Help: Armatrix vs dayly token weapons

arielos

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Many people suggest us to use daily token weapons instead of armatrix because of the high mu%. By comparing two guns with almost the same dmg/sec, e.g. a CalyTrek CR Spirit Mk. 3 (L) with an Armatrix BC-40 (L) (with 114% mu) in Entropia wiki/Weapon Compare V2, we find that the latter has better dmg/pec and efficiency.

I understand that CalyTrek CR Spirit Mk. 3 (L) is maxed at lvl 40 and Armatrix BC-40 (L) at lvl 45, so someone can take advantage of the higher dmg/sec. But I think in the long run it doesn't worth...

Do you agree? Pls comment

If I have missunderstood anything pls correct me
 

Mathilda

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The 114% markup on armatrix is 1% of your total turnover lost to markup, to make up for that difference it would have to be 14% higher efficiency than the calytrek at 100% markup
 

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The 114% markup on armatrix is 1% of your total turnover lost to markup, to make up for that difference it would have to be 14% higher efficiency than the calytrek at 100% markup

In other words, the markup on the Armatrix gun outweighs the little efficiency boost (of about 5% I think) you get from it. It's more eco to use the token gun.
 

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The secret to both of them is NOT using them for SIB. I noticed both armatrix and the CDF daily guns had really bad crit hit and other stats right up until you are maxed on skills. I recommend using the next level down until well into the maxed area and well past the skill bonus. Then it makes sense to use the attachments. It also makes sense to me to use the extender on the CDF guns. As for the MU on ArMatrix I recommend finding a reasonable seller with a steady supply instead of the Auction House and there are several.
 

Katie Chalmers

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It depends on how you farm the tokens. If you take every mission and cycle PED on missions where you wouldn't normally cycle PED, then token guns can get very expensive. Each token costs you about 2-5ped to get once you account for Cycle losses, giving the 0.01pec tokens a very high markup.
Its best to incorporate your token farming with your hunts. only do the mission if you wanted to farm that creature anyway, and are still within your cycling budget. Double up on same creature dailys where you can, for example, I only do the Argonaut daily cave when I also get a Hunting 2 mission for Argonauts. Then make sure you check the mission terminal every 16 hours for bonus missions.
Doing tokens this way essentially makes the tokens free, and ending up with a weapon at the end of it which only really costs you universal ammo to cycle is a huge bonus.
 

arielos

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The 114% markup on armatrix is 1% of your total turnover lost to markup, to make up for that difference it would have to be 14% higher efficiency than the calytrek at 100% markup

This is the point, the 114% mu is included in the calculation, so armatrix bc-40 has better dmg/pec and efficiency than calytrec.
 

Katie Chalmers

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This is the point, the 114% mu is included in the calculation, so armatrix bc-40 has better dmg/pec and efficiency than calytrec.
D/pec isn't THAT important. Not important enough to pay 114% Markup on. Armatrix are good if you don't have another option at the DPS you want, that's about it. If you got the tokens use them on the gun.
 

arielos

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D/pec isn't THAT important. Not important enough to pay 114% Markup on. Armatrix are good if you don't have another option at the DPS you want, that's about it. If you got the tokens use them on the gun.

index.php


index.php


Armatrix bc-40 (L): Ammo cost 13.81 pec + decay cost 1.120 pec x 1.1412 = 15.088 pec. So, dmg/pec = 44.48/15.088=2.948

Calytrek-cr-spirit-mk-3-cdf (L): Ammo cost 16.73 pec + weapon decay 0.003 pec = 16.733 pec. So, dmg/pec = 48.65/16.733= 2.907

As I said the mu is included in the calculation. If we buy an Armatrix bc-40 with 114% mu, it has lower cost than calytrec. If the mu of Armatrix bc-40 was 132.9%, it would have the same cost with calytrec...

index.php


Of course the efficiency of Armatrix is better than Calytrec cdf edition
 

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" As I said the mu is included in the calculation. If we buy an Armatrix bc-40 with 114% mu, it has lower cost than calytrec. If the mu of Armatrix bc-40 was 132.9%, it would have the same cost with calytrec... "

Lower cost of what? Producing damage?

Its not the damage that determines loot returned, its tt input, eff% on gun and looter level.

Markup paid is lost.

With dante, the cdf is 63,4% and the AR has 67,2. That small diff is stupid to pay that kind of markup for....
 

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Those numbers don't really matter. With the armatrix you are paying an extra 12 ped in markup that is not going to get compensated in loot. You will not get an extra 12ped in loot from the efficiency boost. A higher d/pec will result in cheaper kills but also less loot return. This is 2.0.
You asked our advice, We all basically told you the same thing, but we are still being ignored.

