MA Not A Casinoe.. Think again.

[Snuggins]

He said with quite a lot of certainty...

So the only difference between spending 2000 PED total killing a mob a thousand times and spending 4000 PED total killing the same mob a thousand times is that the fee will be 200 PED in the first case and 400 PED in the second case?

And you will get twice as much skill from the exercise in the 4000 PED case.

That is how I understand it. Your total skill is a measure of your total losses due to MA's cut of decay, if I am on the right track with my theory.

 

[GullyFoyle]

For every ped tt you spend, you get 90 pecs tt back. No more, no less, and but over time.

Sounds even worse than lottery!

 

[The Nightbird]

He said with quite a lot of certainty...

So the only difference between spending 2000 PED total killing a mob a thousand times and spending 4000 PED total killing the same mob a thousand times is that the fee will be 200 PED in the first case and 400 PED in the second case?

Arrrg, it's taking a lot of time to load the pages :/

If you mean using non-maxed weapons or efficient weapons, I'm about 80% sure of my following answer of yes and no

-------

In the old days (up to a year ago, when pham started whining), no. HA and efficiency of the weapon determined everything so you could get 120% of tt spent back on nearly every run with the right weapons/skills AND STILL have globals and hofs as bonuses. My guess is that the cash came from the poor folks who uses uneconomical weapons, or MA didn't do their multi-variable calculus right when doing the loot formulas

My guess as to why this changed is that the previous system was basically a pyramid scheme, with the older more experienced players steadily sucking away the money of newcomers. The problem is of course that they withdrew their enormous profits and that newcomers became disgusted and left.


Now, nearly everything is avatar based when it comes to loot size. The more you lose, the bigger you hof, and vice versa. I first tested this for a year and made a turnover of 100,000 peds with no globals over 200ped (I used my loot optimization systems vigorously = consistent returns with 85-90% of tt back = no hofs) ). Just recently, I started to intentionally lose peds like crazy, and got 5 500+ped hofs in as many days testing this (intentionally lose a lot of peds, use system to force out a hof, rinse and repeat, and still about 90% tt back).

Now, this does not mean that MA doesn't release some bonus loots from the % they take and auction fees and whatnot, but I've never been lucky enough to get one of those. Does more efficient guns like imk2 or HA matter then? I suspect they still do, and affects what % of tt spent you get back. I don't think ever gets as low as 75% for 0HA however, nor over 100% for imk2s, hence ubers whining now and then.

That been said, I've never gotten an imk2 to test return %s with my systems nor had enough guts to blow 100kped ammo with a 2HA weapon, so I'm not as certain as I'd like to be, which is good. The day I know everything is the day I sell out due to sheer boredom.

Cheers, and flame away ^^

 

[Snuggins]

Arrrg, it's taking a lot of time to load the pages :/

If you mean using non-maxed weapons or efficient weapons, I'm about 80% sure of my following answer of yes and no

-------

In the old days (up to a year ago, when pham started whining), no. HA and efficiency of the weapon determined everything so you could get 120% of tt spent back on nearly every run with the right weapons/skills AND STILL have globals and hofs as bonuses. My guess is that the cash came from the poor folks who uses uneconomical weapons, or MA didn't do their multi-variable calculus right when doing the loot formulas

My guess as to why this changed is that the previous system was basically a pyramid scheme, with the older more experienced players steadily sucking away the money of newcomers. The problem is of course that they withdrew their enormous profits and that newcomers became disgusted and left.


Now, nearly everything is avatar based when it comes to loot size. The more you lose, the bigger you hof, and vice versa. I first tested this for a year and made a turnover of 100,000 peds with no globals over 200ped (I used my loot optimization systems vigorously = consistent returns with 85-90% of tt back = no hofs) ). Just recently, I started to intentionally lose peds like crazy, and got 5 500+ped hofs in as many days testing this (intentionally lose a lot of peds, use system to force out a hof, rinse and repeat, and still about 90% tt back).

Now, this does not mean that MA doesn't release some bonus loots from the % they take and auction fees and whatnot, but I've never been lucky enough to get one of those. Does more efficient guns like imk2 or HA matter then? I suspect they still do, and affects what % of tt spent you get back. I don't think ever gets as low as 75% for 0HA however, nor over 100% for imk2s, hence ubers whining now and then.

That been said, I've never gotten an imk2 to test return %s with my systems nor had enough guts to blow 100kped ammo with a 2HA weapon, so I'm not as certain as I'd like to be, which is good. The day I know everything is the day I sell out due to sheer boredom.

