Developer-Notes--3

[falkao]

Does this thread have any use any more ? Maybe it should be locked? ...

I don't see any reason to lock this thread, although the discussion might not look very productive.
Due to the dev notes, many had to acknowledge that things might be different from their beliefs and changing mind is difficult. Hence let them speak.

 

[remontoire]

I don't see any reason to lock this thread, although the discussion might not look very productive.
Due to the dev notes, many had to acknowledge that things might be different from their beliefs and changing mind is difficult. Hence let them speak.

Agreed for discussion, but not some of the mindless insult throwing.

 

[wizzszz]

mkay, I took a look into your RL pic. One of the best jokes I have heard from you.

Well, that was mean.



I fully agree with the rest though, that's how NH rolls.

And i am seriously worried about the amount of time and effort he puts into his little private dislikes.

I think getting laid wouldn't hurt some here.



Not-so-nice opinions must have a place in every discussion, otherwise there would be just a big chorus, just fanboys singing the same song.

Which brings me to this:

+ Rep.

And some ppl on this forum should really get a life you insulting twats.

Keeps me wondering why you guys are still allowed to post on this forum.

If you have so much scepticism toward this game I wonder what your motivation is to come on the forum justifiying all your stupid comments towards ppl who still enjoy this game.

Scepticism is a good thing, it keeps you from making mistakes.
Why is it so hard to get that you can be sceptic and love the game at the same time?
We still argue because we don't want to take the final step and leave, because we still think that things CAN improve.

Actually, i think the sceptics are the driving force behind any improvement, why improve a product which 100% of the customers find perfectly alright??

@ wisszss a clarification please

I was going to reply, but then thought i would ask a question first.....just so we are talking the same discussion

Please pick one or two for that is closest to your opinion:

Do you believe any of the following?

1) Uneco = less % tt return than being eco?
2) Loot is fixed based on mob health? (i.e. doesnt matter what you use or how you kill a mob, the loot is fixed)

If the answer is no to both, please supply your opinion, one small sentance like mine would be nice R

Rgds

Ace

Almost missed your post in between!

No to both, although it might be possible that eco may give better short/mid term results.

I still think that loot is based on what you spend, and the more i think of it, the less doubts i have.
Every other scenario is nothing but roulette in disguise when you look close enough.

People call me all kinds of things because of that, but honestly, i think that dropping something you believe in so quickly is just a sign that you never really believed it - and according to House M.D. "Everybody lies", so why should a company be more honest than others? After all, they are just trying to protect their jobs and incomes.

Would you not lie to keep your job?
Think of the installments for the new car,
the house you still have to pay off,
and the unthinkable alternative that you may end up unemployed and lose the car and the house... and subsequently the wife and the kids...

I think many people would lie under that circumstances,
so why does everyone want me to blindly believe what MA says?
It is incredibly naive to not even take into consideration that they may be telling you bullshit.

 

[Ace Flyster]

No to both, although it might be possible that eco may give better short/mid term results.

I still think that loot is based on what you spend, and the more i think of it, the less doubts i have.

KK, damn i wish there was some definitive proof either way

As for me, you know i believe loot to be based purely on mobs health. Unfortunatley i dont have much to support this theory. But my main points are these

1) i dont have a lot of faith in MA's coding abilities....hence for them to base loot algors on what you spend would involve horrendously complicated coding (imo). Cannot remember if i said it, but keeping track on every avatar, shared loot, different weapons/setups..the list is rather long.

I suppose the other way they could code it, link damage to mob from avatars (ie the other way round). But i would still use the argument i used above.

2) "no personal loot pool"....now i know i am grabbing at straws here but to me that implies no tracking (at least limited tracking)

Although getting a test on your theory should not be too hard....get the most uneco gun ingame and record tt returns. It should be clear (without uber loots) where the trend is going. Is there a suitable weapon to do this with? i dont mind testing a bit. It would have to be at least half the eco of a "normal" weapon

Rgds

Ace

 

[wizzszz]

KK, damn i wish there was some definitive proof either way

Me, too

As for me, you know i believe loot to be based purely on mobs health. Unfortunatley i dont have much to support this theory. But my main points are these

This would be nothing but roulette imo, that your wager isn't fixed doesn't account for the massive ups and downs in loot, which (there would be no other choice if you don't track losses) are distributed randomly.

