Help: Armatrix vs dayly token weapons

[ermik]

Now we just fucked up the MU returns from events like migration.
If people finally figure out that an ELM gun is worth just 1 ped and not the value of the regular gun.

Sorry folks.

The sacrifices we make to create a better world

 

[M Rufen Power]

Armatrix bc-40 (L): Ammo cost 13.81 pec + decay cost 1.120 pec x 1.1412 = 15.088 pec. So, dmg/pec = 44.48/15.088=2.948

Calytrek-cr-spirit-mk-3-cdf (L): Ammo cost 16.73 pec + weapon decay 0.003 pec = 16.733 pec. So, dmg/pec = 48.65/16.733= 2.907

As I said the mu is included in the calculation. If we buy an Armatrix bc-40 with 114% mu, it has lower cost than calytrec. If the mu of Armatrix bc-40 was 132.9%, it would have the same cost with calytrec...

Of course the efficiency of Armatrix is better than Calytrec cdf edition

This post would have been fine if this were still Loot 1:0 where DPP actually mattered and had an affect on returns. Not much so now, all markup paid is lost, so minimise the markup spent regardless of dpp and eff ratings. CDF wins over Armatrix.

 

[M Rufen Power]

While I agree on most of what you said I have to stop you right here because people will read it and take it as fact.



Damage per pec is VERY important. It will determine how many mobs you are killing against someone with a differing dpp for the same amount of ped. There are many situations in which one would want to optimize their dpp and efficiency for better loot composition and more looting instances (more mu loot). A person that can kill 1000 mobs compared to a person that can kill 900 for the same amount of ped is automatically at an advantage and there is no way to downplay that.

Another point...

IMHO it is a flawed mentality to only look at what you have to lose in markup and not what you have to gain in markup. That is pretty much what im reading across the board here and it is very one dimensional. There are mobs that drop low TT and very, very high MU items. So if you factor in time, because we all have 24 hours in a day, it is possible that someone paying markup for faster access to weapons is producing more than someone prioritizing CDF variants and waiting for the tokens necessary to exchange for a weapon. So for people here to say that the MU is flat out lost, that is something that is determined by the decisions one makes after such a purchase.

Not to mention the experience and knowledge of which mobs drop what and at what frequency, gained from actually being able to go out and hunt more mobs for an extended period of time. Because you caaaan check the wiki, but at best would only give you a rough idea until you try and know for yourself and decide if it is worth it to you.

If we are referring only to TT, then you would be 100% right. But there is markup involved.

My thoughts on the matter.

As for the OP, given his responses I don't think he had any intention of changing his opinion when he made this thread.

There are only literally a handful of mid level mobs that have markup on Planet Calypso, paying markup to get markup when TT returns are at the whim of an algo, is ridiculous. At best those mid level mobs with markup will allow you to break even and skill up for free but not if you are paying high mu for the setup repeatedly.

 

[Crabby]

There are only literally a handful of mid level mobs that have markup on Planet Calypso, paying markup to get markup when TT returns are at the whim of an algo, is ridiculous. At best those mid level mobs with markup will allow you to break even and skill up for free but not if you are paying high mu for the setup repeatedly.

MU on L items is not as evil as you try to make it seem. Even after mark up for lets say an ArMatrix L-Amplifier 20B (L), the difference I would lose using it compared to my Omegaton A106 is still small enough to cover through mark up gained in loot, some of those mobs on calypso as well. Some not even needing armor or pills at all. You are implying that there is only one set of cards, and that would be the UL route, so maybe everyone should go out and spend 1000 ped on a 106 amp in this case. Maybe everyone should buy UL rifles, and if they can't afford them stick to Bukin's and dedicating their careers to getting CDF rifles which aren't even available on other planets.

114% on a weapon is not exactly high mark up. It can also be further mitigated with use of extenders. Martial Armor is decent, better than ghost and low mark up, and can be fitted with the more accessible UL 5b plates to increase your hunting options.

This is the root of your philosophy right here,

"paying markup to get markup when TT returns are at the whim of an algo, is ridiculous" - Mark Rufen Power

If your desire to believe that is stronger than your desire to find a way to make it work, chances are slim to none you will ever find a way.