Cheers, and flame away ^^

I think you are quite right about it all works, but I don't think it actually changed. I believe it was always the same calculation as today. What changed is that the "ubers" sucked up all the venture capital that was initially in the system in excess of actual deposits. That money has all been withdrawn by now, so we start to deal with a system where 120% tt all the time just isn't possible. Now if you want to profit you need to loot high markup items and sell them (imo of course, I have no data to back up my theory).

 

[pavlik]

My guess as to why this changed is that the previous system was basically a pyramid scheme, with the older more experienced players steadily sucking away the money of newcomers. The problem is of course that they withdrew their enormous profits and that newcomers left.

I don't play so long so I don't know if it's true that loot used to be higher, so I assume you are right. My guess is that the poeple who could not play economically either learned how to play or became disgusted and left. (and the system never changed)

 

[Karmic]

My ass!

2 ATH in one day, No Skill, High Depositor.. == ATH + ATH + ATH.

That would be, in fact, exactly the opposite of how a casino works.

 

[Jimmy B]

And you will get twice as much skill from the exercise in the 4000 PED case.

That is how I understand it. Your total skill is a measure of your total losses due to MA's cut of decay, if I am on the right track with my theory.

Kinda, um, makes weapon economy totally irrelevant no?

In the old days (up to a year ago, when pham started whining), no. HA and efficiency of the weapon determined everything so you could get 120% of tt spent back on nearly every run with the right weapons/skills AND STILL have globals and hofs as bonuses. My guess is that the cash came from the poor folks who uses uneconomical weapons, or MA didn't do their multi-variable calculus right when doing the loot formulas

My guess as to why this changed is that the previous system was basically a pyramid scheme, with the older more experienced players steadily sucking away the money of newcomers. The problem is of course that they withdrew their enormous profits and that newcomers became disgusted and left.


Now, nearly everything is avatar based when it comes to loot size. The more you lose, the bigger you hof, and vice versa. I first tested this for a year and made a turnover of 100,000 peds with no globals over 200ped (I used my loot optimization systems vigorously = consistent returns with 85-90% of tt back = no hofs) ). Just recently, I started to intentionally lose peds like crazy, and got 5 500+ped hofs in as many days testing this (intentionally lose a lot of peds, use system to force out a hof, rinse and repeat, and still about 90% tt back).

Now, this does not mean that MA doesn't release some bonus loots from the % they take and auction fees and whatnot, but I've never been lucky enough to get one of those. Does more efficient guns like imk2 or HA matter then? I suspect they still do, and affects what % of tt spent you get back. I don't think ever gets as low as 75% for 0HA however, nor over 100% for imk2s, hence ubers whining now and then.

That been said, I've never gotten an imk2 to test return %s with my systems nor had enough guts to blow 100kped ammo with a 2HA weapon, so I'm not as certain as I'd like to be, which is good. The day I know everything is the day I sell out due to sheer boredom.

Cheers, and flame away ^^

Interesting stuff. I agree on some as plausible and disagree on some. Some comments and observations of my own:

- system change. Sounds plausible, although I don't fully agree on the pyramid scheme bit. I was making a nice noob tt profit pounding gradivores with Opalo. Not sure how much, as I tended to count markup of stuff like the vigi they dropped as well, but pretty sure it was tt profit as most hunts were tt up and the downs weren't huge. Would kinda fit in with the Pham stuff too. My guess is if there was a change it was because the old system counted as 'gambling' where as the new system doesn't.

- After amp nerf I spent a month or two shooting with a Mk II at somewhere between 3 and 4 HA I think. Losses were the worst I've ever experienced (before or since). However, shortly after a Christmas break I switched to Korss and got a 2.4k Trooper almost straight away covering most of the losses, which could be relevant.

- Since then I'm mainly using SIB L weps of some sort. Nothing over 400 PED tt for a year, even hunting some pretty big stuff (formicacida, itumatrox, aurli, kreltin, cersumon, formidon, big trox etc). Slight losses, probably explainable by being a bit careless with markup on bigger L guns.

- Been concentrating a bit more on economy in January. Got my first hof for a while - 850 PED on a Mermoth. I had that down as any of (i) luck, (ii) a result of some sort of reward for extra economy, (iii) the fact I spent quite a lot of time on a mob which drops a lot of markup but seemed to generally have bad tt loot so might have been a rebalancing of tt or something. Just occurred to me that it might have been something else entirely. Around Christmas I literally sold almost everything I own that was non-essential hunting gear. Had auction full of items for two weeks, probably sold something like 300 things, including five pieces of Jaguar. So could well have mounted up around 800 PED in auction fees (the Jag alone was over 400 PED).

