Petition to remove Explosive BPs (or change them) - Part 2

now explain me - is there only 238 active adequate players ingame ? others are gamblers or just passing by without any care ?

and if so - gamblers should be pretty low % of total active players, so - WTF ? why so small number ? is EU dead ?

P.S. may be another thread should be created with voting for leaving explosive gambling as is :)


Simply wrong!

If you follow PCF regulary you will see a lot of names which are posting on a more or less frequent basis which are not on the list.
I also know a lot of avas which are not on the list as well from ingame.

And most of them are neither gamblers nor careless about the game.
 
Well i'm not on the list and don't want to be on this petition, but I am going to comment as i'm sure there are others that think the same way or have their own opinions.

I find it interesting that everyone is blaming the EP blueprints as the problem.
It's not, if anything it just gives an avenue for gamblers to feel like they are getting more play time for their money.

From what the initial post read, it is saying that crafters are the reason why mining has dried up in MU....because they have switched to EP instead. Think about this though. If i decide not to craft EP (Which I don't anyway...i just craft stuff for my personal use), and decide to go and craft some weapons or armors...who is going to buy them? In fact who will but them at decent enough markup to cover a miners MU (not current MU but a better MU to make the miners happy) as well as cover the loss of crafting...remember you don't successfully craft items all the time...in fact only around 30% of the clicks used are a success and 70% of the time they are only at the value of the item used up. Sure you may occasionally get a full value L item, but majority of the time you need to use residue to bump it up. So each click is at full cost and around 1/3 is a success at low value. Now if we want to try for a higher conditioned item...that means we are going down to around 18% success rate....in which we still may not get full TT items.

So crafters have to cover the cost of the materials (including miners MU) plus the loss and somehow sell these to hunters/miners for enough MU to make a profit. Now look at the L guns that drop compared to crafted.
Most of them are far superior to crafted weapons or come in such high drop rate that they flood the market.
Crafter's have to compete with these as well...since those things usually have an MU somewhere between 102-110%...that means weapons crafted have to be at a similar or better rate to sell. Then we also have to hope that people buy the weapons we craft over anything that can be gained while hunting.

Now also look at the amp's crafter to miners....Would miners be okay paying higher prices for these? no...they want their MU plus to buy these amps cheap and expect crafters to be the ones footing the bill for everything.

Next lets look at the EP crafters.....have you tried crafting this yourself to see how it goes?
Essentially these people spend thousands of clicks daily losing on EP to get a few small hof's/globals that unlikely cover their costs of clicking it anyway. All you see is XXXX got a 8000 PED on ep....did you know that they spent the last 1000 clicks at 20ped per click to get this? or maybe even more than that...try 3000 clicks or 6000 clicks...hey they may not even get one at all for a day or two or a week and then get three in a row.
You would feel better if it just said XXX lost 8000PED over 6000 clicks even though they globaled twice.

All they are doing is cycling peds and giving away their % to MA just like hunters and miners do. Most just TT their EP's as well so they are not getting any MU either.

Last point...miners can use probes from the TT machine, Hunters can use ammo from the TT machine.
Crafters use to not be able to use anything from the TT machine.
Miners could use Universal Ammo, Hunters can use universal ammo...crafters can not.
Why should crafter's be the ones left out?

You want to get crafters to stop doing EP? remove the L weapon/armor drops. Make it so you cannot use daily tokens for weapons. Then the demand will come back for weapons...crafters will start crafting them. Miners and hunters MU's will come back. Will there still be EP crafters? yes...some people just dont want to bother trying to sell stuff...but you will get your MU back....but be warned...you will be paying for what you need.

So remind me again why crafters doing EP blueprints are the problem?
 
So remind me again why crafters doing EP blueprints are the problem?

Because suddenly millions of cycled PEDs are coming directly from the TT machine, slashing demand for hunting and mining loot and decimating average markup on both.

Crafting went a decade without TT mats, it managed just fine, and it helped create demand for hunting mining/loot.

No demand = glut of supply = no markup.
 
Because suddenly millions of cycled PEDs are coming directly from the TT machine, slashing demand for hunting and mining loot and decimating average markup on both.

