Some simple thoughts about EU

[remontoire]

I would also add to this category the casual players, who mostly chat or do some profession from time to time but at a low level(by level I mean ped cycled)

How much peds cycled is that?

 

[Xavier_Jr]

indeed, but on the other site you'll have many that don't spend.

Btw, 36k active users per month would turn into about 1500 active users per hour. A figure that looks familiar.

Your assumption about 36k active users, probably having a big error. You should do a study as how is the turnover per day of everyone of the Top 100 players, in each of the three main professions.

Personally, I have friends ranked from 20 to 30 in list of hunting. And them recycled 4k to 5k per day peds (equivalent from 20 to 25 ideal "active players").

Imagine the amount of peds recycled per day, in crafting lists.

But is not only that, ranked between 101 to 500, from all list, probably is covering 4 or 5 times ideal "active players" too.

And probably ranked between 500 to 1000 fron three professions is covering 2 times ideal "active players"

Really I think the people consigned in ET could be the 20% of all people in the game, and the 100% coud be 15k persons... (an estimation using the Pareto principle, and not surveys) -- and not 36k

We must estimate if the people hidden for ET, maybe 12k persons, is turnover ??? peds per day. (Because they do not appear in tracker, they probably recycle 50 peds per day or less)

However, the other information of your thread is at least worrisome

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

Those qualify in noob section.

Playing in EU either means cycling a lot of ped in one or several professions or cruising around, chatting and doing some activity from time to time, usually on a low level.

Yes you're right, how could I forget about them

I would also add to this category the casual players, who mostly chat or do some profession from time to time but at a low level(by level I mean ped cycled)

How about people who cycle a lot of PED to play at a medium level, have fairly high skills but do not deposit much?

 

[falkao]

Your assumption about 36k active users, probably having a big error. You should do a study as how is the turnover per day of everyone of the Top 100 players, in each of the three main professions.
...

well it might be indeed be relevant to know how imbalanced user spending's are.

Imagine what happens, when the targeted number of 36k users cycling 200 PED per hour is in reality composed by 6k users spending quite more (say 1kPED) and the rest quite less (30k spending only 40 PED)?

 

[falkao]

How about people who cycle a lot of PED to play at a medium level, have fairly high skills but do not deposit much?

all depends on how much PED they do cycle. If it's reasonably large, then they have to deposit sooner or later.

 

[Leona]

all depends on how much PED they do cycle. If it's reasonably large, then they have to deposit sooner or later.

You are talking only statistically i guess? Cause i know quite some who have a nice turnover and don't need to depo, including myself.

 

[Xavier_Jr]

You are talking only statistically i guess? Cause i know quite some who have a nice turnover and don't need to depo, including myself.

GDP is not necessarily money that should be spent. Just to need stay there. Maybe, you are only collaborating to the GDP. But believe me, GDP may be a reserve, if some time the system need your money, maybe you will need to deposit again. Falkao is ok (sooner or later), all depends about the general economy.

 

[TACUTTING]

You are talking only statistically i guess? Cause i know quite some who have a nice turnover and don't need to depo, including myself.

you mean you dont need to Depo or maybe do you mean you get the ped card filled by other players.
By selling the Loot by + MU ?

Wich Btw is the same thing as both ways fill the pedcard from an external source . (Sorry if my english isnt correct )

Sorry if this is offtopic

this is no offensive post, just a thought about the ped turnover in game

 

[Leona]

GDP is not necessarily money that should be spent. Just to need stay there. Maybe, you are only collaborating to the GDP. But believe me, GDP may be a reserve, if some time the system need your money, maybe you will need to deposit again. Falkao is ok (sooner or later), all depends about the general economy.

The system is taking money from me all the time, but there is markup you know. You seem to assume that people who don't need to depo have an higher return rate.

Doesn't need a lot of fancy maths to see that the distribution who contributes to MindArk's income is very uneven. And it does for sure not depend on the players turnover. It is just so that some players pay for others playtime by markup.

 

[Leona]

you mean you dont need to Depo or maybe do you mean you get the ped card filled by other players.
By selling the Loot by + MU ?

The second one, yes. I have never seen any evidence that TT return rates are different for depositing and non depositing players. Actually, for all i have seen, they are the same.

