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Suggestion: Stop Markt up Manipulation

Manipulation yes or no

  • Yes stop it

  • No, i love MU manipulations

Results are only viewable after voting.
melee amp price increase probably not because of market manipulation, and actually because people are willing to pay for that price.

I'm tired of people calling every increase in price of items "market manipulation." It is so annoying.
 
Jhereg said:
melee amp price increase probably not because of market manipulation, and actually because people are willing to pay for that price.

I'm tired of people calling every increase in price of items "market manipulation." It is so annoying.
Click to expand...
i sold one for 1775 the other day it did jump to 2200

i know some people who have more then two of those laying in the storage

i know the market very well , and this is a manipulation my friend :)

you culd also explain me why sales trend goes down to 1666 ped while marktup goes up to 2600 + ?

avarge year mu is 1190 ped

monthly 1859 ped
week is 2123
and day is 2700

if you know a littlebit about markt up you can figure out by ur own that since 2021.05.25 the market gets boosted by someone:)
 
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its not manipulation. if someone is willing to pay that price, then more power to them. if you are pissed off because you need the item but don't want to pay the price, then learn to make your own.
 
My guess is a lot of retained covid players are now at the level of swinging stuff with melee 6s. Several months ago we saw similar trend happen with melee 4s, then they dipped, now they are going up again.
This is likely just supply and demand.
 
The market is free and there are indeed folks who will spend "whatever it takes" for something. You can't compete with people who don't need their money. This doesn't mean there is no reason for distrust. To detect manipulation, howver, it takes knowing who is selling to whom and if certain individuals or groups may be bouncing items back and forth, passing them around in circles, or conspiring to control the supply in something. To what extent MA can be moved to act against this at one time or another is anyone's guess, only one thing is for sure, that there will never be a shortage of crooks who try them and this can tire everyone out. The only thing you can really control is yourself and herein is my approach. If you can't make me like you, no business.
 
There are some obvious examples of market manipulation right now though. For example, Generic Fuse. Every day, there are sales for 100% or more under the lowest order price. Well, it's either manipulation or every day there is someone who doesn't understand how to use orders properly. Either one is kind of concerning.
 
Market manipulation is disallowed in Entropia. Actually, a better way to state it may be to say that some forms of deceitful auction behavior are disallowed in Entropia, and thus they become categorized as market manipulation, since "market manipulation" in general is defined in a very vague and context-dependent manner, and the latter statement better respects this policy-first explanatory order. In any case, at least insofar as this policy is fixed, I am not a fan of people engaging in market manipulation, as it gives an unfair advantage to players breaking the rules, while disadvantaging players who respect the rules. And make no mistake, market manipulation does occur in Entropia.

With that said, I have come to the belief that "anti-market-manipulation" discourse in the game as a whole vastly overestimates the impact, prevalence, and identifiability of market manipulation. For example, low transaction volume items are much more likely to be manipulated than high transaction volume items. If there are five consecutive sales of a Calypso Candy Cane at TT + 1000, that's a pretty clear red flag that someone may be trying to use Market Value to convey false information about price, but manipulating the Market Value of Vibrant Sweat, Oil, Garcen Lubricant, etc., is prohibitively costly, due to the enormous slippage costs a price maker in these markets would face. There are much better explanations than market manipulation when sudden price changes occur in high transaction volume markets, but unfortunately, the anti-market-manipulation discourse often focuses on high transaction volume markets where manipulation is least likely to occur, because these markets affect more people, and are thus more likely to get others angry. I did not check which category the amps fall into, so I'm not accusing the thread creator of this.

Additionally, it is very difficult for players to actually identify market manipulation, because they have such a naturally-limited perspective. MindArk can see whether multiple outlier sale prices for an item have been created by the same player or multiple players, whether a player creating outlier prices has attempted to capitalize on the Market Value history they have created by proceeding to conduct real transactions afterward at abnormal prices, whether they have admitted to manipulating prices in Private Messages, whether they display a pattern of disallowed behavior with respect to multiple items' Market Values. The player has access to none of this information. The role of the player should be to identify red flags of possible market manipulation, which MindArk can then further investigate to determine if market manipulation has actually occurred. In fact, this is probably one of the areas of the game where reporting potential policy infractions is least important, as MindArk in all likelihood has algorithm in place to detect red flag market behavior automatically, but if you think reporting suspicious market behavior will still help, it is perfectly reasonable to do so. What I hope we can do better at avoiding is the arrogant idea that we are responsible for more than spotting red flags, that we are in fact to act as the final arbiter of identifying and classifying market manipulation. We are not in a good position to do that; our perspective is too narrow.