And random = gambling, unless you make sure the returns are personal.

1) i dont have a lot of faith in MA's coding abilities....hence for them to base loot algors on what you spend would involve horrendously complicated coding (imo). Cannot remember if i said it, but keeping track on every avatar, shared loot, different weapons/setups..the list is rather long.

Me neither, me neither - but they keep track on the decay of dozends of items, keeping track of losses would e dead simple:
Just imagine this (and let's just assume decay is lost, to keep it simple):

Every time you pull the trigger of your gun, an ammo stack is reduced by, say, 10 PEC - it would be no problem to keep a hidden "losses" stack and instead of only lowering the ammo stack, you shift 10 PEC from the ammo stack to an "invisible" PED stack in your inventory.

Coding a personal loot pool (assuming the other stuff is already working) would take far less than one day,
there is really nothing complicated, no states to observe, no complex decision matrix.

I suppose the other way they could code it, link damage to mob from avatars (ie the other way round). But i would still use the argument i used above.

Same difference actually, both systems are not hard to code.

2) "no personal loot pool"....now i know i am grabbing at straws here but to me that implies no tracking (at least limited tracking)

That there is a session based or short term tracking is out of question - how often do globals match your losses (minus a fixed fee ~10%)? How is that possible when loot is just a multiple of the kill cost/mob health?

Although getting a test on your theory should not be too hard....get the most uneco gun ingame and record tt returns. It should be clear (without uber loots) where the trend is going. Is there a suitable weapon to do this with? i dont mind testing a bit. It would have to be at least half the eco of a "normal" weapon

We all had very uneco guns not too long ago - how many players maxed a non-SIB gun before SIB was introduced?
Yet the losses were pretty much what we have now.


But yeah, why not put some meat on the bones and get some data.

I have suggested two weapons before, perfect for a test - anyone willing to sell (craft) me a Mux-2 for TT?
Getting hands on an improved embra should be a bit more of a problem, they don't drop that often afaik.
But any other maxed SIB weapon in the ~4.5 dmg/PEC range should do.

/Edit:
Maybe we should not compare melee to ranged weapons though, as we do not know if they treat decay the same way as a mixed ammo&decay costs.
And the dmg/sec should be in the same range, to account for mob health regen.

Loughlin Smacker Three (L) appears to be a good choice, even when the eco is a bit lower (4.157),
it is a power fist, to, approx. the same dmg/sec and maxed around level 11.






(I'd love to hear MAs explanation on the "JUELZ MIC-Killa SG-ULTRA (L)" dropping on RT - 14.107 dmg/pec is way above everything we know)

 

[Ace Flyster]

Me, too



This would be nothing but roulette imo, that your wager isn't fixed doesn't account for the massive ups and downs in loot, which (there would be no other choice if you don't track losses) are distributed randomly.

And random = gambling, unless you make sure the returns are personal.





Me neither, me neither - but they keep track on the decay of dozends of items, keeping track of losses would e dead simple:
Just imagine this (and let's just assume decay is lost, to keep it simple):

Every time you pull the trigger of your gun, an ammo stack is reduced by, say, 10 PEC - it would be no problem to keep a hidden "losses" stack and instead of only lowering the ammo stack, you shift 10 PEC from the ammo stack to an "invisible" PED stack in your inventory.

Coding a personal loot pool (assuming the other stuff is already working) would take far less than one day,
there is really nothing complicated, no states to observe, no complex decision matrix.



Same difference actually, both systems are not hard to code.



That there is a session based or short term tracking is out of question - how often do globals match your losses (minus a fixed fee ~10%)? How is that possible when loot is just a multiple of the kill cost/mob health?



We all had very uneco guns not too long ago - how many players maxed a non-SIB gun before SIB was introduced?
Yet the losses were pretty much what we have now.