- interesting about how economy would fit into that. Firstly I guess the extra loot from inefficiency is probably less good item-wise and is maybe mainly oils and residue rather than stuff with decent %. Secondly maybe economy some how influences your chances of getting decent items. But ultimately if its correct I kinda wonder whether the whole "let's use H400 coz its dmg/pec (actual) is over 3.0 even after markup" thinking is right. Say you get 90% of tt back doing that, and 90% of tt if you use a non-L gun with actual dmg/pec at 2.6. Would seem paying the markup for the H400 is just wasting PED (even if you loot em yourself, better to sell it).

That would be, in fact, exactly the opposite of how a casino works.

very true

 

[ELVENSON]

My ass!

2 ATH in one day, No Skill, High Depositor.. == ATH + ATH + ATH.



Where is the dynamics in that...

Whats the point in skilling..

Whats the point in trying..

If you dont deposit 10KUS$ per week, forget about getting any return.

Yes I whine and bitch and moan.
Bite ME!

sorry cant be bothered to read the whole threads, but correct me if im wrong:
what ur saying is that u NEED to deposit loads of money to ATH? and get good loot, and if u dont depo u loose out? and that is a casino? some of the ppl in the casino who loose the most are the ones who put in the most... kinda contradiction here ?

skills dont matter..lol plz, no they dont guarantee profit, but combined with good knowledge of EU, skills do matter. IMHO

 

[Huskie]

When something is judged as gambling or not, it's the way it is seen that
decide it. So if MA can show the authority the mechanism behind EU, and
it is obvious it isn't gambling, it can still be judged as gambling.
It's from a user point of view it's judged, sort of.
If it were judged as gambling, MA would be forced to give away info about
mechanism publicly, to not be judged as gambling in future.

And how would one know that the information provided is legit? Could be that even the info they showed those governments might not have been. And no, I'm not accusing MA of anything, just that people shouldn't always take other's word for a fact (especially that of millionaire business corporations), the real world is even more of a dog-eat-dog place than EU.

By the way, I also don't consider EU to be pure gambling. One can play it in a gambling fashion, but there are other ways to handle EU.

And a question to Nightbird: How does your theory explain people who managed to play for over a year without ever depositing or frequently doing activities such as sweating to support themselves?

 

[The Nightbird]

Kinda, um, makes weapon economy totally irrelevant no?



Interesting stuff. I agree on some as plausible and disagree on some. Some comments and observations of my own:

- system change. Sounds plausible, although I don't fully agree on the pyramid scheme bit. I was making a nice noob tt profit pounding gradivores with Opalo. Not sure how much, as I tended to count markup of stuff like the vigi they dropped as well, but pretty sure it was tt profit as most hunts were tt up and the downs weren't huge. Would kinda fit in with the Pham stuff too. My guess is if there was a change it was because the old system counted as 'gambling' where as the new system doesn't.

Didn't want to quote the whole thing, but the opalo before amp-nerf is not an outlier - it had 4.4raw eco with a big amp, easily 10% more than everything else non-uber. I profited about 20k with opalo before the nerf.

I also said that weapon eco probably has an effect, and 90% is simply the result I had with my setup.

Amp nerf is also around where I place the system change, that or the hof VU. Really don't remember. Might be 2 years ago then?

So, no disagreements seen

 

[Frigid]

EU really isn't anything like a casino.

Jimmy..no! Not you too! We just went through this. It's not like a casino, it's like an Indian Casino.

One last time...

Indian Casino's in California are not able to be the "bank". They are simply a place where players can play many differnet games of chance and they simply pay the casino a fee known as a "collection"(just like our decay) for every hand/game/draw/spin/pull/roll on the games in the casino. In many games, a small portion of the collection goes into special jackpots (uber-hofs/aths) that people can win with special combainations, like if someone has a full house will 3 aces and gets beat by a better hand. These jackpots, over time, can get quite high. People win money, people lose money...but the hosue never "wins" or "loses" money....they just get a constant income from the fees people pay on each hand. All the money people win is from other players, unless the casino is having a special event. The casino offers a wide array of shops, enetratinment, food, and drinking that can all be enjoyed without partaking in any of the games of chance.

Not every person who comes into the casino is guaranteed to leave with as much as they came in with.

Winning can coem in many form: chips, coins, or items like cars and jetskis.

People can win a jackpost their first night coming.

People have played for many, many years and never won anything more than a big hand.