The area in which this overconfidence is most apparent is probably ComPet Deed discourse. I hear about manipulation by ComPet Deed sellers all the time, and while I'm sure it exists, I will go as far as to say I have not once been able to find an example of a person who bought a ComPet Deed because the seller led them to believe they would receive payouts even after ComPet closed. This is just my anecdote, so I'm sure people will jump in now to counteranecdote with their experiences of meeting 25 such players per day, but I have slowly come to the belief that ComPet Deed manipulation, at least at the scale suggested, is an imaginary concern. When you actually ask people making alarming claims about ComPet Deed manipulation if they've known people who have been so duped, no one cites examples. Instead, it becomes apparent that the sales themselves constitute their evidence of manipulation, according to the following logic:

Premise 1) ComPet Deeds are being transacted
Premise 2) I do not see a rational reason for anyone to buy a ComPet Deed
Premise 3) If I do not see a rational reason for anyone to buy a ComPet Deed, then there is no rational reason for anyone to buy a ComPet Deed
____
Conclusion) Therefore, ComPet Deeds are being transacted only for irrational reasons.

The source of both mistake and undue arrogance is obviously Premise 3. I have even heard someone suggest that ComPet Deeds should be rendered untradeable, based on this exact, Dunning–Kruger-ridden logic. This widespread obliviousness to even the possibility that others might find utility in an item that the anti-market-manipulator's fundamental analysis missed is especially obnoxious to those of us who actually do want to buy and hold ComPet Deeds for any number of reasons, understanding full well that they no longer generate payouts. I think we should try to be more careful with how we word statements about market manipulation, or we risk doing equal or greater damage to the game than the market manipulation itself.
 
Market manipulation in game doubtless does take place on occasion, where 2 or more friends stockpile certain items and then trade items between them at inflated prices to push the market higher, they then dump their reserve stock in at the higher price. It is a high risk strategy and easily overcome if buyers hold their nerve and simply refuse to pay unreasonably high prices. The seller loses their fee and is forced to relist, hopefully at a more sensible price.

However it is a free market economy, which means we can each offer items for sale at a price of our choosing. Whether a customer decides that is a price they are prepared to pay is up to them. What seems ludicrously high to you or I, may seem very reasonable to someone who has waited ages to even find that item for sale. That is not market manipulation that is a free economy working as it should.

Support the shops in game, time spent browsing the malls and solo shops can turn up some interesting bargains, as most shop owners price below AH to attract trade. Take care however as this is by no means a certainty.

Remember the old adage - Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware)
 
Not easy to point to market manipulation when not considering high divergence in value wrt tier of items or qr of blueprints, e. g.

:dunno:
 
People really need to learn the difference between market manipulation and free market swings.

have there been multiple transactions of melee 6 at 7k to bump the average price up? That would be manipulative, but people paying 25% more for an item than average because there are no others available is part of a healthy economy.
 
read this first if you want to understand what a market manipulation is , thanks

FYI


Market manipulation is a type of market abuse where there is a deliberate attempt to interfere with the free and fair operation of the market; the most blatant of cases involve creating false or misleading appearances with respect to the price of, or market for, a product, security or commodity.

Examples​

Pools​

Agreements, often written, among a group of traders to delegate authority to a single manager to trade in a specific stock for a work period of time and then to share in the resulting profits or losses.[5] In Australia section 1041B prohibits pooling.


Churning​

When a trader places both buy and sell orders at about the same price. The increase in activity is intended to attract additional investors, and increase the price.