Crafting went a decade without TT mats, it managed just fine, and it helped create demand for hunting mining/loot.

No demand = glut of supply = no markup.

If there is no demand for crafted L and UNL tools, armors and weapons crafters don't have other to do than just skilling on some cheap blue print and waiting on better time when we get bigger player base, better bule prints etc.

In mean time I like cheap mining amps.
 
Well i'm not on the list and don't want to be on this petition, ........

I just know, that since we have EP crafting, that most of the ores are TT now. also a lot of the rare ores are tt now. No miracle, that no one buy uber finders, if you can tt the finds.
before EP, most crafting gamblers was crafting mining amps. So MU of narc was relative high, about narc was used for making basic sheets. Since EP crafting, narc is very low in MU.

Thats just an example, how ep affect everything in this game. Since MU is bad, a lot ppl also play less, about no fun to tt all stuff.
 
From what the initial post read, it is saying that crafters are the reason why mining has dried up in MU....because they have switched to EP instead. Think about this though. If i decide not to craft EP (Which I don't anyway...i just craft stuff for my personal use), and decide to go and craft some weapons or armors...who is going to buy them?

There are many reasons crafted items have no markup/demand, EP is not the only problem. Residue is dirt cheap right now so I don't understand why anyone would whine about that.


Now also look at the amp's crafter to miners....Would miners be okay paying higher prices for these? no...they want their MU plus to buy these amps cheap and expect crafters to be the ones footing the bill for everything.

Why would we care if amps were more expensive? This means markups on mining loot will go up accordingly, so it doesn't really affect us. If anything the insane spike in demand/prices will still make mining amps worth the MU (atm most amps are really not worth it at all). Personally I would mine unamped and craft my own amps with my own loot.


Next lets look at the EP crafters.....have you tried crafting this yourself to see how it goes?
Essentially these people spend thousands of clicks daily losing on EP to get a few small hof's/globals that unlikely cover their costs of clicking it anyway. All you see is XXXX got a 8000 PED on ep....did you know that they spent the last 1000 clicks at 20ped per click to get this? or maybe even more than that...try 3000 clicks or 6000 clicks...hey they may not even get one at all for a day or two or a week and then get three in a row.
You would feel better if it just said XXX lost 8000PED over 6000 clicks even though they globaled twice.

Last point...miners can use probes from the TT machine, Hunters can use ammo from the TT machine.
Crafters use to not be able to use anything from the TT machine.
Miners could use Universal Ammo, Hunters can use universal ammo...crafters can not.
Why should crafter's be the ones left out?

This has been brought up a few dozen times in this thread already. Level 13 amped miners have to pay markup to cycle at that speed so they are losing far more. Do you think a 4k tower on melchi water is better than 4k PED in metal residue? Because it's not. Anyway the point was never to remove EP. It was to remove EP IV.

Too short........
 
Because suddenly millions of cycled PEDs are coming directly from the TT machine, slashing demand for hunting and mining loot and decimating average markup on both.

Crafting went a decade without TT mats, it managed just fine, and it helped create demand for hunting mining/loot.

No demand = glut of supply = no markup.

There were already millions of PED cycled from the TT machine...its called ammo and probes. Crafters now using TT isn't what has started this downfall.

Look at the auction house, there are tons of weapons that are dropped by mobs, the ones that are crafted...nobody wants. Where is the incentive?...you take away EP and you think the demand for weapons is going to come back? no it wont...its not the crafters that create the demand for weapons, its the hunters. If the crafters start crafting weapons again, your going to get a ton flooding the market at lower and lower prices and you think crafters will pay a decent MU if they cant get a decent return themselves? I think not.

You take away EP and your not solving the problem. You will just find something else to blame for it instead as MU isn't magically going to come back. If anything, MA will start losing money as many of those crafters will just leave the game. meaning less cycled peds.....then MA will need to find that income elsewhere...I wonder what they would change to do that?
 
Can you use Change.org to make a petition like this? :laugh:
 
There were already millions of PED cycled from the TT machine...its called ammo and probes. Crafters now using TT isn't what has started this downfall.