Just did not like falkao's absolute statement but might have misunderstood.

 

[Xavier_Jr]

The system is taking money from me all the time, but there is markup you know. You seem to assume that people who don't need to depo have an higher return rate.

Doesn't need a lot of fancy maths to see that the distribution who contributes to MindArk's income is very uneven. And it does for sure not depend on the players turnover. It is just so that some players pay for others playtime by markup.

You are right. In fact, in RL the companies live in function to the MUs. However, money is always a reserve (for example, in war times, countries could change your money by war bonus). Similarly in EU, If some time the system needs your money, your return rate could be down and not be balanced with MUs of your loots. Everything works as a balance. If balance is broken, it must be compensated. And all have priorities. This talk could be open to other ideas, as for example new hipothesis as about players kind "piggy" money (obviously without know nothing about that), however, is not the matter of this thread.

But you are right. MU can sustain a player. But remember MU is sustain by a strong demand. If demand go down, then MU goes down.

 

[dogofwar]

The biggest difference between EU and a game...

In a game I survey an area to get the lowest price for an item...

In EU I survey players in an area to get the lowest price for an item and feel like they're all trying to backstab me and leave my dead body out back behind the shed where nobody will notice the stink and decay.

That's the biggest difference.

EU is not just a game.

In a game there's no conservation of energy. Everybody can win. There's no hard feelings. There're no constant comparisons. There're no raw deals that feel like somebody is tearing your heart from your chest.

Heaven is a place where everybody can win. But the problem is: it's a game, it's not real.

#############

In response to something I read here somewhere:

If people of high skills made more cash than lower skilled participants than this would just be a ponzi-scheme. The reason is that the high skilled are investors that're getting money from subsequent investors, not from any genuine service(s) performed. An operation of this sort requires more and more investors. In order to make it legal you would have to thoroughly show that gaining high skills equates to actual services and profits.

I did some research:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

So a company working with a ponzi-scheme makes less earnings than it pays off to its investors. That's the telltale sign of it. This means it's bound to fail and it's weaker than a genuine company during a recession. If investors withdraw during the recession than the whole system is much more likely to collapse than normal.

If you think about it, all this is saying is that the service or product being produced is mostly non-existent. Thus, the company must survive on the investors and manufacture the illusion of legality by employing complexity. In these cases they're usually praying on ignorance so complexity can be created at minimal cost.

This guy did a ponzi-scheme:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoff_investment_scandal

 

[falkao]

The system is taking money from me all the time, but there is markup you know. You seem to assume that people who don't need to depo have an higher return rate.

...
Just did not like falkao's absolute statement but might have misunderstood.

... MU can sustain a player. But remember MU is sustain by a strong demand. If demand go down, then MU goes down.

quite correct, MU will lengthen the period to next depo quite a lot. Those having this playing style will only depo when there is something they like to buy and they don’t want to change any item they do own in return.

Btw: Only about 105% MU is needed to break even in the long run.

 

[falkao]

T...If people of high skills made more cash than lower skilled participants than this would just be a ponzi-scheme.

unfortunately there is some sort of Ponzi, but not the way you do describe it. I'm quite sure that MA is aware about it, but were not able to resolve it so far. Let me explain.

When you start you do have nothing, so you are looking for items to have fun. You will most probably start depositing and after some time (years) you will have collected quite some TT in items. When you're still enjoying the game you will start cycling only that amount of TT that you can recover without depositing. So you're on the top of the Ponzi scheme. As a consequence always new players are needed.

Furthermore, as MU is involved we will have quite some inflation, so that finally new players can't effort items. This is when Ponzi collapses.

As mentioned before, MA started addressing it, but didn't resolve it so far. One move was the introduction of Limited items, another was reduction of TT on new items. What we will see next is some kind of constant decay related to playing time like nutrition/food or energy decay or maybe some sort of income taxation. This does not necessarily imply that playing will become more expensive. It might only imply a different balancing scheme.

We do have quite some old-timers over here. Some of them constantly requesting new features. What they are looking for is new fun. If MA starts realizing that new players are the key, then we will see an improved mentoring system with more community interaction. If the game is good, then they do not even need a marketing campaign.