Stock bashing​

This scheme is usually orchestrated by savvy online message board posters (a.k.a. "Bashers") who make up false and/or misleading information about the target company in an attempt to get shares for a cheaper price. This activity, in most cases, is conducted by posting libelous posts on multiple public forums. The perpetrators sometimes work directly for unscrupulous Investor Relations firms who have convertible notes that convert for more shares the lower the bid or ask price is; thus the lower these Bashers can drive a stock price down by trying to convince shareholders they have bought a worthless security, the more shares the Investor Relations firm receives as compensation. Immediately after the stock conversion is complete and shares are issued to the Investor Relations firm, consultant, attorney or similar party, the basher/s then become friends of the company and move quickly to ensure they profit on a classic Pump & Dump scheme to liquidate their ill-gotten shares. (see P&D)


Pump and dump​

A pump and dump scheme is generally part of a more complex grand plan of market manipulation on the targeted security. The perpetrators (usually stock promoters) convince company affiliates and large position non-affiliates to release shares into a free trading status as "Payment" for services for promoting the security. Instead of putting out legitimate information about a company the promoter sends out bogus e-mails (the "Pump") to millions of unsophisticated investors (Sometimes called "Retail Investors") in an attempt to drive the price of the stock and volume to higher points. After they accomplish both, the promoter sells their shares (the "Dump") and the stock price falls, taking all the duped investors' money with it.


Runs​

When a group of traders create activity or rumours in order to drive the price of a security up. An example is the Guinness share-trading fraud of the 1980s. In the US, this activity is usually referred to as painting the tape.[6] Runs may also occur when trader(s) are attempting to drive the price of a certain share down, although this is rare. (see Stock Bashing)


Ramping (the market)​

Actions designed to artificially raise the market price of listed securities and give the impression of voluminous trading in order to make a quick profit.[7]


Wash trade​

In a wash trade the manipulator sells and repurchases the same or substantially the same security for the purpose of generating activity and increasing the price. This is more involved than churning because the orders are actually fulfilled.


Bear raid​

In a bear raid there is an attempt to push the price of a stock down by heavy selling or short selling.[8]


Lure and squeeze​

This works with a company that is very distressed on paper, with impossibly high debt, consistently high annual losses but very few assets, making it look as if bankruptcy must be imminent. The stock price gradually falls as people new to the stock short it on the basis of the poor outlook for the company, until the number of shorted shares greatly exceeds the total number of shares that are not held by those aware of the lure and squeeze scheme (call them "people in the know"). In the meantime, people in the know increasingly purchase the stock as it drops to lower and lower prices. When the short interest has reached a maximum, the company announces it has made a deal with its creditors to settle its loans in exchange for shares of stock (or some similar kind of arrangement that leverages the stock price to benefit the company), knowing that those who have short positions will be squeezed as the price of the stock sky-rockets. Near its peak price, people in the know start to sell, and the price gradually falls back down again for the cycle to repeat.


Quote stuffing​

Quote stuffing is made possible by high-frequency trading programs that can execute market actions with incredible speed. However, high-frequency trading in and of itself is not illegal. The tactic involves using specialized, high-bandwidth hardware to quickly enter and withdraw large quantities of orders in an attempt to flood the market, thereby gaining an advantage over slower market participants.[9]


Cross-market manipulation​

Cross-market manipulation occurs when a trader trades in one market for the purpose of manipulating the price of an asset in another market, capitalizing off the price-moving effects thus generated, instead of with the bona fide intent of profiting off the trade itself.[10]


Cross-product manipulation​

A type of manipulation possible when financial instruments are settled based on benchmarks set by the trading of physical commodities, for example in United States Natural Gas Markets. The manipulator takes a large long (short) financial position that will benefit from the benchmark settling at a higher (lower) price, then trades in the physical commodity markets at such a large volume as to influence the benchmark price in the direction that will benefit their financial position.


Spoofing (finance)​

Spoofing is a disruptive algorithmic trading entity employed by traders to outpace other market participants and to manipulate commodity markets. Spoofers feign interest in trading futures, stocks and other products in financial markets creating an illusion of exchange pessimism in the futures market when many offers are being cancelled or withdrawn, or false optimism or demand when many offers are being placed in bad faith. Spoofers bid or offer with intent to cancel before the orders are filled. The flurry of activity around the buy or sell orders is intended to attract other high-frequency traders (HFT) to induce a particular market reaction such as manipulating the market price of a security. Spoofing can be a factor in the rise and fall of the price of shares and can be very profitable to the spoofer who can time buying and selling based on this manipulation.


Price-fixing​

A very simple type of fraud where the principals who publish a price or indicator conspire to set it falsely and benefit their own interests. The Libor scandal for example, involved bankers setting the Libor rate to benefit their trader's portfolios or to make certain entities appear more creditworthy than they were.


