Info: Calypso Land Deed ROI tracker

Retrac said:

As a holder of 60 CLDs purchased on the original auctioning, I must say.. Mindark never promised 30% returns on the 1000Ped investment. They gave an estimate based on current activity at the time of 27-30% (that is 270-300 PED/year -> 5.19-5.76/week) with a clear caveate that this was totally dependent on the revenue from the game on selected activities. For a while they were matching that level.

So Several points:

• Their "Prospectus" therefor precludes disappointment at all until it is less than 27%.
• Consider your purchase of CLD as "spent money" since they have 0.00 TT
• Right now - it is running around 20-25% avg ROI on 1000Peds. Show me another investment that returns that well in the world before complaining that they are not going bankrupt in order to pay you an additional ped.
• If you paid 1350peds for one, do not expect to get 30% unless a LOT more people start playing.

Well we just had the interview with Kim & he said TT return is higher then b4.
So my next question would be, who's cut got smaller?
MA? Calypso team? CLD owners? All of the above?



In short - be happy with the returns you are getting - unless you bought 5,000 of them, do not plan on them providing you with replacement income, but they do make it a lot more fun to play the game.

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Well we just had the interview with Kim & he said TT return is higher then b4.
So my next question would be, who's cut got smaller?
MA? Calypso team? CLD owners? All of the above?

just my 2 PECs

das said:

Well we just had the interview with Kim & he said TT return is higher then b4.
So my next question would be, who's cut got smaller?
MA? Calypso team? CLD owners? All of the above?

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Don't know - But those are fair questions to ask - I just get tired of seeing people complain that Mindark/Planet Calypso is failing to deliver on a promise, when in fact they never made a promise - but in fact delivered a very accurate assessment of the returns at the time. If the revenues had continued at the same pace as the first 4 months, the avg payout return would have been 28.19% on 1000Ped investment which is well within their 27-30% projection made prior to the release.

If you look at the trend - it has been steadily decreasing until recently and has kind of a light bounce off the bottom (hopefully this bounce signals a trend upward, but that depends more on the player base than on the company running the game - since the formula for the payouts is supposedly fixed to the gross TT revenue stream.)

das said:

Well we just had the interview with Kim & he said TT return is higher then b4.
So my next question would be, who's cut got smaller?
MA? Calypso team? CLD owners? All of the above?

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He said in that interview that they where.

Art Jennifer said:

He said in that interview that they where.

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(lowering their share from Calypso income)

Now that bring forth an interesting question:
IFF AR (now seemingly Calypso) AB (?) has taken upon themselves to take a smaller cut:
does that imply they have given themselves the right to also lower CLD payouts?

If it's true that Calypso income is indeed up, CLD payouts should have increased by the same amount. I seem to recall Kim stating something about 25% (but I could be wrong), but I have seen no evidence in such (or any!) increased payout amounts correlating that claim.

What I mean is: Do CLD owners get 50% from Calypso AB's income, or 25% of MA's income from Calypso? IFF Calypso AB has now (without neither discussion nor information) decided to lower their own cut from 50% to, say 30%, i.e. giving MA 70%, it could mean CLD owners no longer get 25% of Calypso income, but only 15%!

Is that even on parity with what CLD owners had been led to believe from previous claims by MA/AR-representative(s)? I would personally say No - what I had been led to believe is that CLD owners would get 25% of Calypso income. Period.

I find this a very important question, as Calypso AB is AFAIK a 100% owned subsidiary (sp?) of MA.

tamlin said:

If it's true that Calypso income is indeed up, CLD payouts should have increased by the same amount. I seem to recall Kim stating something about 25% (but I could be wrong), but I have seen no evidence in such (or any!) increased payout amounts correlating that claim.

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This is what I was thinking when posting:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?241372-CLD-ROI-change

As soon as the events started this year the CLDs just seem to die as if no one was online playing. Now this could have been the case, but again it was just very odd that returns have been low these last few months. Lets just hope that it was due to no one joining in on the events.

Or..MA has changed the return?

OZtwo said:

Or..MA has changed the return?

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You know, I still don't even know what entity issued these deeds - is (was) it AR, or MindArk?