While many of the games involve a small amount of skill which can help players in betting, estimating odds, and reading other players, they are still based upon chance.

The players who play at the higher-limit tables, tend to win more...and lose more...but they also tend to be richer.


How is this really not like PE? All of the earmarks and conventions of gambling and casinos are in PE. The games are different, but the end result is the same.

Carnival gam,es have many aspects of gambling, but I can't have the carny at the ring-toss booth transfer the value of my giant stuffed bear in real money to my real life bank account.

Even oranges and apples are both edible, seed-bearing fruits, and they *can* be compared on many aspects.

It is gambling. Gambling happens in casinos. It's a casino.

 

[RickNinjaHunter]

Ok. I have read every single thread in here. I agree with some, and others totally confuse me.

I admit now that I do not really understand how this universe works. So if there is someone who would like to teach me a few things, I am all ears, eyes, hands and feet.

I guess out of sheer frustration, I came in here and posted all the wrong things.

My thread should have read : "Noob in dire straights, any help is welcome"

I am eager to be a master craftsmen in weapons, as some of the great weapon crafters out there , Photonic and Snake just to mention two.

I am also eager to be an excellent hunter, Gravedigger, Exo Knight, Stormer just to mention three.

I am also eager to be an admirable mentor, Alice in WonderLand just to mention the greatest.

But most of all I am eager to learn, however I find that not many people are willing to teach what they know, and/or lack the time and patience.

So, with such a deep well of knowledge out there, who is willing to share just one cup full with me.

Ninja

<flame away>

 

[Snuggins]

Kinda, um, makes weapon economy totally irrelevant no?

Yes and no. The way I figure it, eco doesn't matter in the long term at all. In the short term, it is everything. So a good strategy I would suggest is that you play as un-eco as you can afford, and do things you like to skill in until your bankroll becomes tight (now your loot is primed). Then get your best eco set-up and go hunt (or craft or mine) what mobs (areas or bps) that are appropriate to your gear and that drops the loot you want (with high mark-ups). If you judge your cycle right you can hit your global or hof (if you really dumped the peds out ) on a nice item or resource with good mark-up. That is optimum EU strategy to me.

 

[Jimmy B]

Didn't want to quote the whole thing, but the opalo before amp-nerf is not an outlier - it had 4.4raw eco with a big amp, easily 10% more than everything else non-uber. I profited about 20k with opalo before the nerf.

I also said that weapon eco probably has an effect, and 90% is simply the result I had with my setup.

Amp nerf is also around where I place the system change, that or the hof VU. Really don't remember. Might be 2 years ago then?

So, no disagreements seen

Yeah I was just disagreeing with the pyramid scheme bit. But when I joined Opalo was already there so I can't really comment on what the chances were for noobs before that.

And no, less than two years ago. Pham was getting two ATHs a day 2 years ago. Amp nerf was about 15 months ago. Could have been around then. Could plausibly be that amp nerf and system change occurred at the same time (Marco: "What are we going to do when all those guys using Opalo+106 see a sudden consistent drop in their loot?", Jan: "Let's nerf amps so they start using Korss instead, then they'll think its that.", Marco: "What about Pham?", Jan: "He's got enough out of us already!").

Jimmy..no! Not you too! We just went through this. It's not like a casino, it's like an Indian Casino.

One last time...

Indian Casino's in California are not able to be the "bank". They are simply a place where players can play many differnet games of chance and they simply pay the casino a fee known as a "collection"(just like our decay) for every hand/game/draw/spin/pull/roll on the games in the casino. In many games, a small portion of the collection goes into special jackpots (uber-hofs/aths) that people can win with special combainations, like if someone has a full house will 3 aces and gets beat by a better hand. These jackpots, over time, can get quite high. People win money, people lose money...but the hosue never "wins" or "loses" money....they just get a constant income from the fees people pay on each hand. All the money people win is from other players, unless the casino is having a special event. The casino offers a wide array of shops, enetratinment, food, and drinking that can all be enjoyed without partaking in any of the games of chance.

Not every person who comes into the casino is guaranteed to leave with as much as they came in with.

Winning can coem in many form: chips, coins, or items like cars and jetskis.

People can win a jackpost their first night coming.

People have played for many, many years and never won anything more than a big hand.

While many of the games involve a small amount of skill which can help players in betting, estimating odds, and reading other players, they are still based upon chance.

The players who play at the higher-limit tables, tend to win more...and lose more...but they also tend to be richer.


How is this really not like PE? All of the earmarks and conventions of gambling and casinos are in PE. The games are different, but the end result is the same.

