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Developer Notes #14 - Loot 2.0 Update

Maybe it should have said that the players that cycled 50K+ ped enjoyed losses of only 1.4%. "I keep telling you Clem we need more volume" :eyecrazy:
 
Thanks for the reply Charlie on:
I wonder what those returns are ??? (players not joined in 2017 but without high turnover).

The thing is, your statistics should be averages, so overall the category most people fall into should show a stable figure, even if individuals will fluctuate, just as beginners will if they are lucky or unlucky on a good multi early on in their game history.
This was my question - you should be easily able to grab an average that most of us fall into, surely.

I'm assuming that for some reason the average returns are lower or else you really could give us that stat too, say all players under 10k peds turnover since 11th Sept....

You have tried to explain that individual need to stabilise their returns through enough kills, which could well be 50k mobs for a 'reasonable' expectation of having had a couple of high enough multis to nudge up to 97%.

Even then, getting or not getting the average number of high multis will still make quite a difference; after all, a 500x multi on a 300 hp mob will make a difference of 500 peds on a turnover of 50k peds, so 1% difference right there and then (or minus 1% to only 96% or so if a player doesn't hit one...)
 
Doesn't matter how many threads we get;

Players are still trying to understand what returns we're supposed to be getting, because players don't like what they're getting.

It's like being thrown in a swimming pool with full clothes, thick coat and heavy boots, and MA says; You keep asking us why you're still treading water, so what we've done is switched on the music to make it a little more comfortable for you.

That thought, just makes me laugh.

Rick

edit: On a more serious note, I do welcome any improvement to players ability to keep shooting.
 
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Awesome info thanks for certian for the communication.

I have one question that has been burning for awhile, in regards to skills and the values applied to them.

Charlie|MindArk said:
The amount of turnover isn't very relevant to the average return or volatility in return for any individual player.
Turnover or PED "Cycled" is all PED decayed/destroyed/spent on killing a creature, this means decay for weapons, armor, ammo, healing, attachments etc. It has nothing to do with deposits, trade terminals or repair terminals etc.

Most of the decay from healing and using armor is now compensated for in the loot of the mob.

As mentioned earlier it includes all decay of weapons, ammo, armor etc associated with killing the creature.
The loot system never accounts for markup.
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Based on a combo of these statements, and mention that skill rewards were deducted from CLD revenue awhile back:

Are skills accounted for in loot return, and if so I would assume there is some sort of markup applied on these if CLD revenues/loot returned do indeed deduct this cost?

Thanks in advance.
 
RickEngland said:
It's like being thrown in a swimming pool with full clothes, thick coat and heavy boots, and MA says; You keep asking us why you're still treading water, so what we've done is switched on the music to make it a little more comfortable for you.

That thought, just makes me laugh.

Rick
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PeBcgur.gif
 
RickEngland said:
Doesn't matter how many threads we get;

Players are still trying to understand what returns we're supposed to be getting, because players don't like what they're getting.


edit: On a more serious note, I do welcome any improvement to players ability to keep shooting.
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Best response I've seen (I do appreciate all those that replied to my thoughts also)
That is what it boils down to - we are not happy with the returns. Sure people will never be happy with "loosing" money, but the rate that it takes in this game continues to be so high that it is either not worth the risk, or pure insanity doing the same things and expecting different results. I see what Smigs says and hold that to be truth. I don't roll as much, but it's the experience I have. I see hunt 300 ped agro and you'll be more likely to do better than 300 ped on Proteron . Sounds nice, but when you can shoot through 300 ped on agro in 1 hour and your broke... seems like crap either way.

I really really appreciate the feedback and communication from MA thank you - and please keep it up.
 
Thx for this comunication it is realy apreciated :wtg:

Charlie|MindArk said:
No, there still is no personal loot pool.


No, DPP and Efficiency are not the same thing. DPP affects loot composition and critical hit/damage etc affect the DPP. Efficiency directly affects average TT return by 0-7%.





The amount of turnover isn't very relevant to the average return or volatility in return for any individual player. To reach a stable average return it's really the amount of loot instances or creatures killed that matters. As an example, if a player kills 2 Sand Kings spending about 5000 PED to do so the expected loot returned on those 2 kills can vary greatly. If instead killing 200,000 Punies also about 5000 PED the expected loot return is going to be very close to the expected average of 96%+ seen in the 2017 group. A more realistic example of this is perhaps spending 300 PED hunting Proterons vs spending 300 PED hunting small Argonauts where the Argonaut hunt will usually yield similar results and the Proteron hunt results can be all over the place since the loot events are so few.
The reason turnover is chosen as the metric to present these statistics is because number of kills doesn't really say much about which level of players are in which category since anyone can kill a large number of mobs if they are small enough.