I'm not anti-Armatrix, these guns have their place in the economy. but that place isn't eco hunting. They are stepping stones you use to max out a better weapon, or a low investment option for the occasional hunter. Their 65ish base efficiency just gives alot of players tunnel vision. Remember all those ISIS LBC weapons that you loot and put up for auction at TT+1? Use them instead. Then if you have tokens, trade them for a gun. Then after exhausting other options, use Armatrix.
 
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arielos

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To be honest I'm still sceptic :unsure: because I would expect a more mathematical explanation.

Thank you all for responding ☺️!
 

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While I agree on most of what you said I have to stop you right here because people will read it and take it as fact.

D/pec isn't THAT important. Not important enough to pay 114% Markup on.

Damage per pec is VERY important. It will determine how many mobs you are killing against someone with a differing dpp for the same amount of ped. There are many situations in which one would want to optimize their dpp and efficiency for better loot composition and more looting instances (more mu loot). A person that can kill 1000 mobs compared to a person that can kill 900 for the same amount of ped is automatically at an advantage and there is no way to downplay that.

Another point...

IMHO it is a flawed mentality to only look at what you have to lose in markup and not what you have to gain in markup. That is pretty much what im reading across the board here and it is very one dimensional. There are mobs that drop low TT and very, very high MU items. So if you factor in time, because we all have 24 hours in a day, it is possible that someone paying markup for faster access to weapons is producing more than someone prioritizing CDF variants and waiting for the tokens necessary to exchange for a weapon. So for people here to say that the MU is flat out lost, that is something that is determined by the decisions one makes after such a purchase.

Not to mention the experience and knowledge of which mobs drop what and at what frequency, gained from actually being able to go out and hunt more mobs for an extended period of time. Because you caaaan check the wiki, but at best would only give you a rough idea until you try and know for yourself and decide if it is worth it to you.

If we are referring only to TT, then you would be 100% right. But there is markup involved.

My thoughts on the matter.

As for the OP, given his responses I don't think he had any intention of changing his opinion when he made this thread.
 

Katie Chalmers

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While I agree on most of what you said I have to stop you right here because people will read it and take it as fact.



Damage per pec is VERY important. It will determine how many mobs you are killing against someone with a differing dpp for the same amount of ped. There are many situations in which one would want to optimize their dpp and efficiency for better loot composition and more looting instances (more mu loot). A person that can kill 1000 mobs compared to a person that can kill 900 for the same amount of ped is automatically at an advantage and there is no way to downplay that.

Another point...

IMHO it is a flawed mentality to only look at what you have to lose in markup and not what you have to gain in markup. That is pretty much what im reading across the board here and it is very one dimensional. There are mobs that drop low TT and very, very high MU items. So if you factor in time, because we all have 24 hours in a day, it is possible that someone paying markup for faster access to weapons is producing more than someone prioritizing CDF variants and waiting for the tokens necessary to exchange for a weapon. So for people here to say that the MU is flat out lost, that is something that is determined by the decisions one makes after such a purchase.

Not to mention the experience and knowledge of which mobs drop what and at what frequency, gained from actually being able to go out and hunt more mobs for an extended period of time. Because you caaaan check the wiki, but at best would only give you a rough idea until you try and know for yourself and decide if it is worth it to you.

If we are referring only to TT, then you would be 100% right. But there is markup involved.

My thoughts on the matter.

As for the OP, given his responses I don't think he had any intention of changing his opinion when he made this thread.

You have to read the second half on that statement, and take my post in context of this post.
D/pec isn't THAT important. Not important enough to pay 114% Markup on.
I didn't say D/pec isn't important at all, Just not important enough in this case. OP has a comparison of two guns and is trying to justify a 14% increase in mark-up for a ridiculously small gain in D/pec and efficiency. I'm trying to talk them out of this mindset.
 

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To be honest I'm still sceptic :unsure: because I would expect a more mathematical explanation.

Thank you all for responding ☺!

You don't need much more explanation than the fact that the 14% you pay in markup is not in anyway calculated in the TT value of your returns in both loot and skills. IF you happen to have the tokens to buy a CDF rifle for the level you want to hunt at, it is better to use that if you have no other desired use for the tokens.
 

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Those numbers don't really matter. With the armatrix you are paying an extra 12 ped in markup that is not going to get compensated in loot. You will not get an extra 12ped in loot from the efficiency boost. A higher d/pec will result in cheaper kills but also less loot return. This is 2.0.
Yeah...this is why I find myself dumbfounded every time I saw one of those RDI amps listed for 80 PED on the auction. They may have 98.5 eff, but you're paying 80 PED for a 1 PED TT item because...reasons?

Don't mean to go off-topic, but I would agree that paying out the ass for extra efficiency is silly unless you have extensive logs to show it's worth it...which I imagine no one does.
 