Carnival gam,es have many aspects of gambling, but I can't have the carny at the ring-toss booth transfer the value of my giant stuffed bear in real money to my real life bank account.

Even oranges and apples are both edible, seed-bearing fruits, and they *can* be compared on many aspects.

It is gambling. Gambling happens in casinos. It's a casino.

Yeah that's how I used to think it worked by and large. However, I'm not so convinced anymore. I think there may be a standard fixed return as being discussed here where perceived luck is only temporary as is righted by the system at some point. Some of Nightbird's and my own experiences provide sufficient evidence for me to contemplate that as a possibility. I like more the 'fixed return based on economy theory' along the same lines but with return determined by your difference with the average efficiency minus a fee (as discussed by me & Blackhawk in the other thread). Then I'd have to explain Nightbird's loss Hofs by some sort of preset minimum return. Both seem possible, not totally sure where the really big hofs fit in though. As does the skill-based, efficiency based random system (where its deemed not gambling legally due to the fact you can influence your odds). The latter is how I assumed it to work in the past, and how I'd kinda like it to work, but I've seen enough well-thought out ideas and posts with enough evidence to make it plausible either of the other two are possible as well.

So I'm not claiming to know how it works, I'm just throwing around all the ideas I consider plausible.

I guess out of sheer frustration, I came in here and posted all the wrong things.

My thread should have read : "Noob in dire straights, any help is welcome"

I am eager to be a master craftsmen in weapons, as some of the great weapon crafters out there , Photonic and Snake just to mention two.

I am also eager to be an excellent hunter, Gravedigger, Exo Knight, Stormer just to mention three.

OK mate. I'm guessing a little at your situation. What I think would be best is:

Hunting: You've probably not got a huge bankroll so you don't want huge ups and downs. Get a maxed out L gun (ie. you have HA=10, and min damage is 50% of max damage on it). Stick an A10x series amp on it if you have one. If you can use H400 or P5a they're good options. If not, use one of the lower Breer or Riker series. This way you're being economical, which at the very least will minimise your volatility. Experiment with mobs you can hunt fairly comfortably and find one that drops a decent amount of markup in its loot (check market % on everything you loot).

Crafting: Start slow. Do low-level components and the like. The problem with crafting is you must pay quite a bit of markup for the ingredients. The system will never give you that back (you pay other players the markup, not MA). So you need to either craft things that cost very low markup to make, or craft things that other crafters/hunters/miners will buy from you for markup to cover the markup on the ingredients. So check blueprints for ingredients carefully, and check the product for market value. If crafting components, always craft on quantity not condition. If crafting sellable L items, use residue and craft on quantity. (I'm pretty nooby crafting myself, but that's basically what I do)

Yes and no. The way I figure it, eco doesn't matter in the long term at all. In the short term, it is everything. So a good strategy I would suggest is that you play as un-eco as you can afford, and do things you like to skill in until your bankroll becomes tight (now your loot is primed). Then get your best eco set-up and go hunt (or craft or mine) what mobs (areas or bps) that are appropriate to your gear and that drops the loot you want (with high mark-ups). If you judge your cycle right you can hit your global or hof (if you really dumped the peds out ) on a nice item or resource with good mark-up. That is optimum EU strategy to me.

See now, that sounds crazy. But well, you never know.

 

[Pham]

In the old days (up to a year ago, when pham started whining), no. HA and efficiency of the weapon determined everything so you could get 120% of tt spent back on nearly every run with the right weapons/skills AND STILL have globals and hofs as bonuses. My guess is that the cash came from the poor folks who uses uneconomical weapons, or MA didn't do their multi-variable calculus right when doing the loot formulas

Nonsense. I bought that imp mk2 like in 2005-05 and all i had return-wise was my TT returns rising from 75% to 85%. It had been like that for an year.
I had the 120%ish returns only hoffing or globalling every 30k ammo spent or so. Without the globals imp mk2 just gave me about as much as i said. The skills value i just dont take into considerations, since my primary interest is mostly in how much MA takes as a rake.
At that time i managed to have profits like 30k ped/month but only from selling stuff with ridiculously high markup like alien blood which was 2500% or aurli bones @180 ped/piece. And also guessing good looting and uber-hof timing very good. I have never ever relied upon TT returns as source of income which will make me breaking even or profiting.
"Profiting with imp mk2 because of its high eco" always was an urban legend for me, even though i left hunting alone having 127 rank laser sniper. (and even then i missed 30% of my shots... just because i got crap network conditions here).
The cycles in the loots, the sequence in which mobs drop uberhofs are damn predictable if you record things down and analyze later. Its random in a certain interval, but you can guess when/where you can get better probability of certain outcome.
More randomness comes with distributuion of the loot at given place&time between the avatars.
If it could have been any interaction between that and *any* avatar attribute that would have made worst unfair rigged game in my eyes.
Which i believe is happening.
And in regards of swedish court conclusion regarding the status of EU being gambling or not, i wonder how they can be sure that the developers didnt change or won't change anything in any moment after showing them things ?
The initial conclusion must have been made in 2003 or so, but then PE was completely different game, and the loots change almost every VU regardles what the support say, especially since that time.
MA what, submits the code for the expertise every mini-update or something like that ? hahaha

