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Maybe not a theory, but some thoughts...

K-Max said:
ok, my test will be based on mob kill number instead ped in and out. I see a lot of results but the tests seem to kill only 1/2 the mobs as the other half of the test so you only get 1/2 the mob loot sample size. shouldn't the sample size have to be the same to prove if mobs drop amount changes based on decay? You could have gotten on a lucky streak on that second 1/2 of the one sample side using that one amp which that other amp tested never had a chance to test against, I am sure there is a lot of randomness as well involved.

500 mobs killed no matter what it costs will show if eco or un-eco effect the amount of loot dropped by mobs. I am working on finishing my 12k mission anyways so why not run a test.

PS also are we just testing amp loot return effectivness or the whole eco/un-eco theory here? I can use a E-Amp 12 and a Hotfoot 10 both do 10 damage but E-AMP has much higher decay value.
Click to expand...

I guess I have to qoute my second post:
"No test is reliable unless you manage to go thru' a whole cycle.
And a full cycle could mean months... ;)"

A eamp12 vs. Hotfoot10 could be interesting. :) But ANY kind of test is ofc interesting.


Infinity01 said:

Molisk here is the spread sheet!
Click to expand...

Thnx. :) And using a 101 vs. eamp15 do same amount of interactions to the object? ;)
 
Joat said:
I guess I have to qoute my second post:
"No test is reliable unless you manage to go thru' a whole cycle.
And a full cycle could mean months... ;)"

A eamp12 vs. Hotfoot10 could be interesting. :) But ANY kind of test is ofc interesting.




Thnx. :) And using a 101 vs. eamp15 do same amount of interactions to the object? ;)
Click to expand...

Ok well being we are just on amps I'll use exact same setup for gear except switch out amps and use E-Amp12 and Hotfoot 10 see what the results are. Make sample size 500 mobs each run and all on Oro Stalker. I'll swap out guns for other maturaties and record just stalker loot in my findings.
 
Since I've switched to being as eco as possible, what I've found is that average loots are the same for every given mob (depending on how much hit points it has), you just get more of them. Therefore, for say 100 ped ammo, you kill 10 instead of 9. If average loot is constant, it appears that suddenly you made more per X ammo than before. Also, if you kill 1000 instead of 900, surprise surprise, you suddenly get more globals and hofs too.
 
K-Max said:
Ok well being we are just on amps I'll use exact same setup for gear except switch out amps and use E-Amp12 and Hotfoot 10 see what the results are. Make sample size 500 mobs each run and all on Oro Stalker. I'll swap out guns for other maturaties and record just stalker loot in my findings.
Click to expand...

Hm, when you change gun, your interaction with objects will also change.
Ah well, good luck anyway. :)
 
Magix said:
Since I've switched to being as eco as possible, what I've found is that average loots are the same for every given mob (depending on how much hit points it has), you just get more of them. Therefore, for say 100 ped ammo, you kill 10 instead of 9. If average loot is constant, it appears that suddenly you made more per X ammo than before. Also, if you kill 1000 instead of 900, surprise surprise, you suddenly get more globals and hofs too.
Click to expand...

When I have damage enhancers on mkV+eamp13 I get better outcome
on Sumima then when I have no enhancers on. :)
I can kill more per run with this setup, but cost is also higher.
Is this due to mkV is wrong weapon and amp and enhancers tweak it
up to fit better, or is it just because cost is higher? ;)
If I go for eco I'll kill less mobs since I have to shoot more shots
per mob...

If it had been another mob, it might have been as you experience.
I did 10k molisk and 10k armax at the same time last summer, my loss
were 700ped, and I did use a very eco setup. That setup is very
wrong on some other mobs thou' (for me that is :)).
 
Thedarksnw said:
Question is: is it possible that previous results affect following ones? If answer is yes then with some research you will be able to wait for moment X to swap your gear for something that allows higher bets and hitting a winstreak. If not then it still might be possible to predict results using other tells.
Click to expand...