But yeah, why not put some meat on the bones and get some data.

I have suggested two weapons before, perfect for a test - anyone willing to sell (craft) me a Mux-2 for TT?
Getting hands on an improved embra should be a bit more of a problem, they don't drop that often afaik.
But any other maxed SIB weapon in the 4.5+ dmg/PEC range should do.

I was thinking a better test would be both maxed guns, but one of them is silly uneco. I think that would be better for tt loot returns vs eco of gun. Cause adding in HA and dam they are more variables...firstly to just look at eco of gun, ie dam/pec would be a good start imo. Could look at HA's later

Rgds

Ace

 

[wizzszz]

I was thinking a better test would be both maxed guns, but one of them is silly uneco. I think that would be better for tt loot returns vs eco of gun. Cause adding in HA and dam they are more variables...firstly to just look at eco of gun, ie dam/pec would be a good start imo. Could look at HA's later

Rgds

Ace

I think we should try to get as much difference as we can get, including advantage by SIB (a lot of people stick to their oldschool guns even though they are nowhere close to maxing it) - it will not be easy to get two SIB weapons with the same huge difference in dmg/pec.

Maybe one of those butting in all the time with silly comments can prove that they are indeed not only here for trolling and help us with the weapons choice and maybe even help testing...!??!

 

[Joat]

MAs has a history of hyping stuff to left and right, even thou' they have become
way better thesedays not doing it that much anymore.
Imo, I think people need to read between the lines a bit more when it comes to MA.
As with devnotes, do they comment all and every loot there?
No, it's about "overall result over time", not specific, individual looting.
Imo, what the devontes are more about, is to reduce peoples losses so they can hunt
more and longer, not losing their depos too quick.
It isn't about how lootsystem handles our progress for individual loot interaction.

When it comes to how loot is built up, imo system do track what we use in a
ongoing progress. Hard to code? Isn't that what dynamic coding are for?
They say they don't track return, but they didn't say they don't track what we "spend".

I doubt loot is based on health, since that would clearly go against one of the reason
EU isn't judged as gambling, "you can't just grab a gun, go out and succeed.
Even thou' that is possible... But ok, not for each and everyone, that happens
rarely.

When it comes to globals (50ped and up to highest), I still believe those has to be
matched in both avatars loot progress and a part that is controlled in general.

 

[Joat]

I think we should try to get as much difference as we can get, including advantage by SIB (a lot of people stick to their oldschool guns even though they are nowhere close to maxing it) - it will not be easy to get two SIB weapons with the same huge difference in dmg/pec.

Maybe one of those butting in all the time with silly comments can prove that they are indeed not only here for trolling and help us with the weapons choice and maybe even help testing...!??!

Sadly I can't afford to help out (I don't depo anymore, well not for now at least), otherwise I could
have done a alternative test, using mkV+203 vs mkV+eamp13.
Since these two do same amount of total damage (type of damage is different thou') they will reduce
HP in same amount, but have a different cost per interaction.

 

[JohnCapital]

--Mod comment--
Nighthawk, Pyhä Antero, Wizzszz, etc.
Knock.
It.
Off.

Nighthawk, post #353: If you ever get that close to making RL threats again, you'll find yourself with a lot of time on your hands.

Pyhä Antero: Being upset about things ingame is fine. But knock off the name calling and insults.

Wizzszz: glad to see you moved on to discussing things w/ Ace instead of this crap w/ Nighthawk, so moving on.

Every time you bring logic or realism to this forum that might remotely make sense how screwed up this game is, you are labelled as negative or a whiner.

God forbid if you are a sceptic ... The sky is falling comment will pop up

Really? You are complaining about not being able to express negative opinions on this forum?

Did the part where I got banned for getting sick of too much ridiculous whining and complaining really escape you? Are you honestly missing the posts where people are saying things like "not sure why I bother w/ this forum w/ all this BS complaining."