 

[Jimmy B]

Thanks for your thoughts Pham.

One point though, if you're not exaggerating with your miss rate, then your economy wasn't so good even with imk2...

 

[The Nightbird]

You might be right pham, that it was 120% tt returns with globals included. It's been too long and my memory is faded either way, it is impossible now even with imk2 to average that high.

As for misses, it doesn't hurt your economy.

Scenario 1: You fire, the packet is lost, then server doesn't know you shot so no decay or ammo lost.

Scenario 2: you fire, server calculates hit and damage, but result packet is lost instead, but doesn't matter since mob hp is tracked server side.

Because everything is tracked server side, you either fire at the target or not at all, and packet loss can create a lot of false shots were you think you missed but it never took place. Had the problem myself with a failing router.

 

[ruskea]

And then what? Well anyway someone has found out how the system works

But in one way EU is a casino, you never know "number" is the winning number.

or someone is in the MAs "chosen ones" list this game is far from casino.. this game is far from luck..

iin casino even i have a chance to win.. in this game... no chance

casino is all skills and luck... and hmm this game is all about are u in the chosen ones.. or not

 

[thoreau]

Jan: "He's got enough out of us already!"

Jimmy, I'm guessing you've read the book Bringing Down the House.

I read the book a few years ago and it's being made into a movie starring Kevin Spacey.

The focus of the book is on how a group of MIT students defeat the casinos by playing the odds in blackjack. It is also an interesting read on group dynamics.

In the past I thought PE was like a slot machine. Looting each mob was like pulling the arm on slot.

But the more I played PE I thought more and more about a poker metaphor. With the game being basically a redistribution of wealth with the casino taking a rake for their trouble. In PE, decay equals the rake.

But your statement above has me thinking. Maybe PE is like a giant blackjack game with each individual playing against the house. Perhaps the loot pool (pot in a poker game) doesn't exist. Perhaps our deposits go into the house's account and MA sets up the game so we win a bit but over time we lose more than we win.

Maybe I should be worrying less about 'playing tight' and worrying more about whether the server is hot.

 

[ruskea]

Nonsense. I bought that imp mk2 like in 2005-05 and all i had return-wise was my TT returns rising from 75% to 85%. It had been like that for an year.
I had the 120%ish returns only hoffing or globalling every 30k ammo spent or so. Without the globals imp mk2 just gave me about as much as i said. The skills value i just dont take into considerations, since my primary interest is mostly in how much MA takes as a rake.
At that time i managed to have profits like 30k ped/month but only from selling stuff with ridiculously high markup like alien blood which was 2500% or aurli bones @180 ped/piece. And also guessing good looting and uber-hof timing very good. I have never ever relied upon TT returns as source of income which will make me breaking even or profiting.
"Profiting with imp mk2 because of its high eco" always was an urban legend for me, even though i left hunting alone having 127 rank laser sniper. (and even then i missed 30% of my shots... just because i got crap network conditions here).
The cycles in the loots, the sequence in which mobs drop uberhofs are damn predictable if you record things down and analyze later. Its random in a certain interval, but you can guess when/where you can get better probability of certain outcome.
More randomness comes with distributuion of the loot at given place&time between the avatars.
If it could have been any interaction between that and *any* avatar attribute that would have made worst unfair rigged game in my eyes.
Which i believe is happening.
And in regards of swedish court conclusion regarding the status of EU being gambling or not, i wonder how they can be sure that the developers didnt change or won't change anything in any moment after showing them things ?
The initial conclusion must have been made in 2003 or so, but then PE was completely different game, and the loots change almost every VU regardles what the support say, especially since that time.
MA what, submits the code for the expertise every mini-update or something like that ? hahaha

aint u the only one who has managed to reach uber lvls without depositing? sounds bullshit to me that u talk about how something has effects on loot gain.. ur a chosen one thats all.. if ud only kill snables for a year with imk2 u would still make profit

 

[Pham]

As for misses, it doesn't hurt your economy.