High closing (finance)​

High closing is an attempt to manipulate the price of a security at the end of trading day to ensure that it closes higher than it should. This is usually achieved by putting in manipulative trades close to closing.


Cornering the market​

In cornering the market the manipulators buy sufficiently large amount of an asset, often a commodity, so they can control the price creating in effect a monopoly. For example, the brothers Nelson Bunker Hunt and William Herbert Hunt attempted to corner the world silver markets in the late 1970s and early 1980s, at one stage holding the rights to more than half of the world's deliverable silver.[11] During the Hunts' accumulation of the precious metal, silver prices rose from $11 an ounce in September 1979 to nearly $50 an ounce in January 1980.[12] Silver prices ultimately collapsed to below $11 an ounce two months later,[12] much of the fall occurring on a single day now known as Silver Thursday, due to changes made to exchange rules regarding the purchase of commodities on margin.[13]
 
People simply seeing an uptrend in an asset they have, listing it for 10% above current MU and getting lucky enough to have it sold isn’t manipulation though. And that’s all I think we are seeing.
If you can see the same avatars continuously listing successful bids over and over than maybe, but this isn’t a set thing either. I have personally bought and sold the same amp probably about 3-4 times over the last 6 months as my gear changed and I switched tack. Often I use this fluctuating market to my advantage to how I decide to kit out. I could be deemed a fixer but I assure you I’m not.
 
PreyNaika said:
read this first if you want to understand what a market manipulation is , thanks

FYI


Market manipulation is a type of market abuse where there is a deliberate attempt to interfere with the free and fair operation of the market; the most blatant of cases involve creating false or misleading appearances with respect to the price of, or market for, a product, security or commodity.
Click to expand...

What's important to realize is that this definition contains several vague terms which have to be further fleshed out to yield anything useful. For instance, what constitutes market abuse, interference, and fair operation is as open to interpretation as market manipulation itself. These concepts don't exist in a vacuum; they are given operational definitions for use in a specific jurisdiction, with regard to a specific security type(s), and under specific, well-defined boundaries. The listed examples are merely examples, which may be why the Wikipedia article you've pasted this from warns via template message, "The examples and perspective in this article may not represent a worldwide view of the subject." If simply applying the list you pasted verbatim to Entropia is what you mean when you ask if we should stop market manipulation in Entropia, then my answer would change to "no, I love [at least some types of] market manipulation." I take no issue whatsoever, for example, with a society pooling together to buy or sell larger item stacks on the auction through a delegate.
 
PreyNaika said:
read this first if you want to understand what a market manipulation is , thanks

FYI


Market manipulation is a type of market abuse where there is a deliberate attempt to interfere with the free and fair operation of the market; the most blatant of cases involve creating false or misleading appearances with respect to the price of, or market for, a product, security or commodity.

Examples​

Pools​

Agreements, often written, among a group of traders to delegate authority to a single manager to trade in a specific stock for a work period of time and then to share in the resulting profits or losses.[5] In Australia section 1041B prohibits pooling.


Churning​

When a trader places both buy and sell orders at about the same price. The increase in activity is intended to attract additional investors, and increase the price.


Stock bashing​

This scheme is usually orchestrated by savvy online message board posters (a.k.a. "Bashers") who make up false and/or misleading information about the target company in an attempt to get shares for a cheaper price. This activity, in most cases, is conducted by posting libelous posts on multiple public forums. The perpetrators sometimes work directly for unscrupulous Investor Relations firms who have convertible notes that convert for more shares the lower the bid or ask price is; thus the lower these Bashers can drive a stock price down by trying to convince shareholders they have bought a worthless security, the more shares the Investor Relations firm receives as compensation. Immediately after the stock conversion is complete and shares are issued to the Investor Relations firm, consultant, attorney or similar party, the basher/s then become friends of the company and move quickly to ensure they profit on a classic Pump & Dump scheme to liquidate their ill-gotten shares. (see P&D)


Pump and dump​

A pump and dump scheme is generally part of a more complex grand plan of market manipulation on the targeted security. The perpetrators (usually stock promoters) convince company affiliates and large position non-affiliates to release shares into a free trading status as "Payment" for services for promoting the security. Instead of putting out legitimate information about a company the promoter sends out bogus e-mails (the "Pump") to millions of unsophisticated investors (Sometimes called "Retail Investors") in an attempt to drive the price of the stock and volume to higher points. After they accomplish both, the promoter sells their shares (the "Dump") and the stock price falls, taking all the duped investors' money with it.