Depends what you mean, but thats the core of lootsystem I guess, since
you build up for payout in loot, now when we don't get payout per killed
mob.
If build up is wrong, I doubt you get a better payout just because you
use a more balanced one before looting, more probably the oposite.
My guess is that you need a perfectly balanced setup all the time,
that fits the target you hunt. Then you get better return, or should
maybe say, you lose less... ;)
 
K-Max said:
So using these two setups your saying I will get higher loot drops using the un-eco setup form mobs because I am cycling more ped into the system to kill those same mobs?
Click to expand...
Absolutely yes. I have remarkably better loot using jmk3 (with HA 5/10) than using something like LR41, and the difference is noticeable instantly - for example I'm hunting argos and they give 3-4 iron stones each in average, then I switch to jmk3 and now it's 9+ stones most of the time. It's just so uneco that I lose more in the end no matter that the loot was better :)
 
Svarog said:
Absolutely yes. I have remarkably better loot using jmk3 (with HA 5/10) than using something like LR41, and the difference is noticeable instantly - for example I'm hunting argos and they give 3-4 iron stones each in average, then I switch to jmk3 and now it's 9+ stones most of the time. It's just so uneco that I lose more in the end no matter that the loot was better :)
Click to expand...

That's not fun when total loot turn out to be that bad, when some part is good. ;)

I guess I can't complain really, done approx 750 Sumima for free today without
anything special, some LR53(L) and Electric Attack-chips, but that's it.
 
Joat said:
When I have damage enhancers on mkV+eamp13 I get better outcome
on Sumima then when I have no enhancers on. :)
I can kill more per run with this setup, but cost is also higher.
Is this due to mkV is wrong weapon and amp and enhancers tweak it
up to fit better, or is it just because cost is higher? ;)
If I go for eco I'll kill less mobs since I have to shoot more shots
per mob...

If it had been another mob, it might have been as you experience.
I did 10k molisk and 10k armax at the same time last summer, my loss
were 700ped, and I did use a very eco setup. That setup is very
wrong on some other mobs thou' (for me that is :)).
Click to expand...

I'll probably do a longer write-up when I have time, but long story short: eco does not mean simply what weapon you are using. Time is also a significant factor, and in certain situations, by far the most important factor. A bigger gun means less time fapping/dying, more time shooting/looting.

Most people think: eco = cost per kill * number of kills, the lower the number the better.
Actually, it should be: eco = (cost per kill * number of kills) / time, the larger the number the better.

I've been doing small aurli in several stages the past few months:
Stage 1: grem + 5b + apis + beast + sk-20
Stage 2: grem + 5b + apis + beast + bravo + ek-2600
Stage 3: jag + 5b + apis + dante + bravo + ek-2600

It's astonishing how large a factor time is. In stage 1, for example, I could only kill maybe 20 aurli per 100 ped ammo, largely because I tended to die about 4 times in that period. In stage 2, it went up to 25, because now I was dying 2 times in that time period. Now, it could be 30+ because I die maybe once every 2 hours. My overall costs in terms of decay are much higher, but the cost per kill keeps going down.

Before Aurli (roughly stage 1 equipment) I could barely do maybe 50 small (lower than hunter) feffs/hour. With stage 3 equipment, I'm doing 100 large ones (hunter and up) per hour. What's really amazing is that for aurli, my armor costs increased the more Aurli I killed. However, for feffs, my armor cost actually decreased because time became so small per kill that it affected the amount of decay I took, and my fap cost went to zero.
 
Magix said:
I'll probably do a longer write-up when I have time, but long story short: eco does not mean simply what weapon you are using. Time is also a significant factor, and in certain situations, by far the most important factor. A bigger gun means less time fapping/dying, more time shooting/looting.

Most people think: eco = cost per kill * number of kills, the lower the number the better.
Actually, it should be: eco = (cost per kill * number of kills) / time, the larger the number the better.

I've been doing small aurli in several stages the past few months:
Stage 1: grem + 5b + apis + beast + sk-20
Stage 2: grem + 5b + apis + beast + bravo + ek-2600
Stage 3: jag + 5b + apis + dante + bravo + ek-2600

It's astonishing how large a factor time is. In stage 1, for example, I could only kill maybe 20 aurli per 100 ped ammo, largely because I tended to die about 4 times in that period. In stage 2, it went up to 25, because now I was dying 2 times in that time period. Now, it could be 30+ because I die maybe once every 2 hours. My overall costs in terms of decay are much higher, but the cost per kill keeps going down.