Look at the auction house, there are tons of weapons that are dropped by mobs, the ones that are crafted...nobody wants. Where is the incentive?...you take away EP and you think the demand for weapons is going to come back? no it wont...its not the crafters that create the demand for weapons, its the hunters. If the crafters start crafting weapons again, your going to get a ton flooding the market at lower and lower prices and you think crafters will pay a decent MU if they cant get a decent return themselves? I think not.

You take away EP and your not solving the problem. You will just find something else to blame for it instead as MU isn't magically going to come back. If anything, MA will start losing money as many of those crafters will just leave the game. meaning less cycled peds.....then MA will need to find that income elsewhere...I wonder what they would change to do that?

Yes, it is what caused the downfall. Exactly right after these bp's appeared the gamblers mostly stopped using materials sold by hunters and miners. The problem with crafted items not being able to compete with looted items had already existed for years.
 
If anything in my experience the number of looted guns and armour has reduced rather than increased since pre-EP IV days.

The E.L.M and MM Edition weapons did have a distinct impact on the number of weapons available to be purchased however they are slowly starting to die out now which will in turn increase the need for weapons to either be made or looted.
 
Personally my logs tell me that hunting and mining markup averages (yes even after amp mu and weapon mu were calculated) were much better than they are now. I used to be able to regularly hit a 6-8% profit margin w/ lvl 5 amps and unamped mining was basically guaranteed profits no matter where you mined.

Hell even muscle oil was at 105%+ regularly.

This was early 2014 of course.

The last shred of "good old days" EU had.
 
i dont know why people just cant fucking read.
ill explain it again:
the point is NOT removing ALL EP BPs. It is ONLY about EP4.

when u just remove EP4 bp you keep the low residue price, it may go up a bit though but nothing bad bout it.
the people who want to skill "cheap" still can do that. it still has a higher cycle speed than any miner or hunter using tt shit only but whatever. no problem here.
and the gamblers and ath chasers need to pay MU like any other fucking profession as well.
that the stuff doesnt get bought is another thing that has to be fixed but the initial MU problem would be mostly solved.

sorry to say this but who doesnt get it is just plain retarded or blind due to his gambling madness.
 
With Ludvig here now, it's a good time to bump this up and get some answers. I sure hope MA plans to fix this. If they are not going to fix it and keep it the same we need to know if it is true that MA is moving away from a RCE based game into a true casino based game and what changes this my cause us.
 
Fire out the Mindark developer leader! Right now, and make a real economy system! RIGHT FUCKING NOW!
 
Fire out the Mindark developer leader! Right now, and make a real economy system! RIGHT FUCKING NOW!

Im fine with it, as long as the new doesnt take any of ur idiotic ideas :wise:
 
Maybe they just need to put in some iron missions for crafting :D No need to remove explosive prints.. Im sure atleast some people will start making other items again for the skillgains/rewards from the quests?

:lolup: :wtg: :yay:
 
Maybe they just need to put in some iron missions for crafting :D No need to remove explosive prints.. Im sure atleast some people will start making other items again for the skillgains/rewards from the quests?

:lolup: :wtg: :yay:

We need more items to craft before we can have iron missions. A majority of item bps require materials that don't drop anymore.
 
With Ludvig here now, it's a good time to bump this up and get some answers. I sure hope MA plans to fix this. If they are not going to fix it and keep it the same we need to know if it is true that MA is moving away from a RCE based game into a true casino based game and what changes this my cause us.

So where did Ludvig go anyway? I see he really never did reply to this thread. Sad but this is the future of MA my bet. They moving away from RCE and going fully blown casino. Nothing wrong with that if they make money and start working on the game again.
 
... Sad but this is the future of MA my bet. They moving away from RCE and going fully blown casino. ...

It really seems Mindark is changing its business model to a full casino - where the house always wins -, with no Market value to give a chance for players to win something.. :(
 
I refer you to this post:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-EU-Economy-An-Analysis&p=3478485#post3478485

This is honestly the best well thought out and explained post that covers explosive projectiles and the changing economy. It's long but well worth the read if you really are serious about looking at this EP BP thing from all angels.