Logic would say it's MA, as we're all MA's customers - the "planet partners" just "get a piece of the pie". But judging by history how this company just loves to change company names (and therefore change books), and basically just (almost as if intentionally) make a mess for any person, entity or agency trying to audit them, I'm not convinced until I see a statement - a statement I can consider legally binding.

Let's not kid ourselves here, we're talking about 6 million USD. That's a measurable chunk of dough for a company of MindArk's size!

FFS, it's like I'm surrounded by children.

Kim did not say that income was up, he said numbers of new players were up. Which is true, anyone can see it, just look at all the newbies asking stuff on the forums. However, it will be some time before these new players have a significant effect on the CLD income.

If MA have upped the return rate as Kim claims (although I personally haven't noticed a difference), that would have been a Mindark decision, affecting all planets, and as long as the "percentage of revenue" hasn't changed then Calypso AB hasn't done anything untoward. And yes, that would affect CLD returns, and MA income, and Calypso AB income, but it is perfectly within their rights to do. There is zero rational basis to assume or even speculate that Calypso is taking a lower cut. I doubt very much whether one planet can change their return percentage indpendently, otherwise we'd have them doing that to compete with eachother. "Come to NI, 99% average TT return!".

Plus you whiny fucks have been complaining about loot returns for years, now MA actually changes it and you're all like "Noooo, My CLD returns!".

Children in fucking tinfoil hats.

Retrac said:

Mindark never promised 30% returns on the 1000Ped investment. They gave an estimate based on current activity at the time of 27-30% (that is 270-300 PED/year -> 5.19-5.76/week) with a clear caveate that this was totally dependent on the revenue from the game on selected activities. For a while they were matching that level.

In short - be happy with the returns you are getting - unless you bought 5,000 of them, do not plan on them providing you with replacement income, but they do make it a lot more fun to play the game.

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I realize they never promised a specific roi, but 30% was the advertised target average. So when its less than 30% I am am disappointed, when its 27-30% I am satisfied, and when it goes over 30% I am happy.

But the idea that I should be satisfied or happy with less than the advertised roi (based off previous years economy) seems alien to me.

Am I so disgruntled with clds return that I want to sell out? Not even close. I am however past the point of willingness to depo for more (because of ROI vrs MU). I will still cycle my loot into clds if I can. So is the sky falling on these? no, but I cant say I am "happy" with the returns. but that's a week to week basis. will take seeing what they are doing 5 years from now to really be certain.

Farmer Smurf said:

I realize they never promised a specific roi, but 30% was the advertised target average. So when its less than 30% I am am disappointed, when its 27-30% I am satisfied, and when it goes over 30% I am happy.

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So... when it's between 27% and 30% you are both disappointed and satisfied at the same time?

I did a chart of the CLD payoputs to compare 2012 and 2013 up to this Point.



link to the chart in my gallery.

The chart is showing a 4 week floating average to easyer see actual trends and not be distracted by the weekly fluctuations.

A few things I note:
- Payouts have been much more stable this year (less fluctuations).
- Payouts are currently on a small rise and a litle over what we had last year at this time.

The pic does not work, upload it in the gallery.

Futurama said:

The pic does not work, upload it in the gallery.

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As requested

Ionar said:

So... when it's between 27% and 30% you are both disappointed and satisfied at the same time?

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it's called schroedinger's cat

Man alot of people here act like they bought shares of something real.

It is a game, there are no promises, and if they decide to not pay out, then they don't have to.
Unless you signed some agreement the rest of us did not, you have no protection, no guarantee, no projected income.

This is the reality, the returns are a bonus.

Again, you own nothing. Be happy that your nothing gives something back.
And just because you paid more than nothing for nothing, does not mean it is worth anything more than nothing.

I am thrilled with the returns, a family friend / accountant manages several hundred million in stock fund/portfolios.

One of the prime funds they have is 17%, they manage millions on that fund alone, because you cannot generally get much better, without getting into legal /moral conflicts.

I mentioned the CLD's return, he laughed it off as an impossibility, or an outright scam. He is certain something is a miss, a game cannot make this much return off virtual things, when he cant with real things without a lot of work.


This is the reality for fund managers, these returns are questionable compared to the reality they see in general.

Another note to consider:

Just because new players are up and even activity as a whole is, does not mean that it reflects Calypso well.