Turnover or PED "Cycled" is all PED decayed/destroyed/spent on killing a creature, this means decay for weapons, armor, ammo, healing, attachments etc. It has nothing to do with deposits, trade terminals or repair terminals etc.



These numbers are averages, most players in each category are going to be either above or below said number.


As mentioned in a previous answer, the most important part for stable returns is the amount of kills or loot events not the amount of turnover. Most new players have very low turnover but hunt mobs like punies and therefore kill a large amount of mobs, like 1000 as you mentioned. This does produce results pretty close to the average for most new players.



Most of the decay from healing and using armor is now compensated for in the loot of the mob. On top of this the actual amount of decay to the armor per damage absorbed was reduced greatly. Overall the cost for healing and armor usage is less than 5% of what it used to be.


Yes it is still ongoing and we hope to be able to keep it this way.
As mentioned earlier it includes all decay of weapons, ammo, armor etc associated with killing the creature. Repairing simply moves PED from one place to another much like buying/selling things from the TT, neither has an effect on loot or MindArk revenues.
The loot system never accounts for markup. Not on markup spent on things like enhancers or limited weapons, nor on markup gained from loot such as oils, items and ESI etc, markup values are just transactions between players. It is always TT in vs TT out. These statistics also do not include any loot that was paid as tax on land areas, so the returns are actually slightly higher than stated here.
If those tests of using/not using crit buffs were done during the last two weeks it would have coincided with the increase in overall loot returns and any result would have been skewed by that.
As for your personal returns I will not answer that here but you already have those answers in a support case and will have to post it yourself if you want it shared.


Correct.
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DavinFelth said:
Best response I've seen (I do appreciate all those that replied to my thoughts also)
That is what it boils down to - we are not happy with the returns. Sure people will never be happy with "loosing" money, but the rate that it takes in this game continues to be so high that it is either not worth the risk, or pure insanity doing the same things and expecting different results. I see what Smigs says and hold that to be truth. I don't roll as much, but it's the experience I have. I see hunt 300 ped agro and you'll be more likely to do better than 300 ped on Proteron . Sounds nice, but when you can shoot through 300 ped on agro in 1 hour and your broke... seems like crap either way.

I really really appreciate the feedback and communication from MA thank you - and please keep it up.
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You're not more likely to do better, you just won't have as wild of fluctuations because you'll have enough to actually do a half solid hunt and get some good loots and bad loots and, according to MA, even out to probably somewhere around 95-98% eventually, depending on what kind of setup you're running, which in my opinion is very fair in terms of getting some entertainment, gaining skills, a chance to get some epic loot, and the fact that you can hunt for markup and turn a profit if you've got an even half decent setup and choose the right mobs at the return rates the game currently gives.

Also, shoot through 300ped on Argonauts in 1 hour and you're broke? Are you serious? Are we even playing the same game?

Oh, you're probably talking about the Elites, where 300ped is enough to kill about 60 of them and is a mind blowingly low bankroll once again.

I would personally recommend a bankroll greater than 300ped even for Young Argonauts, though.

edit: just checked your EL and realized I'm replying to a guy who hasn't even played in a month :duh:
 
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Darkaruki said:
You're not more likely to do better, you just won't have as wild of fluctuations because you'll have enough to actually do a half solid hunt and get some good loots and bad loots and, according to MA, even out to probably somewhere around 95-98% eventually, depending on what kind of setup you're running, which in my opinion is very fair in terms of getting some entertainment, gaining skills, a chance to get some epic loot, and the fact that you can hunt for markup and turn a profit if you've got an even half decent setup and choose the right mobs at the return rates the game currently gives.

Also, shoot through 300ped on Argonauts in 1 hour and you're broke? Are you serious? Are we even playing the same game?

Oh, you're probably talking about the Elites, where 300ped is enough to kill about 60 of them and is a mind blowingly low bankroll once again.

I would personally recommend a bankroll greater than 300ped even for Young Argonauts, though.

edit: just checked your EL and realized I'm replying to a guy who hasn't even played in a month :duh:
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I disagree with the bankroll thing all together. I an the king of low bankroll hunts. For the first several years I played I never had more than 50 ped bankroll and did fine. My biggest losses were with large bankrolls 600 ped or more on Rexs, spiders and prots. My greatest returns were 50 ped or less and smaller mobs. I have been playing about 10 years and early on I got a 13K HOF (as I recall it was argo gather) and it was gone within 10 days or less. If only I would have know then what I know now that would have probably been my last deposit. And guess what the little mobs are just as fun a the big one for me I just won't have the chance of another big hit but hey its all about fun anyway.
 
