Does the system compensate for previous returns?

[TheAlchemist]

Does the loot system adjust returns based on previous actions. Like if you got a big multiplier your return is going to be lower (or your multipliers).
And if you did something stupid like crafting or losing a lot of ped, does the system reward you with a better returns (or multipliers)?

In essence, does the system track an avatars overall return and adjusts to it
Or
does everyone has the same chance, no matter what their previous return was
?

 

[Sulje]

Officially there is no personal loot pools, and whatever you lost you're not getting back.

 

[Sub-Zero]

Yes, yes, yes, no.

 

[TheAlchemist]

Officially there is no personal loot pools, and whatever you lost you're not getting back.

I know that there is no "official loot pool" but I rather wait until MA says that previous returns aren't tracked.

Historically there have been some examples of people spending a lot of money and getting a high multiplier.
Didn't dub spend a lot on skill chips and suddenly got a ruga tower.
There was a trader in my soc in the olden days that got very high multipliers a couple of times dispite standing most of his time in twins buying ores, refining them and putting them on auction.
Before loot 2.0 some people would spend a lot of time healing and then getting a high multiplier. Some even exploited this in events. (I think MA silently fixed this)


I had a suspicion for a long time that one's chance to get a multiplier depends on one's historical return. The higher the historical return, the lower the chance of a multiplier. This is to discourage people from "counting cards" so to speak, seeking loot waves (either consciously or intuitively).

I have a theory that this system was added, or tweaked in early 2008.

Note that this system does affect base loot. Base loot always will be between 0.25 - 2 .5x cost to kill. and the average return of base loot is dependent on eff + looter pro, but will cap out at a certain percentage (90% something). Higher returns are due to multipliers which are tracked by historical return.

In this sense there is no personal loot pool, or any loot pool at all. There is just a mechanism that prevents anyone from profiting.
This would also make MA very different from gambling because in theory, in gambling there is a chance to beat the house.

 

[Crabby]

In essence, does the system track an avatars overall return and adjusts to it

No, once you loot a mob that ends the story between you and it. Same goes for each craft, probe.

When amale got that 60k USD hof, I highly doubt he lost 63K USD before that happened. With the law of large numbers there's no need to keep track of the individual player's return. EDIT:...For the purpose of adjusting a player's return %. I didn't say they don't track that data, I said it wasn't necessary to record, nor use it to determine people's loot. Don't twist my words.

 

[Killahbee]

 

[TheAlchemist]

No, once you loot a mob that ends the story between you and it. Same goes for each craft, probe.

When amale got that 60k USD hof, I highly doubt he lost 63K USD before that happened. With the law of large numbers there's no need to keep track of the individual player's return.

I'm more interested in how his spread of multipliers is after that ATH.

The system I describe doesn't say someone can't have a huge multiplier once. It does however describe that a person cannot have 2 huge multipliers in a row without losing a significant amount in between.

@miseGXr is the only one that can answer if his returns are lower or his multi's are further in between.
It would be interesting to know what he notices in the coming year.

 

[Deepa2]

I know that there is no "official loot pool" but I rather wait until MA says that previous returns aren't tracked.

Historically there have been some examples of people spending a lot of money and getting a high multiplier.
Didn't dub spend a lot on skill chips and suddenly got a ruga tower.
There was a trader in my soc in the olden days that got very high multipliers a couple of times dispite standing most of his time in twins buying ores, refining them and putting them on auction.
Before loot 2.0 some people would spend a lot of time healing and then getting a high multiplier. Some even exploited this in events. (I think MA silently fixed this)


I had a suspicion for a long time that one's chance to get a multiplier depends on one's historical return. The higher the historical return, the lower the chance of a multiplier. This is to discourage people from "counting cards" so to speak, seeking loot waves (either consciously or intuitively).

I have a theory that this system was added, or tweaked in early 2008.

Note that this system does affect base loot. Base loot always will be between 0.25 - 2 .5x cost to kill. and the average return of base loot is dependent on eff + looter pro, but will cap out at a certain percentage (90% something). Higher returns are due to multipliers which are tracked by historical return.