Revenues are Caly only, during this event, and in the past few months, there had been a number of regular calypso players that have migrated to Arkadia.

We get a diluted share when more players are off planet.
Arkadia has seen much larger activity this year than in the past.
Once new Caly players become regular players over time, it should even out the revenues more.

This statement makes no sense...

forgo said:

Man alot of people here act like they bought shares of something real.

It is a game, there are no promises, and if they decide to not pay out, then they don't have to.
Unless you signed some agreement the rest of us did not, you have no protection, no guarantee, no projected income.

This is the reality, the returns are a bonus.

Again, you own nothing. Be happy that your nothing gives something back.
And just because you paid more than nothing for nothing, does not mean it is worth anything more than nothing.

I am thrilled with the returns, a family friend / accountant manages several hundred million in stock fund/portfolios.

One of the prime funds they have is 17%, they manage millions on that fund alone, because you cannot generally get much better, without getting into legal /moral conflicts.

I mentioned the CLD's return, he laughed it off as an impossibility, or an outright scam. He is certain something is a miss, a game cannot make this much return off virtual things, when he cant with real things without a lot of work.


This is the reality for fund managers, these returns are questionable compared to the reality they see in general.

Click to expand...

I am nearly as skeptical as most about the CLDs longevity for returns but for an accountant to state that the CLD return is a scam does not take into account any real information about the CLD return rate from MA's perspective. What percentage of CLD returns are actually cashed out. Probably significantly less than the 17% current total return based on 1300 CLD price(1400 actually now). A lot of CLDs are owned by lower end players and not ubers that spend their 'returns' on play. Effective return from MAs perspective = -0-. It also does not take into account that there is a dynamic cash flow associated with the CLD return that CLD owners are promised a part of. So you can't say that MA owes you nothing and has promised nothing. IF they reneged on their commitment to the CLD payout that would be an actionable legal case. Now, they could slowly and through subterfuge and offloading of players to new arenas...drain off players to other revenue sources and then 'close' Calypso...but I don't see that happening anytime soon and that would destroy the CLD issue for any planet partners in all reality. How does your fund manager determine that it is a scam or impossible without knowing facts about the issuance? What if the CLDs were offered at 10 ped each? The return would be astronomical. What if the CLD had been offered at 10k ped each? Returns would be terrible for the risk taken. The only issue that needs to be constantly monitored by CLD holders is what is the current risk of loss of equity to my CLD....i.e. what is the chance that my CLD could drop to -0- value in market value. Stock certificates are no different. They have (essentially) -0- value but the market pays more for them because they have a return. It sounds like your finance 'friend' has questionable finance knowledge to make sweeping statements like that, although I have some skepticism myself, there is current credibility to the CLD price based on return %age. And as more time is placed between issuance and continued consistent payouts...i.e. as the CLD gets some consistent history that people can 'trust' then they will be willing to accept more real world interest rates like 7-10%, maybe 12% which will drive the price of the CLD up to 2k per IMO...similarly to why people don't rely on high returns in mutual funds with 1 year or 3 year histories...

Brick

jaydub said:

I am nearly as skeptical as most about the CLDs longevity for returns but for an accountant to state that the CLD return is a scam does not take into account any real information about the CLD return rate from MA's perspective. What percentage of CLD returns are actually cashed out. Probably significantly less than the 17% current total return based on 1300 CLD price(1400 actually now). A lot of CLDs are owned by lower end players and not ubers that spend their 'returns' on play. Effective return from MAs perspective = -0-. It also does not take into account that there is a dynamic cash flow associated with the CLD return that CLD owners are promised a part of. So you can't say that MA owes you nothing and has promised nothing. IF they reneged on their commitment to the CLD payout that would be an actionable legal case. Now, they could slowly and through subterfuge and offloading of players to new arenas...drain off players to other revenue sources and then 'close' Calypso...but I don't see that happening anytime soon and that would destroy the CLD issue for any planet partners in all reality. How does your fund manager determine that it is a scam or impossible without knowing facts about the issuance? What if the CLDs were offered at 10 ped each? The return would be astronomical. What if the CLD had been offered at 10k ped each? Returns would be terrible for the risk taken. The only issue that needs to be constantly monitored by CLD holders is what is the current risk of loss of equity to my CLD....i.e. what is the chance that my CLD could drop to -0- value in market value. Stock certificates are no different. They have (essentially) -0- value but the market pays more for them because they have a return. It sounds like your finance 'friend' has questionable finance knowledge to make sweeping statements like that, although I have some skepticism myself, there is current credibility to the CLD price based on return %age. And as more time is placed between issuance and continued consistent payouts...i.e. as the CLD gets some consistent history that people can 'trust' then they will be willing to accept more real world interest rates like 7-10%, maybe 12% which will drive the price of the CLD up to 2k per IMO...similarly to why people don't rely on high returns in mutual funds with 1 year or 3 year histories...