Too everyone:
Play nice.
Debate like adults.
If insults are all you know, be prepared to spend time off this forum.
--/Mod comment--

 

[Neil Stockton]

Really just one comment at this point. If you think MA is lying in their Dev Notes, you really need to withdraw your peds and close your account.

 

[wizzszz]

Really just one comment at this point. If you think MA is lying in their Dev Notes, you really need to withdraw your peds and close your account.

Then we all have to do that - MA has told us so many thing that turned out to be untrue.

Or am i just being negative and you still think that the unique atrox queen egg will still "take my breath away" one day?
Do you think that "all items still drop", including unique, SGA items, modfaps?

How about "there is no luck involved" and "all avatars are equal"?

How about "we didn't change the loot system since beta", yet always-looter mobs (above a certain health) suddenly stopped having always loot? How about the big loot nerf?

How about all the broken promises, all the nerfs and other crap that has destroyed 100,000s of players PEDs, like scannergate and the ridiculous statement they gave us afterwards.

How does "we won't change item stats" look after they nerfed amps?
How does it feel when your high end gun becomes a worthless piece of crap overnight because every noob with an Isis can outdamage you now? Same happened with skills.

I think some scepticism is in order, just you look at my poll:
Roughly 5 out of 10 voters think that it is possible that they would lie or tell us contradictory things to confuse us, so you want 50% of the playerbase to quit over "yet another not so 100% true statement from MA"?

Is that really what you're suggesting here? Be careful what you wish for, i could become reality far too quickly...

Wizzszz: glad to see you moved on to discussing things w/ Ace instead of this crap w/ Nighthawk, so moving on.

Really? You are complaining about not being able to express negative opinions on this forum?

Did the part where I got banned for getting sick of too much ridiculous whining and complaining really escape you? Are you honestly missing the posts where people are saying things like "not sure why I bother w/ this forum w/ all this BS complaining."

I think what he meant is more like it is forbidden, only that if you do you have to deal with a bunch of fanboys that attack you for every not-so-nice statement, making it practically impossible to say something negative about MA or EU if you not willing to have a fight with 3 or 4 people afterwards. And i agree with that assessment.

 

[Ace Flyster]

@ wizzszz

Harmony was waiting for stuff to sell and persuded me to start testing

So just fyi, when i think enough runs have been done i will publish the results and luckily harm is also doing it, so fingers crossed we get similar results

And i am using the mux-2, with opalo and one other none sib with similar dps but with twice the eco of mux-2 to get some hopefully meaningful good all round results. Any suggestions for the latter gun? (none sib similar dps to mux-2 but with twice the dam/pec?)

Rgds

Ace

 

[remontoire]

And i am using the mux-2, with opalo and one other none sib with similar dps but with twice the eco of mux-2 to get some hopefully meaningful good all round results. Any suggestions for the latter gun? (none sib similar dps to mux-2 but with twice the dam/pec?)
Ace

EWE EP-14 has exactly the same dps, but almost 2x the eco as mux-2 (assuming similar levels). Jasonich mp on the blp side has 7.6 and close to 2x eco.

Breer MA2(L) has very close dps (7.5 vs 7.3), but over twice dpp. lp120 niloticus has 7.6 dps (vs 7.3) but again 2x dpp.

Assuming i did not completely misuderstand you.

 

[JohnCapital]

I think what he meant is more like it is forbidden, only that if you do you have to deal with a bunch of fanboys that attack you for every not-so-nice statement, making it practically impossible to say something negative about MA or EU if you not willing to have a fight with 3 or 4 people afterwards. And i agree with that assessment.

I find both comments, both positive and negative usually have some folks who disagree. So on that level I'd say Sunny's comment was flawed.

And frankly, just as some like to use the "complaining about complainers" excuse, I find it silly for people to complain about not being to complain enough on this forum.

 

[Mega]

I think its time for Developer Notes 4.

 

[Uvas]

Then we all have to do that - MA has told us so many thing that turned out to be untrue.

Or am i just being negative and you still think that the unique atrox queen egg will still "take my breath away" one day?
Do you think that "all items still drop", including unique, SGA items, modfaps?

How about "there is no luck involved" and "all avatars are equal"?