Scenario 1: You fire, the packet is lost, then server doesn't know you shot so no decay or ammo lost.

Scenario 2: you fire, server calculates hit and damage, but result packet is lost instead, but doesn't matter since mob hp is tracked server side.

I watched upon the ammo counter every time i missed excessively and did not notice that the client returns the lost ammo or did not decrement the counter.
Lost ammo returns (after relog) happened to me on 2 or 3 occasions after MA had stacks splitting bugs after some VUs and it was the only case.

 

[Jimmy B]

aint u the only one who has managed to reach uber lvls without depositing?

No (eg. Da). And Pham did deposit a little.

sounds bullshit to me that u talk about how something has effects on loot gain.. ur a chosen one thats all..

So chosen that he's now pretty much sold out.

if ud only kill snables for a year with imk2 u would still make profit

No you wouldn't.

Jimmy, I'm guessing you've read the book Bringing Down the House.

I read the book a few years ago and it's being made into a movie starring Kevin Spacey.

The focus of the book is on how a group of MIT students defeat the casinos by playing the odds in blackjack. It is also an interesting read on group dynamics.

In the past I thought PE was like a slot machine. Looting each mob was like pulling the arm on slot.

But the more I played PE I thought more and more about a poker metaphor. With the game being basically a redistribution of wealth with the casino taking a rake for their trouble. In PE, decay equals the rake.

But your statement above has me thinking. Maybe PE is like a giant blackjack game with each individual playing against the house. Perhaps the loot pool (pot in a poker game) doesn't exist. Perhaps our deposits go into the house's account and MA sets up the game so we win a bit but over time we lose more than we win.

Maybe I should be worrying less about 'playing tight' and worrying more about whether the server is hot.

Not read the book, but I've heard the tales...

And yeah, I used to think of it like rake in a poker game too, but I'm less convinced of that whole thing now as discussed above.

I watched upon the ammo counter every time i missed excessively and did not notice that the client returns the lost ammo or did not decrement the counter.
Lost ammo returns (after relog) happened to me on 2 or 3 occasions after MA had stacks splitting bugs after some VUs and it was the only case.

Yeah, I've noticed returned ammo whilst missing excessive shots in the past but far from all the time.

 

[Joat]

Theres one saying: Learn to play, and MA will pay

There are 3 basic types of people in this game:
1). The ones making money + they are probably having fun since they make profit
2).The ones that play and keep an even amount of peds without loosing, gaining skills and thats = still profit
3).And the ones that just dont have the right weapon, right place, and dont know much about the game

I found my combo and I'm doing well...

But I'm not the one to talk about this... im really a noob, only unlocked mms, but I read SOOOOOOO many threads/posts on EF trying to figure out a way to play without a major deposit and I must say I finally am breaking even almost all the time. Sometimes I'm up, and sometimes down... but thats how it is in EU.

EU is not a casino if you have enough knowladge

I wish ya good luck

TJ

I think you missed one group, the nr4:
They play EU as entertainment, not trying to get rich and don't mind spending
and lose some amount of ped, what they do mind is that they don't like to
lose peds too fast! They get profit IRL, and try to get some entertainment
when not working, by playing EU...

 

[Snuggins]

But your statement above has me thinking. Maybe PE is like a giant blackjack game with each individual playing against the house. Perhaps the loot pool (pot in a poker game) doesn't exist. Perhaps our deposits go into the house's account and MA sets up the game so we win a bit but over time we lose more than we win.

Maybe I should be worrying less about 'playing tight' and worrying more about whether the server is hot.

I guess my longevity marker isn't long enough be taken seriously around here (even if it's longer than Lavawalkers), but this is exactly what I have been saying.

Everybody is only playing against MA only and the fee they charge is staticly calculated from your decay/skilling. The only way your funds interact with someone elses are through trade (auction etc.).

I am glad to see some of these ideas being taken more seriously though. I think EU is matured enough now that it will survive even if people don't think they are playing a slot machine in which there personal eco (or luck) will allow them to beat the averages and take home more cake than they paid for.

 

[Frigid]

But your statement above has me thinking. Maybe PE is like a giant blackjack game with each individual playing against the house. Perhaps the loot pool (pot in a poker game) doesn't exist. Perhaps our deposits go into the house's account and MA sets up the game so we win a bit but over time we lose more than we win.