Brick

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Just for the record, I don't think he is particularly open minded, or correct.
He is awesome with money, can invest well, but wont even consider to look at something that might be a better option. This is the older Generation. His loss really. Just a shame.
If you tell most people post 50 years old that you are getting better than average returns, in a video game,just look at the reaction.

That really is one of the big barriers here, the thought of money from "playing a game" cant really be realistic or true for most people. Therefore it must be a scam. That is what I was trying to say I think. )


I love the CLD's myself, and have quite a bit, so obviously I have some faith in the future here where most outsiders do not.

I do pretty much agree with everything you said. Many people who dont play video games would rather deny any possibility.

I don't disclose that I play anymore, its not worth the explanations and the questions on how, with almost always a "are you nuts" look.




I do pretty much agree with everything you said, in regards to the numbers the demand and trends and such.

I would be happy enough with 7% in all honesty, its still better than bank rates, goes to help my avatar, and in all reality I really like CLD's for the bank account like function. Capital is always waiting in case that super item I want comes up, plus they can always be converted fairly quick to PEDs. This is all without housing or votes too, which will be cool I think too.

forgo said:

I mentioned the CLD's return, he laughed it off as an impossibility, or an outright scam. He is certain something is a miss, a game cannot make this much return off virtual things, when he cant with real things without a lot of work.

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Did you mention the returns are paid with a digital fiat currency that is not regulated by any independent body?

I love my CLDs and will be buying more. I don't talk about Entropia very often because nobody has heard of it maybe I should, though. If more people started depositing and decaying, even small amounts, my ROI would go up

This is the hidden part of the CLD charm...

New avatar and depositor development! Everyone thinks CLDs are static sources of PED income....but as new players join...new depositors and decayers enter the system...whose to say in 5 years if the Calypso unique colonist population wont be twice what it is now...which could mean that your CLD would pay 9 ped per CLD if decay contribution rates were similar...which would drive returns up to 35% per CLD which wouldnt happen because CLD value would track the return rate and as it becomes more of a reliable and trustworthy 'investment'(again, it is just a game...so dont throw money here you cant burn in the fireplace) people will be willing to accept 10-12%...which could potentially triple your CLD value to 3-4k per deed NOT ACCOUNTING FOR THE FACT THAT TWICE AS MANY PEOPLE WOULD WANT DEEDS AT THAT TIME...so increase that amount by some other factor up to as much as double again....I personally am stoked as long as MA doesnt have some skulduggery with their finances and really is honest with their approach to this system I think they have a huge winner on their hands...we have to sell the game too...how many gamers do you know that dont play but would if you could tell them that you make money playing and have for 3 or 4 years straight? Booyah...I will never sell a CLD...only buying on pullbacks...I may get burned but oh well...living large!

Brick

forgo said:

Man alot of people here act like they bought shares of something real.

It is a game, there are no promises, and if they decide to not pay out, then they don't have to.
Unless you signed some agreement the rest of us did not, you have no protection, no guarantee, no projected income.

This is the reality, the returns are a bonus.

Again, you own nothing. Be happy that your nothing gives something back.
And just because you paid more than nothing for nothing, does not mean it is worth anything more than nothing.

Click to expand...

There are differences between these and shares in RL sure. But real shares can tank, there are no absolute guarantees there either.

You just have to factor in what you judge to be the risks (e.g. MA going broke or shutting up shop, MA stopping payouts (same thing basically, the damage to customer trust would be too big to recover from), etc) against the potential rewards. You'd do exactly the same thing with real shares.