There are mobs dropping loot with low TT high MU loot frequently enough, that leave me scratching my head wondering why people think the way you do. ?

 

[Kerham]

114% MU can't really be mitigated with extenders. For the amount of time you put into hitting this dpp nail, you're a missing a fundamental problem: loot composition is only influenced by the actual dpp of the item, not by the economy of your purchase. Not even rings and pills have the same effect as the pure base dpp of the item/combo, let aside something which has zero to do with the system, such as price paid.

That being said, cdf are too hard to get by to be a serious alternative.

A much better choice if you're not afraid of eff loss is to look more carefully on AH, plenty of L non-Armatrix weapons with decent dpp and eff which are way more sustainable as availability than cdf.

There are mobs dropping loot with low TT high MU loot frequently enough, that leave me scratching my head wondering why people think the way you do.

MU looted must be 1. reliable 2. in sufficient quantity to have impact on the costs. Those MUs which really matter won't be made unavailable by such dpp difference as the object of discussion, you have to be in the 80s to get them and even then they're rare. If some lowlvl 114% ArMatrix would be the key to success in this game, it would be alot easier.

 

[Crabby]

114% MU can't really be mitigated with extenders.

If the MU of the extender is less than the MU of the weapon, it is mitigated, the higher the difference in MU between the items the more it is mitigated.

you're a missing a fundamental problem: loot composition is only influenced by the actual dpp of the item, not by the economy of your purchase. Not even rings and pills have the same effect as the pure base dpp of the item/combo, let aside something which has zero to do with the system, such as price paid.

Aside from loot composition there is the fact that if you can kill mobs for less, you will obviously loot more mobs for less ped. Lets say I have an item in mind, it is worth 1 PED TT lets say, but I can sell for 50 PED after mu. The loot value only has to be 1 PED for it to be a possibility to get that item you are looking for in that loot event. If we look into high TT high MU things start to get unreliable, say these crystals on Cryene which are high MU but also high TT. You would have to get a drop big enough (100 ped? i cannot remember) and if you do get a value of at least that, hope it is the crystal you are looking for. How many times can you get a 100 ped drop compared to a 1 ped drop? This is why I would target low mark up high TT.

Let me make an example. If I went to the store and bought 2 packs of dice for 100$ each. One pack had 80 dice the other 100. I want to roll as many 6's as I can, but I can only roll each individual dice one time... Which pack would be mathematically more likely to net me more 6's? The one that has more, but I bought them for the same price...

A much better choice if you're not afraid of eff loss is to look more carefully on AH, plenty of L non-Armatrix weapons with decent dpp and eff which are way more sustainable as availability than cdf.

I agree, my point was geared towards L weapons in general. I know i did not make that clear.

MU looted must be 1. reliable 2. in sufficient quantity to have impact on the costs. Those MUs which really matter won't be made unavailable by such dpp difference as the object of discussion, you have to be in the 80s to get them and even then they're rare. If some lowlvl 114% ArMatrix would be the key to success in this game, it would be alot easier.

The specific rifle in question, and the difference between the DPP before or after mark up doesn't interest me. I do understand the difference in DPP is so small but that is besides the 2 points I was trying to make in regards to if it is a better option than it's CDF counterpart.

As you also stated, the CDF isn't a good option as a primary source of weapons. And that in its self is what imo makes purchasing L weapons a better option, unless someone actually likes doing daily for different mobs and not hunting at a high pace, doesn't mind the dead time in between. Or falls into Ermik's situation where he is able to kill the mobs he likes on a daily basis while getting MU and a reliable stream of tokens on monria. Or any other similar situation that I have not heard of.

My point about DPP is general, and it is not at all fixated strictly on these 2 weapons, I see someone say DPP is not that important. I say my opposing take on it.

If you have anything to add or say go for it, but i think there is enough info here as it is. And a lot of it repeated.

 

[Kerham]

be it tt X
be it MU 1,14
be it MU ext 1,06
ignoring base ext decay

(1,14x+(x/5)*1.06)/(6x/5)=(1,14x+0,212x)/1,2x=1,352x/1,2x=1,126

1,14-1,126= 0,014

That's what you "mitigate". 1,4%, in our case about 1 ped per weapon at the cost of sticking 212.