How about "we didn't change the loot system since beta", yet always-looter mobs (above a certain health) suddenly stopped having always loot? How about the big loot nerf?

How about all the broken promises, all the nerfs and other crap that has destroyed 100,000s of players PEDs, like scannergate and the ridiculous statement they gave us afterwards.

How does "we won't change item stats" look after they nerfed amps?
How does it feel when your high end gun becomes a worthless piece of crap overnight because every noob with an Isis can outdamage you now? Same happened with skills.

I think some scepticism is in order, just you look at my poll:
Roughly 5 out of 10 voters think that it is possible that they would lie or tell us contradictory things to confuse us, so you want 50% of the playerbase to quit over "yet another not so 100% true statement from MA"?

Is that really what you're suggesting here? Be careful what you wish for, i could become reality far too quickly...








I think what he meant is more like it is forbidden, only that if you do you have to deal with a bunch of fanboys that attack you for every not-so-nice statement, making it practically impossible to say something negative about MA or EU if you not willing to have a fight with 3 or 4 people afterwards. And i agree with that assessment.

I think he is right.

If MA is so evil, you should pack your bags and go and not look back.

Saying that, I will miss your entertainment very much.

 

[danimal01]

.. I will miss your entertainment very much.. [wizzszz]

Not I

~Danimal

 

[Ace Flyster]

EWE EP-14 has exactly the same dps, but almost 2x the eco as mux-2 (assuming similar levels). Jasonich mp on the blp side has 7.6 and close to 2x eco.

Breer MA2(L) has very close dps (7.5 vs 7.3), but over twice dpp. lp120 niloticus has 7.6 dps (vs 7.3) but again 2x dpp.

Assuming i did not completely misuderstand you.

Yep sounds like ewe ep-14 is probably the best one, although i will have better HA and Dam but at least it would be a fairer test!!

I only did three runs last night, and i realised that to help with my hyposthesis that loot is tied to health that i need to write down each loot i get.....i havent so far, but future runs i will i suppose

Rgds

Ace

 

[Argh non Ral]

Hunting ECO is clear.

But hunting mobs in your skill level? ... Could that mean I get 30-60%TT return on small mobs (naked, no fap, most eco dps/dpp available) because I am far overskilled??

Could that mean that there is no cake for me unless I am willing to circulate 30x the amount of peds on big mobs?

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

But hunting mobs in your skill level? ... Could that mean I get 30-60%TT return on small mobs (naked, no fap, most eco dps/dpp available) because I am far overskilled??

Could that mean that there is no cake for me unless I am willing to circulate 30x the amount of peds on big mobs?

I believe they mean max level. Like if you have only lvl 3 evade, hunting Atrox and such will hardly be eco (even if your armor can take it) as you will be hit often and get a lot of decay

 

[bettlejus]

I believe they mean max level. Like if you have only lvl 3 evade, hunting Atrox and such will hardly be eco (even if your armor can take it) as you will be hit often and get a lot of decay

yeah, take it this way, the only thing you should accomplish in hunting efficient is a max efficiency

Like lvl 20 evader for trox and so on

It doesn;t mean that If I hunt Foul naked with 160 HP and lvl 35 evader I would get lower results, I actually hit the max efficiency ( in defense cost) for Foul at maybe lvl 10 evader

I am actually hunting Fouls, done about 2K by now and my TT results are on positive side, they will decrease, but I don't think it will go that bad, how bad can it get when run costs 65 ped?) full A101 +Opallo

 

[falkao]

..
As for me, you know i believe loot to be based purely on mobs health. Unfortunatley i dont have much to support this theory. But my main points are these
.

Not sure if you do remember the Merry Mayhem in 2009. There were a lot of complaints about bad loots. Especially those that did hunt with a pretagger noticed low returns.
Hence fluske started testing and here are the results.

Loot was lower when using a pretagger contrasted to solo and team and was proportional to dmg done by looter in the pretagged group and to overall hp dmg done in the other groups. One year later MA changed rules and allowed teams in Merry Mayhem.