If after going through that process you still value them at nothing, I'll happily pay you a Nova fragment for any you have.

jaydub said:

I am nearly as skeptical as most about the CLDs longevity for returns but for an accountant to state that the CLD return is a scam does not take into account any real information about the CLD return rate from MA's perspective. What percentage of CLD returns are actually cashed out. Probably significantly less than the 17% current total return based on 1300 CLD price(1400 actually now). A lot of CLDs are owned by lower end players and not ubers that spend their 'returns' on play. Effective return from MAs perspective = -0-. It also does not take into account that there is a dynamic cash flow associated with the CLD return that CLD owners are promised a part of. So you can't say that MA owes you nothing and has promised nothing. IF they reneged on their commitment to the CLD payout that would be an actionable legal case. Now, they could slowly and through subterfuge and offloading of players to new arenas...drain off players to other revenue sources and then 'close' Calypso...but I don't see that happening anytime soon and that would destroy the CLD issue for any planet partners in all reality. How does your fund manager determine that it is a scam or impossible without knowing facts about the issuance? What if the CLDs were offered at 10 ped each? The return would be astronomical. What if the CLD had been offered at 10k ped each? Returns would be terrible for the risk taken. The only issue that needs to be constantly monitored by CLD holders is what is the current risk of loss of equity to my CLD....i.e. what is the chance that my CLD could drop to -0- value in market value. Stock certificates are no different. They have (essentially) -0- value but the market pays more for them because they have a return. It sounds like your finance 'friend' has questionable finance knowledge to make sweeping statements like that, although I have some skepticism myself, there is current credibility to the CLD price based on return %age. And as more time is placed between issuance and continued consistent payouts...i.e. as the CLD gets some consistent history that people can 'trust' then they will be willing to accept more real world interest rates like 7-10%, maybe 12% which will drive the price of the CLD up to 2k per IMO...similarly to why people don't rely on high returns in mutual funds with 1 year or 3 year histories...

Brick

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Taking into account things like "people do not withdraw and use it ingame" is super high risk. Summer is comming. What if a huge portion of CLD owners decide to just sit back, enjoy vacation and let the CLD income roll in? Others might make withdraws for their vacations etc. It's still a very high risk. It can cause serious cash flow problems.


Yeah, as long as no one withdraws they can give whatever they want in CLD payouts, they can give out as many ATHs as they want. But what happens when people want to withdraw?

I bid 2....

Jimmy B said:

There are differences between these and shares in RL sure. But real shares can tank, there are no absolute guarantees there either.

You just have to factor in what you judge to be the risks (e.g. MA going broke or shutting up shop, MA stopping payouts (same thing basically, the damage to customer trust would be too big to recover from), etc) against the potential rewards. You'd do exactly the same thing with real shares.

If after going through that process you still value them at nothing, I'll happily pay you a Nova fragment for any you have.

Click to expand...

Nova fragments for EACH CLD...

Brick

Then...

Futurama said:

Taking into account things like "people do not withdraw and use it ingame" is super high risk. Summer is comming. What if a huge portion of CLD owners decide to just sit back, enjoy vacation and let the CLD income roll in? Others might make withdraws for their vacations etc. It's still a very high risk. It can cause serious cash flow problems.


Yeah, as long as no one withdraws they can give whatever they want in CLD payouts, they can give out as many ATHs as they want. But what happens when people want to withdraw?

Click to expand...

CLD price will drop as returns drop and I will start buying them up again ...its a commodity...study commodity values and you too will understand when is right time and when is wrong time to buy...like I said before...the only thing of interest is the endgame risk and if an endgame develops...knowing when to cash out...I hope that never comes and I think the game will only get more popular!

Brick

jaydub said:

I bid 2 Nova fragments for EACH CLD...

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Damnit. Someone ban this market manipulator!

forgo said:

One of the prime funds they have is 17%, they manage millions on that fund alone, because you cannot generally get much better, without getting into legal /moral conflicts.

I mentioned the CLD's return, he laughed it off as an impossibility, or an outright scam. He is certain something is a miss, a game cannot make this much return off virtual things, when he cant with real things without a lot of work.


This is the reality for fund managers, these returns are questionable compared to the reality they see in general.

Click to expand...