To be fair, markups were starting to slip for a lot of things well before the explosive blueprint came on to the scene so you can't simply blame them for all the markup problems in the game. Even high end gear is selling for a lot less than it was several years ago.

All things considered I think the explosive projectiles are just fine the way they are...

Yes, they seem to take a bit of the variety out of the game when most of what you see is people spamming EP globals and HOFs all day. But it's not as if other items don't global and hof just as much. It's just that you don't see them as often on the board because all the gamblers that used to work all the high cost per click items have simply moved on to something that's easier and has these benefits:

  • No random markup for resources they need
  • No waiting for orders to be filled to get the best price for resources
  • No waiting for certain resources to become available
  • No need to wait to sell all crafted items for markup to cycle the peds
  • No more having to undercut all crafters to sell quickly
  • A uniform BP that all gamblers use that's just click and go simple (no need to guess what's got potential to HoF big).

Anyways, the debate of markups is nothing new. Hunters complained that all loots (oils and misc crap) have no markup citing it not being fair because miners get resources with large markups even for common stuff....etc. Everyone's always claiming the grass is greener in the other profession and blame another professions for the shortcomings in the one the avatar has chosen to focus on.

Bottom line, it's all about balance and sustainability and I think miners have just been spoiled for so long with higher than normal markups that now that the system has been corrected people are upset because mining is just as hard as the other professions now to break even or make a profit with little real strategy implemented. You can still profit mining but there's more strategy required now, one simply can't fall back on blindly going out there with no plan dropping probes all willy nilly and jsut falling back on the markup to save their ass for dumb play.

In other words, many are no longer able to simple dunk their net in the stream and pull out as many fish as the seasoned anglers our there meticulously selecting the right bate and tackle to pull in the fish.

With EP's in play...


  • Resources are plentyful and cheap
  • Crafting is cheaper to get into and easier to break even on QTY runs
  • Hunters are able to buy crafted gear cheaper as crafters don't have to pass the markup of their resources on to the buyers
  • Miners are able to buy cheaper gear and amps as crafters don't have to pass the markup of their resources on to the buyers. Amps are at RECORD lows right now making them more viable for long term mining.
  • There are less crazy swings in markup for things that were heavily affected by the actions of the big gamblers in game.

The only negatives I see with EP is...
  • The hof board is covered with EP's (who cares?)
  • Most resources have much less markup making mining harder
 
Add me too.

Ocelot Efim Lance
 
I refer you to this post:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-EU-Economy-An-Analysis&p=3478485#post3478485

This is honestly the best well thought out and explained post that covers explosive projectiles and the changing economy. It's long but well worth the read if you really are serious about looking at this EP BP thing from all angels.

To be fair, markups were starting to slip for a lot of things well before the explosive blueprint came on to the scene so you can't simply blame them for all the markup problems in the game. Even high end gear is selling for a lot less than it was several years ago.

All things considered I think the explosive projectiles are just fine the way they are...

Yes, they seem to take a bit of the variety out of the game when most of what you see is people spamming EP globals and HOFs all day. But it's not as if other items don't global and hof just as much. It's just that you don't see them as often on the board because all the gamblers that used to work all the high cost per click items have simply moved on to something that's easier and has these benefits:

  • No random markup for resources they need
  • No waiting for orders to be filled to get the best price for resources
  • No waiting for certain resources to become available
  • No need to wait to sell all crafted items for markup to cycle the peds
  • No more having to undercut all crafters to sell quickly
  • A uniform BP that all gamblers use that's just click and go simple (no need to guess what's got potential to HoF big).

Anyways, the debate of markups is nothing new. Hunters complained that all loots (oils and misc crap) have no markup citing it not being fair because miners get resources with large markups even for common stuff....etc. Everyone's always claiming the grass is greener in the other profession and blame another professions for the shortcomings in the one the avatar has chosen to focus on.

Bottom line, it's all about balance and sustainability and I think miners have just been spoiled for so long with higher than normal markups that now that the system has been corrected people are upset because mining is just as hard as the other professions now to break even or make a profit with little real strategy implemented. You can still profit mining but there's more strategy required now, one simply can't fall back on blindly going out there with no plan dropping probes all willy nilly and jsut falling back on the markup to save their ass for dumb play.