In this sense there is no personal loot pool, or any loot pool at all. There is just a mechanism that prevents anyone from profiting.
This would also make MA very different from gambling because in theory, in gambling there is a chance to beat the house.

By way of discussion, and without any intention to offence any opinion/persons.

For these of you, who believe MA does not tracking you to the single fucking bullet you shot - Visit Rocktropia. On each landing they show you achievements, not only to the single laser or blp weapon use, but even how many kilometers you have driven.

So the only part i agree on commented text is: There is just a mechanism that prevents anyone from profiting.

 

[Alina]

I'm more interested in how his spread of multipliers is after that ATH.

The system I describe doesn't say someone can't have a huge multiplier once. It does however describe that a person cannot have 2 huge multipliers in a row without losing a significant amount in between.

@miseGXr is the only one that can answer if his returns are lower or his multi's are further in between.
It would be interesting to know what he notices in the coming year.

if u ask me > a period he will get lower returns

 

[TheAlchemist]

if u ask me > a period he will get lower returns

It seems you speak from experience? And I might say you are bound to have a lot of experience.

 

[JohnCapital]

Whether there's a personal pool, server pool, vast ocean or whatever, let's consider this:

The system can not make loot unless activity occurs.
Therefore, loot is based strictly on our activity.
If we accept that the system wants to give a roughly 90-95% back long-term (amounts vary and I'm not gonna debate the exact %)

Then, if there's a backlog of tt return that's not been given yet
and there's some trigger that tells the system to dump the available contents to reach proper return yield

A big payout (mega-uber, ATH, etc.) occurs in proportion to the amount of reserves, which as I laid out above, is based strictly on the quantity of activity the player(s) do.
So more low-return activity = more built up for large payout. But whether it goes to the person who lost it or some rando is under debate.

At this point, the reserves are dry and the random loot math may be more likely (but not guaranteed to) score lower to build it back up for the next time.

At least, that's how I might make a loot system designed for 1 or multiple players on 1 or multiple servers where specific activity and output is unknown before hand.

 

[WoenK]

pre loot 2.0 I got more globals hunting if I crafted full condition before that without getting any globals.
Not that I profited, but it balanced the losses a bit out and definately never was above the losses.
After loot 2.0 the randomenss increased, one coukd not predict "I lose 2k on EP4 and get 1,5k within the next hours". More like you losses will be paid back within the next 6 months (based on a statement in MAs yearly revenue report a few years ago where any deposits after 6 months are marked as "profits"). High Multipliers are "luck", high number of low multipliers surely affect the oucome of having a high multipliers.
I believe in the "personal loot pool", not in a way that there is some lott "reserved" for me, but rather that there are measures in place that count my losses at TT and from time to time force the system to pay me back. There are a few "noob" EP4 crafters that got high payouts, but I think that rather than beeing "lucky" they simply got a part of what they lost back.
So yeah, I believe the system has to track you and pay you back to be half-way fair. Else you could end up having bad "luck" for years while losing gazillions and a selected few would be "lucky" all the time and get the returns you lost.

 

[TheAlchemist]

Whether there's a personal pool, server pool, vast ocean or whatever, let's consider this:

The system can not make loot unless activity occurs.
Therefore, loot is based strictly on our activity.
If we accept that the system wants to give a roughly 90-95% back long-term (amounts vary and I'm not gonna debate the exact %)

Then, if there's a backlog of tt return that's not been given yet
and there's some trigger that tells the system to dump the available contents to reach proper return yield

A big payout (mega-uber, ATH, etc.) occurs in proportion to the amount of reserves, which as I laid out above, is based strictly on the quantity of activity the player(s) do.
So more low-return activity = more built up for large payout. But whether it goes to the person who lost it or some rando is under debate.

At this point, the reserves are dry and the random loot math may be more likely (but not guaranteed to) score lower to build it back up for the next time.

At least, that's how I might make a loot system designed for 1 or multiple players on 1 or multiple servers where specific activity and output is unknown before hand.