Before Aurli (roughly stage 1 equipment) I could barely do maybe 50 small (lower than hunter) feffs/hour. With stage 3 equipment, I'm doing 100 large ones (hunter and up) per hour. What's really amazing is that for aurli, my armor costs increased the more Aurli I killed. However, for feffs, my armor cost actually decreased because time became so small per kill that it affected the amount of decay I took, and my fap cost went to zero.
Click to expand...

As I mentioned earlier, it's a question to find a balance in interaction with
objects, and I guess you getting closer and closer to very efficient interactions. :)
Btw, I should mention that when I say interactions, I do mean any kind of those,
shooting, healing, defense and so on...
 
Joat said:
Hm, when you change gun, your interaction with objects will also change.
Ah well, good luck anyway. :)
Click to expand...

Well OK I'll have my disciples be sweepers and kill the other maturaties while I only target that one type without changing guns.
 
K-Max said:
Well OK I'll have my disciples be sweepers and kill the other maturaties while I only target that one type without changing guns.
Click to expand...

Nice. :)

I had a question (not in this thread) why I think it work as I mention here..
It's due to several reaasons, but one reason is due what I have experienced,
and one is from a legal p.o.v.
When they investigated if EU were gambling or not, they said something
similar to " you can't just grab a gun and go out and kill a mob, without
some knowledge". I do think you need to have some knowledge from a gamemechanism
p.o.v, and not just from stats of equipment.

I noticed this thread turned into uneco vs. eco, it isn't about that, it's about
"right" eco in our interactions.
What interest me here, what is it that controlls this?
And no, I doubt if we get to know this, loot will be better. It might get less
bad thou'... :D ;)
If everyone gets 100% efficient, everyone will probably have slimmer chance
to get extra in ordinary loot.
Btw, interactions are just one piece of the whole system. There are way more parts
that controll outcome, but I doubt I get into that now, too bored of EU to be honest. ;)
 
Art Jennifer said:
Maybe, they should make loot skill based.

Give better returns to those with higher skills, who have invested time into this game?

Instead of ripping them off :)

Edit: Gives people like myself with lower skils, hope for the future instead of nothing really. Other than wishing for a big hof so I can move up and hunt bigger for a few hours...:p
Click to expand...

maybe our skilled friends, a part using a large wallet, have gained those skills also using a tons of bugs and a different skill gain rate in the old PE time and now you want also you they get more loot????

i m fine with it. In any case i don t deposit anymore (but still in game), it s just your money not mine.
good luck
 
Dr.D.C. said:
maybe our skilled friends, a part using a large wallet, have gained those skills also using a tons of bugs and a different skill gain rate in the old PE time and now you want also you they get more loot????

i m fine with it. In any case i don t deposit anymore (but still in game), it s just your money not mine.
good luck
Click to expand...

If we got better return due to skills only, I guess EU will get way closer to gambling
than what it is today. :)
Maybe MA could explain a bit more what to look for, but with too much info, both fun
and hard work for others might get spoiled then. The majority should at least get
a better understanding how EU works.
I truely doubt they would do that thou', since that info needs to be so prefectly
balanced between being informative, but at the same time not give too much help.

Btw, I never liked the myth, "everything were so easy in PE", it wasn't.
I both gained and lost due to old bugs. I had extra gain in LWT so I gained more than
I should a afternoon (MA let me keep them, maybe because I actively reported bugs and
errors? ;)) but I also lost a lot of skills due to system didn't kept info.
I think I'm the only one that has triggered Marksmanship twice, and this were
way before we could sell/buy skills. I did it due to one of those bugs where it
didn't kept info. ;)
Some gain were way better at that time, some were way worse. What I gained in LWT
in some months, I gained same amount in GWT in a day in new system.
Imo, the problem were those who used AC way too much, but MA didn't do sh*t to
prevent it, sadly.
 
I think fuck eco and everything else, I just deposit when I need to and if I want to at the moment. what I get back from any activity is not with in my control for the most part so why bother. I do try not to do things I feel are stupid like over protecting with armor and such. Just go out and do stuff if I see I am plugging to much money it I move on to other things, games, bla bla bla.