In other words, many are no longer able to simple dunk their net in the stream and pull out as many fish as the seasoned anglers our there meticulously selecting the right bate and tackle to pull in the fish.

With EP's in play...


  • Resources are plentyful and cheap
  • Crafting is cheaper to get into and easier to break even on QTY runs
  • Hunters are able to buy crafted gear cheaper as crafters don't have to pass the markup of their resources on to the buyers
  • Miners are able to buy cheaper gear and amps as crafters don't have to pass the markup of their resources on to the buyers. Amps are at RECORD lows right now making them more viable for long term mining.
  • There are less crazy swings in markup for things that were heavily affected by the actions of the big gamblers in game.

As you put it very well, this game would be much better off if MA would simply just remove the RCE part of the game and simply make it a subscription based game with all items User Bound. Doing this would be a big win/win for both sides. We the player would have fun playing the game while MA started to make money again. I do hope that MA does read your post here. One more notch on why MA should listen and make this a true non-RCE game like the rest of the games in the world.



The only negatives I see with EP is...
  • The hof board is covered with EP's (who cares?)
  • Most resources have much less markup making mining harder

Wait a second here? You lost me? Didn't you just read what you just typed?
 
Please include my name in your petition

Xavier Jr Riquelme

:)
 
As you put it very well, this game would be much better off if MA would simply just remove the RCE part of the game and simply make it a subscription based game with all items User Bound. Doing this would be a big win/win for both sides. We the player would have fun playing the game while MA started to make money again. I do hope that MA does read your post here. One more notch on why MA should listen and make this a true non-RCE game like the rest of the games in the world.

The only reason many of us joined was because it didn't have a subscription and it was RCE. With many other games going free to play the only thing left is the RCE. Make it sub. and remove the RCE you've pretty much killed off EU as the game play doesn't even come close to other games. I sure as hell wouldn't pay a sub to MA to play EU.

btw Add me but they need to change a hell of lot more than a couple of EP blueprints. The dev team needs some new blood at the top for a start and someone who isn't chasing the latest gaming fad. I'm surprised they haven't announced a pokemon go style add on to compets yet.
 
The vast majority was joined to this game because it is a Real Cash Economy. But explosive projectiles BP and others BP using components only from TT are not helping to promote a RCE (only is helping to convert entropia universe in a full casino). On the other hand, those who want to pay subscription in a game without RCE can play WOW or a lot of similar games. Thats my opinion (using my bad english.. :D).
 
The vast majority was joined to this game because it is a Real Cash Economy. But explosive projectiles BP and others BP using components only from TT are not helping to promote a RCE (only is helping to convert entropia universe in a full casino). On the other hand, those who want to pay subscription in a game without RCE can play WOW or a lot of similar games. Thats my opinion (using my bad english.. :D).
Let's decompile this notion. What does EP BP contribute to the economy? That is, what does it produce that is of value to other players? Its product. Can't use rockets/grenades without EP. What's the (economically) strong point of rockets/grenades? PvP. How does PvP contribute to the economy? It provides a way for the affluent to buy themselves a whole lot of fun by blasting peds at one another indiscriminately (let's face it, Entropia's PvP isn't exactly nuanced / complex). But this contribution to the economy is indirect. It increases MindArk's wealth directly; it adds to the overall budget from which loots can be drawn (though whether MindArk uses such input is debatable); and it provides economic incentive for the production / gathering of big rocket launchers. Oh, and of armor. Oh, and of vehicles, maybe. What's the weak point of rockets/grenades? For a hunter's use, their eco is shit. :poop:

In conclusion, my opinion, and it is only that:
EP BP is shit.
 
For a hunter's use, their eco is shit.

But sometimes its not all about eco....if that were the case 80% of the weapons around that I see people selling for insane amounts are shit.....however sometimes, just sometimes...it is fun just to pull out an overpowered rocket and blow away 10 mobs in one hit that you have conveniently gathered up...just to see what the outcome would be???

Then take a sigh of relief and know that the 2 hours of eco grinding you did, gave you that 10 seconds of fun....and now its back to reality.
 
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