CozMoDan said:
I disagree with the bankroll thing all together. I an the king of low bankroll hunts. For the first several years I played I never had more than 50 ped bankroll and did fine. My biggest losses were with large bankrolls 600 ped or more on Rexs, spiders and prots. My greatest returns were 50 ped or less and smaller mobs. I have been playing about 10 years and early on I got a 13K HOF (as I recall it was argo gather) and it was gone within 10 days or less. If only I would have know then what I know now that would have probably been my last deposit. And guess what the little mobs are just as fun a the big one for me I just won't have the chance of another big hit but hey its all about fun anyway.
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600 ped on 6 ped per kill rex are 100 kills. 600 ped on 9 ped per kill prots are 66 kills.
50 ped on 10 pec per kill mobs are 500 kills...
 
Charlie|MindArk said:
No, there still is no personal loot pool.
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So basically shoot a lot and 'hope' for good %. Shoot a lot and 'hope' for big ESI.
With the DPP model you could prove it's not a gambling game. After loot 2.0, can you still do it?

While I understand the need of experiments to see what fits best for everyone, some of these experiments are very expensive... shall we wait while you figure it all out? I had days with 100$ cost to play. 'Ridiculous' is an understatement...
 
Evey said:
So basically shoot a lot and 'hope' for good %. Shoot a lot and 'hope' for big ESI.
With the DPP model you could prove it's not a gambling game. After loot 2.0, can you still do it?

While I understand the need of experiments to see what fits best for everyone, some of these experiments are very expensive... shall we wait while you figure it all out? I had days with 100$ cost to play. 'Ridiculous' is an understatement...
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if you are sitting in a cinema the whole day, watching 5 movies you very well may end up at the same amount though...
 
67$ per day average last 3 months, before June was 17.5$ per day
fun "game", and the return system is a holy cow - it cannot be wrong, only players can be - also for buying stuff MA markets and then breaks one day. its our fault.
Evey said:
I had days with 100$ cost to play. 'Ridiculous' is an understatement...
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Since your in a talkative mood Ludvig.
Perhaps you can comment on the breach of trust knocking the the investera in gear off their feet and how you ever going to rebuild this confidence again.

Without players being confident in buying items your gonna be out of business in notime.
 
carle said:
Since your in a talkative mood Ludvig.
Perhaps you can comment on the breach of trust knocking the the investera in gear off their feet and how you ever going to rebuild this confidence again.

Without players being confident in buying items your gonna be out of business in notime.
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could you tell me why they are out of business if people dont invest thousands of dollars in items? the MU of items is totally irrelevant for MA. they only need turnover. and they only have to worry for the TT value in the system.
and when looking at you guys many of you got your investment back a loong time ago. wasnt it justine who made something like 800k peds profit with her gear? i suspect its the same at many of you guys. so now you cry because you only got the profit from hunting but cant sell your items for profit anymore?
i think it should be normal that items lose value. just like they do in reality. it is the exact same in this game. and that surprises you?
 
Me Really Never said:
could you tell me why they are out of business if people dont invest thousands of dollars in items? the MU of items is totally irrelevant for MA. they only need turnover. and they only have to worry for the TT value in the system.
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True. In all honesty lower cost to play could increase player base by appealing to many more casual players...


(I still think is's a funny subconscious dev accident that wasn't such an accident that the visual display on max markup thing in shops was built the way it was that cuts off upper digits due to rounding not showing that high since original project entropia devs had no intention of markup going as extreme as it has on many things over the years)
oops.jpg


Now just fix it more... no reason btau should be so rare when it's used in a level 1 b.p, etc.
 
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"Most of the decay from healing and using armor is now compensated for in the loot of the mob. On top of this the actual amount of decay to the armor per damage absorbed was reduced greatly. Overall the cost for healing and armor usage is less than 5% of what it used to be."

Who cares if decay from healing and armor is included in loot, if it's 95% LESS. Even though this might sound good, think about it. Skills and gear that apply, are now much less important.... and MA's portion of decay and income has to be less, and that has to be made back somewhere. It just seems too wild a swing. The %, within reason, doesn't mean that much to players if it's compensated for in loot. -95%, really?
 
Oh come on, this myth that MU does not help MA is quite silly.