I can't bring my self to track returns because there is no point in tracking the returns over a 500 ped mining run or hunting or 2k crafting, the running total is all that matters anything short of that is a invalid method of determining your returns. I will say you will run in to some cases where tracking a return over a single activity may be wise to better understand how that activity turned out but you cant put much weight in it with out knowing 100% of how the system works and how loot over all activity's works.

in the end just spend money with in your budget and personal limits, have fun and progress forward, unless you enjoy spreadsheets and formulas...

I like shooting stuff and crafting shinny stuff.
 
Aeris_is_back said:
I think fuck eco and everything else, I just deposit when I need to and if I want to at the moment. what I get back from any activity is not with in my control for the most part so why bother. I do try not to do things I feel are stupid like over protecting with armor and such. Just go out and do stuff if I see I am plugging to much money it I move on to other things, games, bla bla bla.

I can't bring my self to track returns because there is no point in tracking the returns over a 500 ped mining run or hunting or 2k crafting, the running total is all that matters anything short of that is a invalid method of determining your returns. I will say you will run in to some cases where tracking a return over a single activity may be wise to better understand how that activity turned out but you cant put much weight in it with out knowing 100% of how the system works and how loot over all activity's works.

in the end just spend money with in your budget and personal limits, have fun and progress forward, unless you enjoy spreadsheets and formulas...

I like shooting stuff and crafting shinny stuff.
Click to expand...

Yup I don't monitor my play to much, but this thread interested me because I have run tests like this in the past to determine if eco effects mob loot returns over many kills etc.

And as Joat and I both stated we like cranking numbers, and seems others enjoy doing this also, always nice seeing base line charts of people results.

We all know we will never figure out exactly how the system works because I am sure MA is constantly changing it. But it would be interesting to see what effects what somewhat right now and to do that you need to run some tests and while out doing missions may as well test some stuff out.

Cheers.
 
K-Max said:
Yup I don't monitor my play to much, but this thread interested me because I have run tests like this in the past to determine if eco effects mob loot returns over many kills etc.

And as Joat and I both stated we like cranking numbers, and seems others enjoy doing this also, always nice seeing base line charts of people results.

We all know we will never figure out exactly how the system works because I am sure MA is constantly changing it. But it would be interesting to see what effects what somewhat right now and to do that you need to run some tests and while out doing missions may as well test some stuff out.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

My reason for tests has almost always been due to skillgain, the eco-part has
only been a "sideeffect" of the tests.
Since I've done those for skillgain, I never really cared of outcome per run,
I kept going no matter if it were good or bad, really bad sometimes. :D ;)
Even thou' I do like to the numbers, I'm mostly interested in the logic in
MAs gamemechanism.

Having fun should always be #1 reason to play imo, but I think over time,
playerbase has got way too high percent with players that are only here
for the money. That percentage must go down imo, but not by those who are
here "only" for the money quit, but by attract people similar to me, who
use EU as a entertainment in the gaming p.o.v. ;)
I know some might think "-Omg! How can you spend RL-money on a poor mmo?!?"
well, since I only depo 2/3 of what I had spent on a night out, I wonder
in what way is it better to go out, get drunk as hell, lose a lot of money,
and have some memoryloss? Ok, I guess at some huntingruns in EU, I wish I
did have some memoryloss there too... :D ;)
 
i like skillgains too...so from your experience which skillgains indicate good interaction with mobs..rifle, weapons handling or etc...you can pm me if u dont wanna tell the world :silly2:
 
sakuraqueen said:
i like skillgains too...so from your experience which skillgains indicate good interaction with mobs..rifle, weapons handling or etc...you can pm me if u dont wanna tell the world :silly2:
Click to expand...

All and none. :) Skillgain is more related to cost imo, that old test-setups
I used against Atrox, mkV+eamp13 vs. mkV-a203, I had worse roi with eamp13
on (and when I mention roi I exclude mu), but my skillprogress were approx
2.5 times better than with a203 on. Rare skills were gained more often too.
To complicate it even more, skillgains are also "slave" to prof stands imo,
when I reaching a new point, both in prof stand and individual skills, my gain
always slow down.

One thing to remember, when mentioning values like my better skillprogress
with a value of 2.5, it's related to my avatar only, at that time.
It shouldn't be seen as a guide with fixed value for everyone since everyone
are at different points in skillprogress and cycles.
 
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