In a way he is somewhat right, in the long term i don't believe we would get an avarage return rate of 20% each year. Why not? because with that high return people would probably buy more and the price would go up, and when the price go up the ROI goes down. We have already seen the CLD increase from the original 1000 ped price. But in the short term you could get a higher than "normal" return before the price have increase to a price where the return/price have reached some kind of balance.

billairboy said:

In a way he is somewhat right, in the long term i don't believe we would get an avarage return rate of 20% each year

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MA and Calypso are so small they probably require this to sustain "life" - that's why they sold the CLD's. They traded a needed short-term cash injection (due to the See deal going south), for a long term revenue [was: income] reduction.

Edit: revenue vs. income. The income is obviously unaffected.

tamlin said:

MA and Calypso are so small they probably require this to sustain "life" - that's why they sold the CLD's. They traded a needed short-term cash injection (due to the See deal going south), for a long term revenue [was: income] reduction.

Edit: revenue vs. income. The income is obviously unaffected.

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Yup.....and besides....there's nothing to prevent them (MA & Calypso) from buying back all those CLDs when things get better for them. Kindda like how they bought back all those "stock thingys" a long time ago or so I heard.

sawachika said:

Yup.....and besides....there's nothing to prevent them (MA & Calypso) from buying back all those CLDs when things get better for them. Kindda like how they bought back all those "stock thingys" a long time ago or so I heard.

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While that's true, but it would be quite a risky move for them to take. Remember some people have more than 1k CLD (which is more than 140k USD in current market price).

If they decide to just take it away without adequate compensation, then it is probably enough money that some will decide to sue MindArk, most likely using security laws since CLD is too close to real life securities.

While I don't know what are their chances of winning nor am I interested to find out, but violating security laws (especially if you are trying to sell securities to public without following the proper process), you are looking at some heavy fines and lengthy jail terms. That's why I was quite concerned when CLD first popped up since if the local security regulators investigate this then they could be in a lot of trouble. Now tag onto SEC law violations (since I am sure at least 1 CLD holder is a US citizen/resident) then it could blow up in a big hurry.

Of course, it is by far the worse case scenario and I am not saying it is going to happen, but there is that potential.

glasszon said:

If they decide to just take it away without adequate compensation, then it is probably enough money that some will decide to sue MindArk, most likely using security laws since CLD is too close to real life securities.

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OK, when you deposit, you give money to mindark, you GIVE IT TO THEM.

In return, Mindark puts some peds on your AVATARS ped card, a virtul currency , in a virtual universe, a game.

These peds are worth NOTHING, unless you withdraw, and Mindark agree to convert these peds to irl funds by giving irl money back to you.

Thinking, even for a second, that CLD are any closer to real life securities, than a coat you buy ingame, or a 0 pec of dung pile you find ingame, is a serious mistake to make.

Legally, you dont own shit, you control your avatar, any obligations MA have are towards your avatar, not you.

So unless MA introduce a lawsuit system where your avatar can sue MA , well you just ran out of luck.

ermik said:

OK, when you deposit, you give money to mindark, you GIVE IT TO THEM.

In return, Mindark puts some peds on your AVATARS ped card, a virtul currency , in a virtual universe, a game.

These peds are worth NOTHING, unless you withdraw, and Mindark agree to convert these peds to irl funds by giving irl money back to you.

Thinking, even for a second, that CLD are any closer to real life securities, than a coat you buy ingame, or a 0 pec of dung pile you find ingame, is a serious mistake to make.

Legally, you dont own shit, you control your avatar, any obligations MA have are towards your avatar, not you.

So unless MA introduce a lawsuit system where your avatar can sue MA , well you just ran out of luck.

Click to expand...

I am not interested to get into an argument that goes as far back as this game existed, if you ever study law you will know nothing is certain. The only question is whether there is someone that thinks it is worthwhile to fight it over.

As to myself, I am only holding a very small amount of CLD and I could care less if MA decide to shut up shop tomorrow. Probably would be a good incentive to play another MMO again.

The only thing I will say is this: If you think virtual currency isn't worth anything, apparently the US government doesn't agree when they seize those bitcoin exchange operators for not complying with money exchange rules. Of course the money involved is a lot more than EU will ever be, but most reasonable person would think applying money exchange legislation to bitcoin would feel extremely excessive but it happened.

If you still feel very strongly then let's agree to disagree, not each person have the same opinion and I respect that, given our view is so different I don't think we will agree on this topic.