MA were so keen to have a slice of MU, they introduced direct revenue collection on bound items, galactic mission, weapon upgrades. Not to mention other slightly indirect methods of ped burn such as tiering, space ship upgrades, pet levelling, plus more. (i.e. that is to say non-lootable activities)

Well MU most certainly contributes to cash deposits, there's no doubt about that. Especially if the seller burns those deposited peds (from another player) to generate revenue doing in-game activities.

The fact that MA said its TT in V TT out, means the MU has to be paid from somewhere.

The real indicator I'd like to know from so called top ubers, is actual amount of long term deposits less withdrawls, not in-game profits as such.

If a top gamer, bought a weapon for 30K peds, spends another 30K tiering it, total costs 60K peds, and makes 40K ped total profit from that item, then they're still down 20K (if their item becomes unsellable, which could happen with eco stats).

Now add in the loss on item devaluation, and those numbers "could be" worse that a mid-level depositor trying to survive every month on 1000 deposited peds. Sure the uber had a ton more fun I'd expect. But it's still all smoke and mirrors. Just moves the loss to items, rather than returns from shooting.

Smiling.

Rick

edit: Lets take CLD as good example. MA sold Caly for $6m, the deeds have doubled. If the turn on those deeds (sales) has also doubled since they became 2K+ ped each. Who has got the extra $6m dollars???? Are people saying no cash deposits were made. I'm sure MA made more money from investment banking than in-game revenue generation, if we looked at "cash receipts"....funny. That's talking about just one type of item in game!!!!!

sorry edit 2: Under that scenario what's the best way to wipe $6m of extra potential MU off your books? (that might be withdrawn in future). Reduce cost to play, watch CLD's go back to 1K peds....just like magic money for nothing. This reduction in cost to play, has more bigger motives than simply allowing us to shoot longer. "If" it brings more players in, then the deeds will rise again.....but didn't you already pay for that to happen.....lol. MA accountants are Gods, I often want to knell before their genius. Or is it that we're fools? Bit of both of I guess.
 
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Me Really Never said:
600 ped on 6 ped per kill rex are 100 kills. 600 ped on 9 ped per kill prots are 66 kills.
50 ped on 10 pec per kill mobs are 500 kills...
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Not sure what you are saying:). Unless you are agreeing with the MA guy about mob turnover as in killing as many as you can.
 
CozMoDan said:
Not sure what you are saying:). Unless you are agreeing with the MA guy about mob turnover as in killing as many as you can.
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There is nothing to agree or disagree with. It's just a statement of numbers and mathematical laws. You could as well accuse someone of agreeing with gravity.
 
Jeeze you people are you really that dumb. I sell an item on the AU worth 100 ped and list it at 101% MU ok with me so far ?
I sell another item worth 100 ped at 200% MU, are the AU fees the same for both sales ? Who exactly gets those AU fees ?
 
CozMoDan said:
Jeeze you people are you really that dumb. I sell an item on the AU worth 100 ped and list it at 101% MU ok with me so far ?
I sell another item worth 100 ped at 200% MU, are the AU fees the same for both sales ? Who exactly gets those AU fees ?
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What does this have to do with auction fees all of a sudden? It was about kill counts to get statistical accuracy. I am too dumb to follow you.

Edit: Yes, MA profits from markup trading between players through auction fees. At the point of loot "production" however, markups have no significance to them. Is this so hard to keep apart?
 
San said:
What does this have to do with auction fees all of a sudden? It was about kill counts to get statistical accuracy. I am too dumb to follow you.

Edit: Yes, MA profits from markup trading between players through auction fees. At the point of loot "production" however, markups have no significance to them. Is this so hard to keep apart?
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Actually, they've previously stated the auction fees are returned into loot and are in place as a counter measure to market manipulation.

With that said, yeah, I have no idea how we got on this topic.

Cozz, there is absolutely no way a 50ped bankroll will let you get the most markup out of your loot from almost any mob in the game let alone get you through dry periods, let alone allow you even have an actual hunt without having to go back and forth from the outpost every few, or few dozen kills.

I see on your EL you have been doing nothing but punies for the past week or two, maybe you should say that you find a 50ped bankroll to be adequate for exclusively killing punies.
 
Darkaruki said:
Actually, they've previously stated the auction fees are returned into loot and are in place as a counter measure to market manipulation.
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I wasn't aware they said this, would you possibly have a link? I am very interested in learning more about this. Auction fees are a major point of contention I've been meaning to take up since forever, but keep discovering gaps in knowledge.
 