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I didn't say D/pec isn't important at all, Just not important enough in this case. OP has a comparison of two guns and is trying to justify a 14% increase in mark-up for a ridiculously small gain in D/pec and efficiency. I'm trying to talk them out of this mindset.


D/pec isn't THAT important. Not important enough to pay 114% Markup on.

It is quoted exactly how you wrote it. This is a blanket statement and can be misleading. He is not the only one that will be reading this remember. In the process of trying to convince someone that doesn't want to be convinced, you are making misleading statements and downplaying the potential one can have by supporting the weapons market over prioritizing daily rewards which can't even be produced in a large enough scale to make meaningful progress over a reasonable amount of time.

Give people simple, good, and clear information and let them do what they want with it. It's not your duty to change his mindset, or anyone's for that matter.
 

Katie Chalmers

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To be honest I'm still sceptic :unsure: because I would expect a more mathematical explanation.

Thank you all for responding ☺!

Ok lets do some maths.
Two side by side scenarios costing 1000 PED on a hunt. rounded to the nearest shot.
No amps/extenders/enhancers for simplification
Not counting looter professions.
BC-40
915.05ped ammo + 74.21 decay + 10.39 MU losses = 999.65 total cost
TT decay = 989.26 x average return rate of 94.536% = 935.21 TT return
Deficit = 64.44

Calytrek
999.78ped ammo + 0.18 decay + zero markup losses = 999.96 total cost
TT decay = 999.96 x average return rate of 94.137% = 941.34 TT return
Deficit =58.63

*Edited to change my baseline from ammo burn to overall PED cost*
 
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Katie Chalmers

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It is quoted exactly how you wrote it. This is a blanket statement and can be misleading. He is not the only one that will be reading this remember. In the process of trying to convince someone that doesn't want to be convinced, you are making misleading statements and downplaying the potential one can have by supporting the weapons market over prioritizing daily rewards which can't even be produced in a large enough scale to make meaningful progress over a reasonable amount of time.

Give people simple, good, and clear information and let them do what they want with it. It's not your duty to change his mindset, or anyone's for that matter.

If somebody takes my statement and misuses it then I cant do anything about that. I'm not disclaiming everything that I write, and I'm not claiming ultimate authority on my words.
This isn't a generic markup vs d/pec discussion. This is a direct comparison between two guns, This is exactly what the OP asked. My advice is for this discussion.
What do you mean it is not my duty to change his mindset? He asked for opinions. If my opinion disagrees with his then that's exactly what I will try to do. I never approached him, he asked us on a public forum.
Please stop trying to fight with me. I don't wish to have these arguments on this forum . Thank you.
 

arielos

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Alright, reading all the posts, I see the problem is that the mu% of Armatrix doesn't return in loot. So I'll keep this in mind. Thank you for your time...
 

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Alright, reading all the posts, I see the problem is that the mu% of Armatrix doesn't return in loot. So I'll keep this in mind. Thanking you for your time...

And it was that simple.

But I think in the long run it doesn't worth...

If it is worth it for you to go out of your way to grind daily tokens killing stuff you most likely will not want to kill, or waiting for dailies that are worth your time, for a level 40 rifle that I at that level could've burned in less than one day... to save 12 PED throughout the span of 1000 PED ammo cycle. Then yes.

But go that route and expect that rifle to be used towards completing the dailies too so you don't have to pay mark up. Be mindful of the losses from obtaining the daily tokens, and be mindful that some people are not that fortunate with bonus daily missions, I myself have never gotten one ?. Your progress will slow down.

Consider what your time is worth, and keep in mind that at level 40 you already have quite a bit of opportunities to seek markup. Think outside the box for a bit, and as much as being eco is good, some people take it to certain extremes. That 12 PED you save people buy packs of cigarettes worth 10x as much.... every day.

Those rifles are rewards for bonus missions. And it is borderline delusional to think someone is gonna dedicate that much time to obtaining them as primary source of weapons, it is not what it was intended for. Not to mention unrealistic. Even the ones that advise it don't do it themselves to such an extent.

There is more to the game than TT returns. There is MU, and more importantly enjoyment.


Please stop trying to fight with me. I don't wish to have these arguments on this forum . Thank you.

You're fighting with yourself, you're too emotional for this.
 
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ermik

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If it is worth it for you to go out of your way to grind daily tokens killing stuff you most likely will not want to kill, or waiting for dailies that are worth your time,

Think outside the box for a bit

I moved to Monria, only 4 mobs to grind, all ave Codex and Meta, all have dailies so each day i have my tokens from stuff i want to hunt.

Looting Fuses and Sonic Pulse, and tier 3 comps, while grinding towards the Horns mission.

Those rifles are rewards for bonus missions.

For people on Caly inside the box, yes.

There is more to the game than TT returns. There is MU, and more importantly enjoyment.