That is an interesting take, and might go towards explaining how people who grind one mob seem to get good returns. If this was true, hunting mobs with items that have a good markup is your best bet. You just need *churn*..overturn, doesn't have to come from deposits, but it should still go through your avatar. it iss safe to say that people do not often get rich on the TT of their loot retruns, but the markup, *just* like pham said with the blood and bones....and many other older players have had the benefit of storing equipment that used to be TT-fodder, but blossomed into gold.

It is possible that HOF's and ATH's come from a special jackpot pool which can exceed your own "personal pool". The anaology of this is back to the slot-machine, but a slot machine that only YOU pay into, and when you are really lucky, you can get an extra bonus that the company hands down to you. they only get decay as you churn/overturn, and you are constantly trying to get your own money backs. the Ubers who invest lots and have lots of overturn get big hofs and big retruns...as do the players that play alot.

Damn...this has created a huge, palpable, grey-cloud of thought in my head which I feel and epiphany forming behind.

This "personal-churn" pool *would* make them free of gambling restictions. There is nothing "gambly" about avatars selling items for markup between themselves. You feel like to are competing because people are around you...fighting for the same mobs, crafting the same units, but in the end, we are all only just fighting to get our OWN money back, and when we get lucky we get special prizes.

Interesting...interesting...this would still fit the realities of PE, given that skills are gains as well, and that a "loser" is just a person who is either hunting very un-eco, with high decay vs return, or has not yet been able to win-back their invested assets.

Thank you all for rocking my world, this friday morning, before the WOF . This is going to take some thought....

 

[Ironheart]

My ass!

2 ATH in one day, No Skill, High Depositor.. == ATH + ATH + ATH.



Where is the dynamics in that...

Whats the point in skilling..

Whats the point in trying..

If you dont deposit 10KUS$ per week, forget about getting any return.

First, you postulate EU is a casino, next you state hard and fast rules that can 'guarantee' you returns.

(Both assumptions are wrong, of course )

Yes I whine and bitch and moan.
Bite ME!

Is it OK if I just pity you instead ?

 

[Shadowmage]

Thorugh my father is working at the court I took a chance last weak visiting it (also know loads of people there) and also asked in a little conversation about the concept of Entropia Universe.

The result of it finally was that the game in our country, as it is, is concretely seen as GAMBLING, just becasue there are too much factors for it. I'm sure that, if I really see no point in going on by any time, can get my "invested" money back through the EULA doesn't cover this point either as MA say themselves that it definitely is no gambling, but if it get declared as gamble by the court, it is so and MA hit the law. I don't know how it is in sweden, but if MA also offers the game in german / french / spanish / italian... and also don't give us any idea of restrictions they clearly hit the law of the country (they are not in).

It's the same as when I buy music on a russian site for $0.01 / track, you really can relate the situations, but in the one case it's the company hitting the law, in second it's me.

Just my 2 pec about the theme of gambling.

Edit: Gambling isn't declared with "casino" or something, to exactly find a declaration please visit wikipedia or so. Gambling is a wide phrase and can be used for lots of things, but in any case, it must be declared as it by the company if it is. (sry for my bad english, still improving... )

 

[Huskie]

I still can't see that theory of a fixed long-term return explaining non-depositers who don't need to rely on free activities to support themselves. There's hardly any high-markup items a starting avatar has access to, to be able to keep going at a steady 90% return (or whatever the true percentage would be).

 

[Ironheart]

I guess my longevity marker isn't long enough be taken seriously around here (even if it's longer than Lavawalkers), but this is exactly what I have been saying.

Everybody is only playing against MA only and the fee they charge is staticly calculated from your decay/skilling. The only way your funds interact with someone elses are through trade (auction etc.).

I am glad to see some of these ideas being taken more seriously though. I think EU is matured enough now that it will survive even if people don't think they are playing a slot machine in which there personal eco (or luck) will allow them to beat the averages and take home more cake than they paid for.

But there are many people who done exactly that 'taken home more cake than they have paid for', the fixed return % theory has no explanation for this, unless I misunderstand you?

 

[Jimmy B]

I still can't see that theory of a fixed long-term return explaining non-depositers who don't need to rely on free activities to support themselves. There's hardly any high-markup items a starting avatar has access to, to be able to keep going at a steady 90% return (or whatever the true percentage would be).

Sweat. And there are small mobs that drop a fair bit of markup. Mining too.

But there are many people who done exactly that 'taken home more cake than they have paid for', the fixed return % theory has no explanation for this, unless I misunderstand you?

markup.

Also Nightbird and I are suggesting the system may have changed around the time of the amp nerf, possibly as a result of gambling laws.