I think this only counts for the highest multiplier (or one of the multipliers).
There is no need to do this with all mutlipliers since the number of multiplied loots is in direct correlation with amount of loot events which is direct correlation with the amount of activity. Less activity means less multiplied loots.
You just need a system that works on any scale and has a buffer variable.

So, while it is very plausible that there is such a "back log multiplier", I believe there are at least 2 or 3 multipliers that are based upon other conditions.
(time, place,...)

Now, I believe that the chance that someone gets a multiplier or combination of multipliers is dependent on that avatars history of getting multipliers.

Taking what @WoenK said in consideration it might be that a multiplier is not anymore guarantied but a chance to get an extra multiplier exists.

A loot event could be seen as a sequence like this:
- Base loot (0.25-2.5x cost)
If multiplier then grand a chance on a mini (2-10x) --> trigger/wave multiplier
- if historic multiplier return is low then add multiplier 25-250x --> fairness multiplier
- if "lootpool" is plenty then a chance on another multiplier 40x --> lootpool multiplier (lootpool for each profession?)

Above might be a simplification or not. Basically for most loot events the system doesn't do much. And when the conditions are met for a mini, then it checks your chance to get more.

If the "loot server" lags, you can't repair or drill a claim without lag because each action causes a decay that is calculated and stored. I think if a user session ends that session variable (or variables) might be written and stored, similarly how your latitude and longitude are stored. (note that height isn't stored, that's how we used to make people towers that climbed into the sky be relogging.)

Since everything happens in the player session of the server (much like how every user in a php website has it's own session), it is not only easy to achieve this; it is very likely.

@JohnCapital That's how I would implement things

 

[mastermesh]

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[True Juan]

I am fairly sure MA somehow does track our loot. I've seen too many coincidences.... (Me, my socmates, and other players I've talked to).

 

[inkumario]

if they dont track how do they know ur loot return yearly to tell u in support cases if u ask them

 

[Sub-Zero]

I am fairly sure MA somehow does track our loot. I've seen too many coincidences.... (Me, my socmates, and other players I've talked to).

They do. Have faith in the system people. Keep shooting, your time to shine will come.

 

[JohnCapital]

I think this only counts for the highest multiplier (or one of the multipliers).

I disagree. I did specify ubers and ATHs, but fact is, that "try to get to normal" part applies to runs as well. You can get poor loot during a hunt., mine or craft, then many (not all) times, you get a mini, or global or whatever and get back into "good enough for now" range as far as the system is concerned.

My main point was this: You asked...

Does the loot system adjust returns based on previous actions. Like if you got a big multiplier your return is going to be lower

And my point is, yes, it will, because whatever triggered that big loot event (regardless of size) now needs to be replenished.

That doesn't mean you always get sub 85% returns for long time after a huge loot. Just means maybe more likely to have lower returns for a lil while until things readjust again. Maybe.

 

[MrFatBoy]

Whether there's a personal pool, server pool, vast ocean or whatever, let's consider this:

The system can not make loot unless activity occurs.
Therefore, loot is based strictly on our activity.
If we accept that the system wants to give a roughly 90-95% back long-term (amounts vary and I'm not gonna debate the exact %)

Then, if there's a backlog of tt return that's not been given yet
and there's some trigger that tells the system to dump the available contents to reach proper return yield

A big payout (mega-uber, ATH, etc.) occurs in proportion to the amount of reserves, which as I laid out above, is based strictly on the quantity of activity the player(s) do.
So more low-return activity = more built up for large payout. But whether it goes to the person who lost it or some rando is under debate.

At this point, the reserves are dry and the random loot math may be more likely (but not guaranteed to) score lower to build it back up for the next time.

At least, that's how I might make a loot system designed for 1 or multiple players on 1 or multiple servers where specific activity and output is unknown before hand.

wouldn't it be easier to just say its like a progressive slot machine (i admit i dont know how slots are programed but what you described sounds like a slot machine to me and why create a new system when you can use what already works to make sure the house always wins?)