There are other experiments as well, all showing that loot is proportional to dmg done.
Nevertheless, there is one exception when using a capped amp (amp too large for weapon). The additional cost due to the dmg cap influences loot, although dmg done is the same.

 

[Serica]

....

So, what you're saying is that there is no 'advantage' to killstealing, because the KSr only gets loot in relation to his own damage? The damage done by others is simply lost?

 

[falkao]

So, what you're saying is that there is no 'advantage' to killstealing, because the KSr only gets loot in relation to his own damage? The damage done by others is simply lost?

yep in terms of loot. What we still don't know is what happens to items.

 

[Pyhä Antero]

Not sure if you do remember the Merry Mayhem in 2009. There were a lot of complaints about bad loots. Especially those that did hunt with a pretagger noticed low returns.
Hence fluske started testing and here are the results.

Loot was lower when using a pretagger contrasted to solo and team and was proportional to dmg done by looter in the pretagged group and to overall hp dmg done in the other groups. One year later MA changed rules and allowed teams in Merry Mayhem.

There are other experiments as well, all showing that loot is proportional to dmg done.
Nevertheless, there is one exception when using a capped amp (amp too large for weapon). The additional cost due to the dmg cap influences loot, although dmg done is the same.

I think that these tests are outdated and loot isn't proportional to dmg done. Do you have any newer results, backing up that base loot would differ if there was a team or not? Those THING hunters could maybe share their experiments...

 

[falkao]

I think that these tests are outdated and loot isn't proportional to dmg done. Do you have any newer results, backing up that base loot would differ if there was a team or not? Those THING hunters could maybe share their experiments...

Here some recent data (2011).
The experiment stopped due to lack of data.

 

[Serica]

I sort of remember those threads, although I never really read them in depth at the time.

I do now however wonder if those might have been the ones referred to by MA in Dev-Note-2:

... A growing number of participants seem to have adopted an approach based on the theory that "economy does not matter", a theory apparently based on (faulty) field tests or other experiments ...

and if so, what that might imply for the 'pre-tagging' issue mentioned earlier.

I'm thinking of this in terms of WoF loots incidentally, and while I don't think the Aussie team has ever explicitly analysed their loot (too busy shooting!), I don't think our mainteam loots have been significantly less than other teams due to our support team assistance with tagging/pre-damaging.

 

[falkao]

...I do now however wonder if those might have been the ones referred to by MA in Dev-Note-2:

... A growing number of participants seem to have adopted an approach based on the theory that "economy does not matter", a theory apparently based on (faulty) field tests or other experiments ...

Might be related to the many log threads and wrong interpretations of data.

and if so, what that might imply for the 'pre-tagging' issue mentioned earlier.

I'm thinking of this in terms of WoF loots incidentally, and while I don't think the Aussie team has ever explicitly analysed their loot (too busy shooting!), I don't think our mainteam loots have been significantly less than other teams due to our support team assistance with tagging/pre-damaging.

well, your loot should have been lower as without pre-tagging. It's rather easy to verify as fluske did and with the new trackers you'll get dmg done for free.

 

[Ace Flyster]

Not sure if you do remember the Merry Mayhem in 2009. There were a lot of complaints about bad loots. Especially those that did hunt with a pretagger noticed low returns.
Hence fluske started testing and here are the results.

Loot was lower when using a pretagger contrasted to solo and team and was proportional to dmg done by looter in the pretagged group and to overall hp dmg done in the other groups. One year later MA changed rules and allowed teams in Merry Mayhem.

There are other experiments as well, all showing that loot is proportional to dmg done.
Nevertheless, there is one exception when using a capped amp (amp too large for weapon). The additional cost due to the dmg cap influences loot, although dmg done is the same.

Hey falkao

Yep, i had forgotten about that test. So bottom line, received loot was proportional to damage done by looter?

I struggle sometimes to follow your posts

Rgds

Ace

PS when my testing is done on eco vs loot, can i email you the results so you can wave your magic wand at them and do the stats?

PPS i just realised how dodgy that last sentance was lol