Amen to that, but we all see entertainment differently, i find enjoyment to beating the system with knowledge from learning how stuff reacts to different kind of interaction :)
 

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I moved to Monria, only 4 mobs to grind, all ave Codex and Meta, all have dailies so each day i have my tokens from stuff i want to hunt.

Looting Fuses and Sonic Pulse, and tier 3 comps, while grinding towards the Horns mission.



For people on Caly inside the box, yes.



Amen to that, but we all see entertainment differently, i find enjoyment to beating the system with knowledge from learning how stuff reacts to different kind of interaction :)

Then in your situation it all falls into place and i am happy to hear that you have that going for you honestly. But as you said we all see entertainment differently, some people perhaps don't have as much interest in monria, and calypso doesn't offer the reliable stream of tokens that monria does.

My issue with the advice here is that it was so fixated on TT returns, while considering the mu of a weapon and completely ignoring the potential to to gain mu with a weapon of that level at a better pace. Ignoring the availability difference of both rifles, and the time it takes to obtain CDF weapons appropriate for one's level of play.

I'm almost certain this person didn't get to where he is now grinding for daily weapons. So it doesn't make sense to try and force an idea that few people actually do themselves, down his throat when he has already been here a very long time. If he didn't do it then he's most likely not going to do it now unless his circumstances change like yours did and moves to monria. And there is nothing wrong with that. No sense in getting all butthurt over it.

To only look at TT returns is 'tunnel vision' as someone used earlier, in regards to if one weapon is a better option than the other.

Give people sufficient, simple, and good information and let them do what they want with it. To pick and choose specific traits just to appear correct, and getting worked up over someone trying to paint a bigger picture for people to make their own decisions.. its not right, and damn embarrassing imo.

And i am not referring to you, you've been alright.
 

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Then in your situation it all falls into place and i am happy to hear that you have that going for you honestly. But as you said we all see entertainment differently, some people perhaps don't have as much interest in monria, and calypso doesn't offer the reliable stream of tokens that monria does.

My issue with the advice here is that it was so fixated on TT returns, while considering the mu of a weapon and completely ignoring the potential to to gain mu with a weapon of that level at a better pace. Ignoring the availability difference of both rifles, and the time it takes to obtain CDF weapons appropriate for one's level of play.

I'm almost certain this person didn't get to where he is now grinding for daily weapons. So it doesn't make sense to try and force an idea that few people actually do themselves, down his throat when he has already been here a very long time. If he didn't do it then he's most likely not going to do it now unless his circumstances change like yours did and moves to monria. And there is nothing wrong with that. No sense in getting all butthurt over it.

To only look at TT returns is 'tunnel vision' as someone used earlier, in regards to if one weapon is a better option than the other.

Give people sufficient, simple, and good information and let them do what they want with it. To pick and choose specific traits just to appear correct, and getting worked up over someone trying to paint a bigger picture for people to make their own decisions.. its not right, and damn embarrassing imo.

And i am not referring to you, you've been alright.

The essence of it all is basicly to find what works for you and do it, if things arent working out then dont be afraid to try something different, you earn knowledge from mistakes and staying ignorant is not progress :)
 

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Yeah...this is why I find myself dumbfounded every time I saw one of those RDI amps listed for 80 PED on the auction. They may have 98.5 eff, but you're paying 80 PED for a 1 PED TT item because...reasons?

Don't mean to go off-topic, but I would agree that paying out the ass for extra efficiency is silly unless you have extensive logs to show it's worth it...which I imagine no one does.


I was wondering the same about the ELM weapons that cost 1 ped.
Why do people pay like 100 ped for a weapon worth 1 ped?
Especially in loot 2.0.
The 99 MU ped isnt returned in loot so why do people pay the same for an ELM weapons as the normal counterpart?
 

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I was wondering the same about the ELM weapons that cost 1 ped.
Why do people pay like 100 ped for a weapon worth 1 ped?
Especially in loot 2.0.
The 99 MU ped isnt returned in loot so why do people pay the same for an ELM weapons as the normal counterpart?

Yes, it makes no sense, from any standpoint.
 

arielos

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I was wondering the same about the ELM weapons that cost 1 ped.
Why do people pay like 100 ped for a weapon worth 1 ped?
Especially in loot 2.0.
The 99 MU ped isnt returned in loot so why do people pay the same for an ELM weapons as the normal counterpart?

This is the reason I started this thread...
I try to understand this behaviour...
 

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This is the reason I started this thread...
I try to understand this behaviour...

Sometimes the answer to a question we have a hard time answering is the simplest, some ppl still live with the memory that these guns made sense.
 

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Sometimes the answer to a question we have a hard time answering is the simplest, some ppl still live with the memory that these guns made sense.


Now we just fucked up the MU returns from events like migration.
If people finally figure out that an ELM gun is worth just 1 ped and not the value of the regular gun.

Sorry folks.
 
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