Effectiveness of extender starts at about 120% MU, but even then it depends alot on the impact of decay in turnover.

Ref dpp, it is a moot point in case of low-mid armatrix. They can't kill those mobs which matter, they're not there, plain and simple. Where they could, they're being complicated by other factors, such as travel cost/carrying an entire arsenal etc etc While I do agree on importance of dpp in general, in this case I find the point superfluous, seeing how 1. MU is not there to being with 2. ArMatrix series is irrelevant at the pace of one generation each 2 weeks or so and later on let's say 1, max 2 months. Over time they acumulate alot of MU spent and considering the whole situation is actually a cage.

I can use about 6 Lp-60 per day relatively easy, that's 180 MU (with extender, obviously). Daily. That amount of MU simply doesn't exist in the whole game, in the sense of being available to one hunter with max prostanding 68, on daily basis, with respective required market, difficulty of mobs etc. etc. etc. (which automatically implies it would be available to hundreds of hunters, is not like i have a star on my forehead).

As opposed to using korss400 13-14 years ago, which was costing 200% and going through one daily (177tt) was not a problem because, simply put, there was MU to be looted. And we're talking about a gun maxed at lvl 15 or something.

This forum is full to the windows of people being smartasses about this or that wording or dunno what niche observation, when the truth is glaring as a godam elephant in the middle of the room: there is no MU. There is no demand. There are hundreds of thousands turnover missing on AH and millions in terms of activity. The game is not dead, is just slowly turning into a stupid solitaire, where we all play cheap, at an eternal 99% return, the wet dream of MA, so nobody would ever withdraw again. F'this.

 

[ermik]

As opposed to using korss400 13-14 years ago, which was costing 200% and going through one daily (177tt) was not a problem because, simply put, there was MU to be looted. And we're talking about a gun maxed at lvl 15 or something.

AND , the fact that loot value was calculated out of damage put into the mob back then, making the production of damage as cheap as possible the number one prority. Making the MU better because of the demand for looted guns or components used to craft them. Today its not the same rules, tt in is the base for loot calc, with some minor twists. Making all MU you burn ín the process of getting loot-events, wasted.

 

[Crabby]

when the truth is glaring as a godam elephant in the middle of the room: there is no MU.

On Calypso from one species I looted 12 items from one type of mob that I can sell for about 1200 PED after markup all together. This item isn't even rare imho and the TT value of these items is so small most of the loot events had a TT value that could cover that. I could sell these easily, as to why I have not is simply because I will be using them. Another item far more common it dropped I was selling for 107-109% these were far far easier to sell. The same mob dropped me 2 of an (L) item I was able to sell for high MU. Given it's high TT value it was a more rare find, and for that reason I can't remember it's TT value nor MU but it was enough to get me thinking "Wtf people are really buying this for this price?" I would have to log in to check those values.

When I was hunting these i was anywhere between 15-20 levels below what I am now. I was rocking L weapons for my level at the time. a106 amp, but a104 is not expensive and not far behind. Complicated? No. I did not use armor, I did not even have to heal, not even right after the uncommon event of dying. My only trouble with these is that at that level I couldn't kill them as fast as I wanted to ?. So to say there is no MU at lower levels is more a matter of your personal experience than a matter of truth.

You want to talk about the items on the AH that go unsold for the most part, you're looking at the stuff everyone and their grandmothers are looting, a lot of people have a lot of these items in their storage, and if someone needs far more than they have they can buy in large numbers for close to nothing in MU. Youre also looking at stuff that very few people want.

MU is easier to find on other planets, and although I do think NI is dead in demand and i've never tried to sell any native items there... It is not the same for 3 other planets I have in mind.

Just because youre not out there getting it doesnt mean other people arent either. Thats what sets bums and deadbeats apart from the rest of the population.

is not like i have a star on my forehead

If youre gonna have anything on your forehead it finna be a big fat L ? ?