Runs​

When a group of traders create activity or rumours in order to drive the price of a security up. An example is the Guinness share-trading fraud of the 1980s. In the US, this activity is usually referred to as painting the tape.[6] Runs may also occur when trader(s) are attempting to drive the price of a certain share down, although this is rare. (see Stock Bashing)


Ramping (the market)​

Actions designed to artificially raise the market price of listed securities and give the impression of voluminous trading in order to make a quick profit.[7]


Wash trade​

In a wash trade the manipulator sells and repurchases the same or substantially the same security for the purpose of generating activity and increasing the price. This is more involved than churning because the orders are actually fulfilled.


Bear raid​

In a bear raid there is an attempt to push the price of a stock down by heavy selling or short selling.[8]


Lure and squeeze​

This works with a company that is very distressed on paper, with impossibly high debt, consistently high annual losses but very few assets, making it look as if bankruptcy must be imminent. The stock price gradually falls as people new to the stock short it on the basis of the poor outlook for the company, until the number of shorted shares greatly exceeds the total number of shares that are not held by those aware of the lure and squeeze scheme (call them "people in the know"). In the meantime, people in the know increasingly purchase the stock as it drops to lower and lower prices. When the short interest has reached a maximum, the company announces it has made a deal with its creditors to settle its loans in exchange for shares of stock (or some similar kind of arrangement that leverages the stock price to benefit the company), knowing that those who have short positions will be squeezed as the price of the stock sky-rockets. Near its peak price, people in the know start to sell, and the price gradually falls back down again for the cycle to repeat.


Quote stuffing​

Quote stuffing is made possible by high-frequency trading programs that can execute market actions with incredible speed. However, high-frequency trading in and of itself is not illegal. The tactic involves using specialized, high-bandwidth hardware to quickly enter and withdraw large quantities of orders in an attempt to flood the market, thereby gaining an advantage over slower market participants.[9]


Cross-market manipulation​

Cross-market manipulation occurs when a trader trades in one market for the purpose of manipulating the price of an asset in another market, capitalizing off the price-moving effects thus generated, instead of with the bona fide intent of profiting off the trade itself.[10]


Cross-product manipulation​

A type of manipulation possible when financial instruments are settled based on benchmarks set by the trading of physical commodities, for example in United States Natural Gas Markets. The manipulator takes a large long (short) financial position that will benefit from the benchmark settling at a higher (lower) price, then trades in the physical commodity markets at such a large volume as to influence the benchmark price in the direction that will benefit their financial position.


Spoofing (finance)​

Spoofing is a disruptive algorithmic trading entity employed by traders to outpace other market participants and to manipulate commodity markets. Spoofers feign interest in trading futures, stocks and other products in financial markets creating an illusion of exchange pessimism in the futures market when many offers are being cancelled or withdrawn, or false optimism or demand when many offers are being placed in bad faith. Spoofers bid or offer with intent to cancel before the orders are filled. The flurry of activity around the buy or sell orders is intended to attract other high-frequency traders (HFT) to induce a particular market reaction such as manipulating the market price of a security. Spoofing can be a factor in the rise and fall of the price of shares and can be very profitable to the spoofer who can time buying and selling based on this manipulation.


Price-fixing​

A very simple type of fraud where the principals who publish a price or indicator conspire to set it falsely and benefit their own interests. The Libor scandal for example, involved bankers setting the Libor rate to benefit their trader's portfolios or to make certain entities appear more creditworthy than they were.


High closing (finance)​

High closing is an attempt to manipulate the price of a security at the end of trading day to ensure that it closes higher than it should. This is usually achieved by putting in manipulative trades close to closing.


Cornering the market​

In cornering the market the manipulators buy sufficiently large amount of an asset, often a commodity, so they can control the price creating in effect a monopoly. For example, the brothers Nelson Bunker Hunt and William Herbert Hunt attempted to corner the world silver markets in the late 1970s and early 1980s, at one stage holding the rights to more than half of the world's deliverable silver.[11] During the Hunts' accumulation of the precious metal, silver prices rose from $11 an ounce in September 1979 to nearly $50 an ounce in January 1980.[12] Silver prices ultimately collapsed to below $11 an ounce two months later,[12] much of the fall occurring on a single day now known as Silver Thursday, due to changes made to exchange rules regarding the purchase of commodities on margin.[13]
Click to expand...

