIKE you to fix these things, or we may stop depositing as a result of not feeling the plattform provides us with what we want."

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who said anything about banding together and forcing MA to do as we like with some kind of ultimatum?

that's not the point of a petition, and that's not how they work!

Tycoon said:

who said anything about banding together and forcing MA to do as we like with some kind of ultimatum?

that's not the point of a petition, and that's not how they work!

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You should have realized by now that this is not actually a petition. If that was the case, it would be a waste of time as MA has no obligations.

Banding together to force MA could work however, though it will of course never happen.

So what is this you ask?

Whatever you want it to be.

For me it's a simple question to the community and a small hope that someone at MA HQ may actually read this.

What it is to you I can not answer, though I hope that it's more than simply an opportunity to make pointless points.

Tycoon said:

who said anything about banding together and forcing MA to do as we like with some kind of ultimatum?

that's not the point of a petition, and that's not how they work!

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im not against the petition, i was just commenting on how people cliaim they buy a service.

when you buy a service, you pay a predetermined price in exchange for something.

when you deposit , you decide how much you like to deposit, and what to dpend it on

Im all for fixin the bugs first.


I have given up on MA doing the right thing.

What they do is the profitable thing...


There are many personal reasons in which I needed to cut back EU soon.

Since I decided to play less I have been killed / looted due to another player using a exploit. Thus bringing my short casual attempt in EU to a halt!

I wish you all the best. I'd honestly love to be able to play in a couple years and see how things have progressed. But for now. Im taking my money and time elsewhere. Where I feel im using there service, not a open wallet for the company to take from.

GL peeps Hope this petition works for your sakes!