The game is not dead, is just slowly turning into a stupid solitaire, where we all play cheap, at an eternal 99% return, the wet dream of MA, so nobody would ever withdraw again. F'this

So you're just complaing then? got it


And as a disclaimer I don't pretend to play as efficiently and eco as possible. What I spend in PVP already throws me out of that category. Nor do I make an effort to profit from mu off every mob I hunt, more often than not I hunt the ones I don't as I am geared towards leveling up (ahem codex, missions) to unlock more experiences within the game. However, I am not oblivious to the fact that there is MU to profit from at lower levels as well, and the fact that the universe has a way of rewarding people who go out and seek something versus the people that fold their arms and say it is not possible. The latter will stay where they are. And I'll leave it at that.

 

[Kerham]

Just because youre not out there getting it doesnt mean other people arent either. Thats what sets bums and deadbeats apart from the rest of the population.

You don*t get it really because you didn't got to see those periods I am talking about. It was always the case that opportunities would be there for those exploring more/risking more/putting more effort etc.

I am talking about baseline. Hides, wools, oils, the basic stuff. Regular L drops if those would exist (e.g. a looted line which to compete armatrix for example). For majority of items to have MU, there has to be demand, respectively a genuine need. Something like gambling to be done on tailoring, as it used to be, instead of explo. Nanocubes to not exist and all bps to use either mined either hunted loots.

Economically speaking, you'd be tempted to say maybe that would make no difference, if everybody have access to those loots then they would have no MU. And this is simply not true, this happened only in recent years.

Everything needs to be more expensive for everybody, heck ammo would need to be crafted too. And then, if the baseline loot would be, say, 110% while the basic costs would be 112% (so still a pressure, still demanding to break even), then for sure would be plenty of space for other opportunities too.

If you look at an average inventory after, say, 3k peds hunted on atrox, almost all of it is tt trash/shrap (which is not so bad, but is purely personal, there is no economic interaction about it).

In the scenario I am picturing above, that inventory would be, say, some average 107% or something, and I mean actual 107%, with orders and AH turnover enough to feed hundreds of participants.

The proportional effort between various participants, the proportional effort between ul+big rings vs regular (L) would still be very different etc,

But that 7% difference would make a world of difference in regards to the economic systems themselves.

 

[arielos]

This spreadsheet "tool" is awesome!

Effective Efficiency Calculator

Calculator Effective Efficiency Calculator,EDIT THESE FIELDS in Gray,100% Efficiency Contribution: (%),7 For UL Items set markup to 100 Weapon,ArMatrix LR-20 (L),Total TT Cost (pec),11.546,Efficiency (%):,63.2,TT Cost (pec),15.016 Markup Cost (pec),0.1299,Decay (pec):,0.866,Markup Cost (pec),0.1299

docs.google.com

I found it here:

Since a lot of people seem to be pretty bad at math and are not sure which weapons are worth using, or are using something they think is amazing but after paying markup on everything they're better off using a swine deluxe at level 0, I've made a google sheets document that will allow people to just pop in some data from wiki and it will give an effective efficiency of the weapon after markup expenditure.

Just fill out the fields in the middle (most data is available on entropiawiki.com) and it will give you an equivalent efficiency as if you were using an UL weapon without markup. Please note I don't take any responsibility for the calculations, so just use it as a reference if you don't know what you're doing. Also data on wiki isn't guaranteed to be correct so please do your own testing if it doesn't look right.

I'm also working off the assumption that the effect of efficiency is linear and 0-100 is a 7% loot contribution still. I will do some tests on this next week to validate. It also assumes you're maxed on the items, if you're not.. well then that's your own problem.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HfCBayxEHoUWLoiLOy9h58buUn_FKf6POhdqYckhUM8/edit?usp=sharing

Thx to Hijacker27

I post it here just in case someone else read this thread.

 

[Scurvy Sityl]

Are we saying that the Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Delta amps are a waste of ped?

 

[arielos]

Are we saying that the Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Delta amps are a waste of ped?

I think so...

Except the mu% of the loot is high enough to cover it. IMHO rings is better solution...

 

[Ferial]

Are we saying that the Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Delta amps are a waste of ped?

They have their time and place. Everyday grinding isn't necessarily that (for everyone)