If you are going to copy and paste wikipedia you could at least cite your source.
 
ProActive Mango said:
This happens when Mindark dont add more UL gear to the game, so many new players but no more gear...

Yeah and none wants to use limitted gear.
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Oh really? Well when I started around 14-15 years ago, there was NO (L) gears, NO vehicles and all weapons which was you had to be lvl 100 to max.

The market is still flooded with this lvl 100 guns which are cheap to buy and have low efficiency and high durability, you will miss alot of shots if you are not level 100 in laser, blp or plasma.
But this is how it was back then, why should players have it easier to play nowadays?
 
Pelleman said:
Oh really? Well when I started around 14-15 years ago, there was NO (L) gears, NO vehicles and all weapons which was you had to be lvl 100 to max.

The market is still flooded with this lvl 100 guns which are cheap to buy and have low efficiency and high durability, you will miss alot of shots if you are not level 100 in laser, blp or plasma.
But this is how it was back then, why should players have it easier to play nowadays?
Click to expand...

Because of loot 2.0?
 
Pelleman said:
Na, not reason enough.
Click to expand...

Meaning when we literally have parameters that determine our returns compared to loot 1.0 it is still viable to compare 2 drastically different loot mechanics? The availability of those old-school LVL 100 weapons is high because they are trash and belongs to TT (with a handful of exceptions). Wake up it is not 14y ago anymore
 
allarom said:
Meaning when we literally have parameters that determine our returns compared to loot 1.0 it is still viable to compare 2 drastically different loot mechanics? The availability of those old-school LVL 100 weapons is high because they are trash and belongs to TT (with a handful of exceptions). Wake up it is not 14y ago anymore
Click to expand...

Oh you must be rich if you tt for example a DOA SH which still are a kickass rifle, with loot 1.0 technology, low effi, but a rifle I still have my best loot with even after loot 2.0 was introduced.
One month I got 3x10k loots with that gun and then a loot 2.0 weapons dropped for me, cannot complain there.

As taggers I have two different loot 1.0 weapons with low effi, lvl 100 to max but no way to put in tt.

Its all in the skills, wake up.
 
People finaly realize how powerfull melee is :) With no new amps introduced the price will only go up more...
 
Pelleman said:
Oh you must be rich if you tt for example a DOA SH which still are a kickass rifle, with loot 1.0 technology, low effi, but a rifle I still have my best loot with even after loot 2.0 was introduced.
One month I got 3x10k loots with that gun and then a loot 2.0 weapons dropped for me, cannot complain there.

As taggers I have two different loot 1.0 weapons with low effi, lvl 100 to max but no way to put in tt.

Its all in the skills, wake up.
Click to expand...

Dude, you should know better, you cycle like 3M per year and lose 20k per every million while using old school gun vs ~90% efficiency- it is not all about skills for years anymore and those uber hofs become pretty irrelevant in the long run
 
People like to complaining about everything they will never be satisfied. Before they are complaining about Unlimited guns ''WE NEED TO GET'' Limited guns we cannot afford Unlimited IMPMK2 , OR MM is expensive. Mindark give to you Limited version now are u looking for Unlimited again. I wish you only that you go and take all Teleports on FOOT. To many cry babies here. Manipulate prices is ok its FREE MARKET if you don't like it don't BUY IT !
If you cannot afford some of today guns how you can aford lets say new ones in future.
To Mindark dont listen players Suggestion here make the game that is unique.
 
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allarom said:
Dude, you should know better, you cycle like 3M per year and lose 20k per every million while using old school gun vs ~90% efficiency- it is not all about skills for years anymore and those uber hofs become pretty irrelevant in the long run
Click to expand...
Oh wow , should I know better? Was I complaining?
Im doing good thx, and even if I earned even more dollares this is just a game for me, im not planning being rich from a game, just having fun and playing for free.
 
Pelleman said:
Oh wow , should I know better? Was I complaining?
Im doing good thx, and even if I earned even more dollares this is just a game for me, im not planning being rich from a game, just having fun and playing for free.
Click to expand...

Well everybody does not have the same mindset for shouting out "But this is how it was back then, why should players have it easier to play nowadays?" when everything is different nowadays
 
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