Edit: removed (see facebook as this was more a joke and I don't like joking

 

[RexDameon]

i'm sorry but there is NOTHING that can be simple about Entropia. Unless your simple though is "The grass moves when i walk through it thats nice"

 

[dogofwar]

unfortunately there is some sort of Ponzi, but not the way you do describe it. I'm quite sure that MA is aware about it, but were not able to resolve it so far. Let me explain.

When you start you do have nothing, so you are looking for items to have fun. You will most probably start depositing and after some time (years) you will have collected quite some TT in items. When you're still enjoying the game you will start cycling only that amount of TT that you can recover without depositing. So you're on the top of the Ponzi scheme. As a consequence always new players are needed.

Furthermore, as MU is involved we will have quite some inflation, so that finally new players can't effort items. This is when Ponzi collapses.

As mentioned before, MA started addressing it, but didn't resolve it so far. One move was the introduction of Limited items. What we will see next is some kind of constant decay related to playing time like nutrition/food or energy decay or maybe some sort of income taxation. This does not necessarily imply that playing will become more expensive. It might only imply a different balancing scheme.

We do have quite some old-timers over here. Some of them constantly requesting new features. What they are looking for is new fun. If MA starts realizing that new players are the key, then we will see an improved mentoring system with more community interaction. If the game is good, then they do not even need a marketing campaign.

Edit: removed (see facebook as this was more a joke and I don't like joking

1) Players are not technically investors
2) MA is supplying a service - this game - so profits are generated

Players can't be considered investors. We're not employees, we're players.

Ponzi-schemes fake a service and coverup the inside information so one cannot separate the inputs and outputs. They make it hopelessly complex for investors and investigators so as to cover their trail.

Their whole intent is to profit while supplying a mostly non-existent product or service. So it's wrong for me to say it's a ponzi-scheme. That's because MA does supply a service to its players. Sorry to mislead you.

Can a ponzi-scheme exist within EU, though? That's more what I was trying to say. Can a casino exist inside EU? Can actual investors exist inside EU? What happens inside EU?

And are EU players more like gamblers than investors? Is stock trading a form of gambling?

What if MA sanctioned a ponzi-scheme inside the EU economy?

I'd like to see MA sanction more creative license to players. Allow them to create and change things. Second life does that and to great effect, so why can't MA. At least allow us to build houses where we want.

Why does MA attempt to control everything so much? To prevent monopoly? To hook people like casinos do? To enforce the game somehow? In Second life, you buy Linden at a certain rate and then you can purchase things that other players make. There're only a few things you can buy from the company itself, like processor or disk resources for your creations. Other than that, everything is driven by player markets.

How do you combine a game and Second Life? Is that what EU is trying to do?

... If so, then start giving the players more creative control. You would soon find that players don't just play to play your game, they play to experience the creations and works of others. Why can't the two co-exist?

It's not MA versus the players. Or it shouldn't be. It's MA AND the players.

 

[falkao]

i'm sorry but there is NOTHING that can be simple about Entropia. ...

Why not? Things one can understand are simple, before, they were always difficult.

Btw: TT on new items was also reduced recently.

 

[remontoire]

Btw: TT on new items was also reduced recently.

TT on new player items. And this came by in the form of FPC (and then SDS) saying more focus woul dbe on casual players and NI launching with a focus on casuals.

TT on Adjusted LR53, which is technically also a new item, was not lowered. If anything, comparing Adjusted / Modified LR32 and LR53, the TT was increased.

 

[sitram]

How about people who cycle a lot of PED to play at a medium level, have fairly high skills but do not deposit much?

Category: The ones who make money
Even if they don't make money in the true sens of words, they still develop their avatar for free which is some way of making money, considering returns are not 100%

Unless an avatar cycles over 25-30k ped a month I would qualify it in the noob section

 

[falkao]

We have a total of 15,909 user accounts over here with 82 new accounts from June 2011 till now and about 500 new accounts this year. Furthermore, there have been about 2,600 distinct user logins on this forum from June 2011 till July 2011 (16% of user accounts). For 2011 I'll get a total of about 3,800 (24% of user accounts) with about 200-400 user logins missing per month starting with May 2011. It looks like as per month there are about 200-400 users that will not login anymore. With about 80 new users per month it seems as active user base is shrinking.