 

[JohnCapital]

wouldn't it be easier to just say its like a progressive slot machine (i admit i dont know how slots are programed but what you described sounds like a slot machine to me and why create a new system when you can use what already works to make sure the house always wins?)

Compare it to what you want, but was any part of what I said wrong?

It's common knowledge that the system is designed to give less in loot then we spend in decay. That's the basics of Mindark's business model.
What's in question by many (not all) is the specifics of that system.

 

[MrFatBoy]

Compare it to what you want, but was any part of what I said wrong?

It's common knowledge that the system is designed to give less in loot then we spend in decay. That's the basics of Mindark's business model.
What's in question by many (not all) is the specifics of that system.

nothing wrong at all nor did i say it was wrong - i agree with what you wrote entirely

i think everyone spends time trying to figure out what it is because they don't like to admit its like a slot machine.

the specifics might just be the "manual button" that hands out certain items / loots - per what others have said in other threads. I also think this is true.

I actually really like reading these types of threads cause one day i hope i read one that actually makes me believe it is not like a slot machine and that MA does not gives out nice stuff at their will versus they "system" deciding.

 

[jetsina]

I had a suspicion for a long time that one's chance to get a multiplier depends on one's historical return. The higher the historical return, the lower the chance of a multiplier. ...

I also tend towards this, but combined with a per mob basis. Killing something like 250k carabok gave me fewer and fewer new globals over time, but lower multis still seemed normal. Moving to a new lowish mob seemed to reprovide the higher multis until the chances of those also dropped away on them.
Maybe there is also a general factor of either base skills or overall turnover that makes it less likely to get a really nice loot multi after a few weeks of play - that's obviously harder to gauge and needs more people and noobs interested in what is going on there.

 

[ermik]

I am fairly sure MA somehow does track our loot. I've seen too many coincidences.... (Me, my socmates, and other players I've talked to).

Have you counted all the non-coincidences you did not see? Brain loves patterns so much it creates them where there are none.

 

[Alina]

There always been and always will be marketing hofs. Why would those be only a bonus for players ? ) Ma really reduced the frequency of those. Lots of complains when new players were getting 5-20k hofs or aths.

@OP There was a period in game with daily 1 to 3 x 20k ped atrox. Some of those hofs were sometimes new players


Those 5-20k peds hofs we get are just our TT loss we had previous weeks/months.

 

[Deleted member 58836]

The algorithm is comprised of several sub-system like variables which combine to average you out based on another set of variables which end up at the "commission %" you pay to MindArk for providing you the platform.

Slot machine mechanics are at play.
Your skills and gear are at play.
Your choice of mob, area, blueprint are at play.
Your timing is at play.

There's a reason MindArk refuses to provide us with any analytics regarding our activities, with the exception of the aforementioned achievements.

Despite what crabby has to say, the more detailed you track your input/output and activities, the better you'll understand where you can spend more time and where you should spend less time.

Loot is also a 2 part system in itself. Both in % return and composition return. Gearing up for the best % return doesn't necessarily mean you'll also see the best composition return, however, it does frequently correlate.

MindArk cleverly made loot returns multifaceted to avoid being pegged outright as an online casino. All the professions are connected in some way and every piece of loot is connected to every profession in some way. The game wasn't built to silo you into one or the other.

 

[Crabby]

Do you think the algorithm includes Average Markup, be it day, week, month, year or decade?

Man.... You've got some interesting theories I must say.

 

[Jhereg]

I'm in the unpopular "No" school.

 

[Deleted member 58836]

Man.... You've got some interesting theories I must say.

Stirring the pot of fools is also one of my pastimes. Your obliviousness amuses me

 

[Crabby]

Stirring the pot of fools is also one of my pastimes. Your obliviousness amuses me

Yeah? What else does your crystal ball say?

 

[Deemer]

No matter how the system works, all these globals will be much better if they are not part of our TT return, but a bonus that does not affect our TT so much after its appearance.
They even come after loss to fuck us more after... it's crazy.