Rick and Cozmo, you are going absurd. "where are AU fees going". "where is MU going". MU is pvp. If 200 CLD were bought by player X for 1k ped each and sold to player Y for 2k ped each, means that player Y deposited 400k ped to buy them. What is so mysterious? Ofc primarly MU would go depo to withdrawal, conceptually and ofc MA is trying hard to tempt players with PEDsinks. Is obvious. But mission galactica is not mandatory.

One of you is doing punies with 50 ped and he is fine. FIVE DOLLARS. FIVE. The other is doing taming and according to your own statements you're fine with what you put in (and the mu on certain rare pets should surely help a bit).

So you moan about what? :scratch2:

Regarding the ROI of an uber gear buyer, consult Piotr's "1.0 logs". If that is not eloquent, dunno what to say.

Lastly, MA must also have an income and we're trying to burn each other on who to pay it, I hope so much is obvious.

If there are now swings, loot is too dull. If there are swings, loot is too volatile. Nothing is good enough for the average entropian.
 
San said:
Edit: Yes, MA profits from markup trading between players through auction fees.
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I realize it's an ancient quote and it might have been changed since then, but just for the record:

Marco|Mindark said:
No, MindArks revenue stream is from decay. So it is not an urban legend. All other areas (auction fee, ammo, etc) is cycled back into the economy.
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Svarog said:
I realize it's an ancient quote and it might have been changed since then, but just for the record:
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I am also aware of that statement but I , like you, wonder if it still applies because as you said that was a long time ago and I am not sure if Marco is still around. When I first started 10 years ago he was around some and made statements but have not heard from him in a long while, may have missed it. Also I think that statement was before the "New" investors.
 
Darkaruki said:
Actually, they've previously stated the auction fees are returned into loot and are in place as a counter measure to market manipulation.

With that said, yeah, I have no idea how we got on this topic.

Cozz, there is absolutely no way a 50ped bankroll will let you get the most markup out of your loot from almost any mob in the game let alone get you through dry periods, let alone allow you even have an actual hunt without having to go back and forth from the outpost every few, or few dozen kills.

I see on your EL you have been doing nothing but punies for the past week or two, maybe you should say that you find a 50ped bankroll to be adequate for exclusively killing punies.
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Actually I have had 532 runs and currently at 101.38 % in returns. Moreover as I stated before I hunt mid-mobs until the luck ran out but did fairly well for a period of time until it stopped. Wasted a bunch of ped trying to get equipment to hunt bigger mobs, very stupid. I have depended on loot and not MU, the only time I see MU is when I pay it:). Anyway as I said one just needs to find what type of game this is for him and mine is lower to mid level mobs and that is what I enjoy. And BTW I have hunt spiders and prots and everything around that level and only 3 times did I ever get anything with much MU and it was a new item helmet (from a droka) and it was plus 3500 ped as I recall, a 159 ped esi from exosor(around 1500 ped) mature and a piece of armor(1640 ped) from a hogglo. Other than that in all my hunting I hardly ever got anything over 125 to 150 percent
 
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Me Really Never said:
and when looking at you guys many of you got your investment back a loong time ago. wasnt it justine who made something like 800k peds profit with her gear? i suspect its the same at many of you guys. so now you cry because you only got the profit from hunting but cant sell your items for profit anymore?
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Ohohohohoh.

AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAH

800k ? You sure ? i'm rich weeeee !!!!!!!!!
Can you send me these ped please.

Don't speak if you don't know anything. I never named you, don't name me !
I'm like almost all players. My TT value items, skills include are still under my investment. Same if i add actual and MU before loot 2.0.

Stop to cry, don't be jealous this not beautifull.
 
CozMoDan said:
Actually I have had 532 runs and currently at 101.38 % in returns. Moreover as I stated before I hunt mid-mobs until the luck ran out but did fairly well for a period of time until it stopped. Wasted a bunch of ped trying to get equipment to hunt bigger mobs, very stupid. I have depended on loot and not MU, the only time I see MU is when I pay it:). Anyway as I said one just needs to find what type of game this is for him and mine is lower to mid level mobs and that is what I enjoy. And BTW I have hunt spiders and prots and everything around that level and only 3 times did I ever get anything with much MU and it was a new item helmet (from a droka) and it was plus 3500 ped as I recall, a 159 ped esi from exosor(around 1500 ped) mature and a piece of armor(1640 ped) from a hogglo. Other than that in all my hunting I hardly ever got anything over 125 to 150 percent
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hunt 1 qaffaz and the chance of you looting an item more than 150% is around 99%. its the hide that ahs a MU of 150-200%.
 
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