Now this is PCF and not EU, there are other forums as well (EF with about 750 members, EP about 2050, Arkadia about 1300, NI about 1000 and several regional forums) and hence data might not be generalized.

Nevertheless, several questions do arise:

1) PCF has the most active users, so why is MA posting on EF with quite less members? Guess they have to rethink how to communicate.
2) If user base is shrinking over here, maybe 711 has more accurate data, is this also true for EU?
3) There have been about 500k registered users in EU back in 2006 and if I'm right the last data I've seen was about 850k. So only a fraction of them has an account on an EU related forum. This smells.
4) If my observations are correct, then a constant amount of quite some active EU users are needed to sustain the universe. Why do I have the impression that instead of raising it they do lower it?

 

[Seventy Was]

Nevertheless, several questions do arise:

1) PCF has the most active users, so why is MA posting on EF with quite less members? Guess they have to rethink how to communicate.
2) If user base is shrinking over here, maybe 711 has more accurate data, is this also true for EU?
3) There have been about 500k registered users in EU back in 2006 and if I'm right the last data I've seen was about 850k. So only a fraction of them has an account on an EU related forum. This smells.
4) If my observations are correct, then a constant amount of quite some active EU users are needed to sustain the universe. Why do I have the impression that instead of raising it they do lower it?

1. The game is spread over more than one planet. To give Official information just on PCF could be seen as being biased especially given the recent events concerning the ownership of Calypso. EF covers all, without any specific place being show a priority.
2. I suspect only 711 + those they have authorised/notified has access to that information for the forums. Then see answer for 4.
3. Many many players in MMO avoid the games' forums. Lots of players just don't do forums.
4. Only MA would have full access to the numbers. PP may know what they have managed to get assigned for their own returns. Anything else is probably speculation.

 

[falkao]

...

3. Many many players in MMO avoid the games' forums. Lots of players just don't do forums.
...

Not sure if this holds for EU as well. As there is an RCE you have to know what items are requested, get information about them and understand the market. So reading forums gives quite some insights and therefor I would have expected that quite some players are also forum members.

 

[remontoire]

Not sure if this holds for EU as well. As there is an RCE you have to know what items are requested, get information about them and understand the market. So reading forums gives quite some insights and therefor I would have expected that quite some players are also forum members.

A rather large segment of regular HOF-ers are not on here and / or only come here once they loot something they are better off selling via a sales thread than in game auction.

 

[Seventy Was]

In my answer to the third item I include the players that depo their $25 to $50, repair their GDC-97/Beast/Ghost/.5B or similar UL combo to go blast Argo/Atrox/Any FOTM mob. When done they TT their loot to recycle until PED is low and disappear until the next month.

I suspect there is a sizeable number like this that play the game with a subscription model Not using it as a RCE means fun at a cost they find affordable without the side effects of having to worry how efficient or how much profit/loss they make. Unlimited items of the sort I mentioned above plus the obligatory flying machine enable players to use the game on a fixed monthly budget. Limited items are seen as a major hinderance in that context as they need continual chunky up-front finance. These people are not interested in continually finding the best price for the next item, they just want to go shoot stuff. An initial purchase of the unlimited gear is the only major initial spend they do, from then on a comfortable monthly payment is all that's needed to go onwards. Forums/Politics/UBER/Economy and the such are very unlikely to figure as important.

Many games have their economic models, and many players also chose not to follow those models in ways that a lot of people would anticipate.

 

[falkao]

In my answer to the third item I include the players that depo their $25 to $50, repair their GDC-97/Beast/Ghost/.5B or similar UL combo to go blast Argo/Atrox/Any FOTM mob. When done they TT their loot to recycle until PED is low and disappear until the next month.
...

quite possible. May I ask if you are new to this, as I see a join date in 2011?
If yes, then what are your impressions and how do you feel?

 

[sitram]

Not sure if this holds for EU as well. As there is an RCE you have to know what items are requested, get information about them and understand the market. So reading forums gives quite some insights and therefor I would have expected that quite some players are also forum members.

There is also the possibility to find out new information from forum without making an account, by browsing it as guest.

One thing I noticed for sure is that being active on forum doesn't necessarily mean being active in game, quite contrary actually.

 

[Seventy Was]

quite possible. May I ask if you are new to this, as I see a join date in 2011?
If yes, then what are your impressions and how do you feel?

Impressions are good, I had put off joining this game for many years because I had thought it was just another version of Second Life.
I then saw that Crysis Engine was part of it and made an account to see how it played. The main attraction is the graphics quality, I still at that time though it was a thing like Second Life. I did the usual new player stuff sweat camps, missions, gathering TP and so on. Got stuck for 3 hours once doing the mission to get to Fort Fury but managed eventually to find a way out. Tried Crafting and thought the game had bugged on me because I received what I now know as a Global worth 247 PED. I used the windfall to buy a Slep./Valk./Boat. Anyway I continued on $20 to $50 a month for a few months with some Pixie+A2 and Breers/Rikers and got more globals.

The financial aspects of the game are not really that important to me, everytime I deposit I treat it as money gone, for me there is no investment aspect at all, I am just paying to have some fun. In all previous MMO that I have played/play I have always been able to accumulate decent in-game wealth at a cost of playing enjoyment, here my intention is just to pay to play and have fun. Not having to grind stuff to buy something later on is a huge attraction. I don't want my gaming to turn into just another form of employment, having spent many years working for a living, it is time to ease off on that. So I think I can currently be in the group of regular depositors that can afford to do so.

Ok as to feelings, the game is great! I enjoy playing, be it Swunting Puny at a low level of expenditure or exploring and blasting away at the mid level beasts hindering my progress. I've completed the Daikiba and Merp Iron missions, both of which after recycling at TT values cost around 300 and 500 PED respectively.

However there are some negative impressions that do stand a chance of dampening my enthusiasm for Entropia. Upfront replacement costs due to (L) Items, these put me off from continuing a level of activity I may be at. I do hunt with an efficient setup, but can really relate to why players hunt with a 'no-hassle' all UL setup. I am also concerned for the future where I will hit a massive paywall barrier to hunt at significantly higher levels and will probably park my character and move on to a different game.

 

[falkao]

Impressions are good
..

The financial aspects of the game are not really that important to me, everytime I deposit I treat it as money gone, for me there is no investment aspect at all, I am just paying to have some fun. ..
..

Ok as to feelings, the game is great! I enjoy playing, be it Swunting Puny at a low level of expenditure or exploring and blasting away at the mid level beasts hindering my progress.
..
However there are some negative impressions that do stand a chance of dampening my enthusiasm for Entropia. Upfront replacement costs due to (L) Items, these put me off from continuing a level of activity I may be at. I do hunt with an efficient setup, but can really relate to why players hunt with a 'no-hassle' all UL setup. I am also concerned for the future where I will hit a massive paywall barrier to hunt at significantly higher levels and will probably park my character and move on to a different game.

thx for your reply and it's very appreciated. So in summary you do like the game but you do have some concerns about how to progress.


Some of topic stuff:
Contemporarily there are some threads addressing user feelings and wishes. One of them is here and one here.

In both of them well known issues are raised again. All this started mainly after VU10, but was already there before. Seems as missions, achievements, space and new planets were not able to resolve them.

If I take Seventy's post, then it seems as things have changed quite a lot. When we've started way back in 2003/4, we were exploring an unknown world with many things to discover. Although, knowing that quite some gaming/implementation aspects of EU are still unknown, we have a good picture about what drives the game and about what might be improved.

Nevertheless, we (old-timers) should recognize that things have changed and motivate those willing to partake.

on topic again:
do we have enough users atm?

 

[Seventy Was]

on topic again:
do we have enough users atm?

Simple answer is no. This is the first MMO I have played that has apparently so few visible players in it. It's such I'd be hesitating to call it a MMO at all. The first 'M' in MMO I believe stands for Massively. Twin Peaks does have numbers but not that many for a single server-environment game.

 

[In Love With]

Not sure if this holds for EU as well. As there is an RCE you have to know what items are requested, get information about them and understand the market. So reading forums gives quite some insights and therefor I would have expected that quite some players are also forum members.

Please bare in mind that quite a chunk of players are not English speaking. I have a German friend of mine who has never been to this forum depositing €200 or more every month ... So taking forum activity into consideration is inaccurate in my opinion as then you would have to check the Geman forums, the French, the Dutch etc. etc.

Angel