Possible solutions to problems associated with botting/macros

[GeorgeSkywalker]

This thread is a continuation of this thread:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...ould-botting-use-of-macros-be-allowed.299251/

The above thread is for discussing pros and cons of allowing botting/macroing.


This thread is for discussing possible solutions to the cons identified in the above thread or mitigating the cons. I have copied the table from that thread here so that we can more easily refer to it. Note I have numbered the Pros and also labelled the Cons. The numbering/labelling does not indicate any level of importance but are there so that we can refer to them more easily in discussions i.e. instead of writing MU is squeezed towards zero every time you want to discuss it, you can instead refer to it as C.

Note this thread is not about banning botting or enforcing the current MA stance of botting is not allowed. If your solution to botting is along these lines then please create your own thread. As far as this thread is concerned MA cannot or do not want to go down that route and hence in this thread we are not interested in going down that route.

The above linked thread is still open and your welcome to add more Pros and Cons in that thread and I'll update the table in both threads accordingly.

Table of pros & cons of botting/macroing
Pros	Cons (or negative issues)
1) Allowing botting would be fairer	A) massive unfairness in having rules which are not enforced, so we should move out of this current situation for sure.
2) MA does not really have an incentive to reduce macro usage as their bottom line comes from absorbing ped from cycling. If MA allows botting/macroing then they would increase their profits. Hence it is imperative for MA to actually do a rule change and allow botting/macroing. Also leads to more game development as MA would have more income.	B) MA official line is they do not condone the use of Macros or any form of automated gameplay. However, use of macros and bots is already prevalent amongst the player base.
3) If it is allowed, it needs to be stated that way, so everyone have same and fair chances.	C) MU squeezed towards zero
4) If allowed could be potential marketing opportunities for the game	D) the game itself is structured to encourage some form of automation.
5) If allowed easier to develop the game as MA would not be hindered in trying to detect and deal with botters. Could concentrate their efforts on actual game development.	E) If botting is not allowed then it needs to be strictly enforced. However, it is not easy to detect even more so prove 100% that they are botting.
6) Opportunities for MA to develop automated play utilities and tools that could lead more profitability	F) MA cannot reveal how they go about detecting botting or admit defeat.
7) Better quality of life for players as they can participate in the game into auto mode and be doing something else in real life	G) Anyone who uses automated play will skill up faster as their avatar could be playing when they are doing something else. Also they can be playing 24/7. This would be the case for both scenarios if allowed and not allowed.
8) ethically the right thing to do	H) Automated play in the current situation where it is not officially allowed can lead to hinderances in social interaction. Social interaction is a big component in massively mutiplayer games.
9) current situation is unsustainable	I) It's possible if a player doesn't know what they are doing could "loose" peds faster
10) healthier for players both physically and mentally	J) could auto mode players be exploited by other players?
11) healthier for MA	K) In current situation MA may not be able to prove someone is botting. This could explain their reluctance to take action. Court cases can be lengthy and very costly.
12) If MA develop some simple new features could increase social interaction. It's possible social interaction may increase without them as majority of EU players are mature.	L) MA cannot fully condone automated play for public perception reasons? (some may perceive as negative and others as positive)
13) If MA do it right their reputation would increase among the player base	M) Could players quit seeing others botting? (this seems non sensical to me perhaps people mean this if botting is not allowed but see it going on will make them quit)
14) If botting is allowed everyone has the opportunity to bot 24/7 and hence access the same loot opportunities. (Note there could be in game changes implemented that address this and arguably promote a more natural playstyle)	N) The issue of new players not being able to catch up to 24/7 botters. This is true when botting is not allowed and also true when botting is allowed. The ones who started botting 24/7 first are likely to always stay ahead.
	O) If botting is not allowed 24/7 botters can negatively impact legit players loot.
	P) if botting is not allowed legit players cannot compete with the botters hence will reduce their gameplay or quit as it doesn't make sense for them to play or even try to compete.
	Q) if botting is not allowed and effectively enforced it may not stop the 24/7 botters they will simply revert to using multiple people taking turns to play on their account hence able to play 24/7 thereby rendering the enforcement futile.
	R) If nothing is done about botting it will have a negative impact on the game, the players and MA as well.
	S) The use of multiple accounts that share gear could circumvent new game mechanics e.g. sleep mechanics
	T) Some bots may negatively impact MA's profits?

Finally please use the template below in the next post to write your solutions. Thanks.

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

Solution Template
(Optional): [Brief title/description of the solution]

Details of the solution:


Links to which Cons your solution solves or addresses:


Links to which Pros your solution addresses:
(Optional)

Miscellaneous points:
(Optional)

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

Solution Template
Sleeping mechanics

Details of the solution:
Allow everyone to bot, macro or use any other form or automated play. However with the following caveat. After a certain number of hours in a day (these don't have to be contingous) of game play your avatar gets extremely tired. When that happens your loot is severely impacted e.g. you get no mark up and TT value of all loots is severely reduced e.g. below 50% and no chance of ever getting that loss back. This nerf after exceeding the number of permitted hours has to be severe so that no one would even contemplate botting beyond the allowed number of hours. Also some of your stats could be diminished severely e.g. agility drops by 95%, HP reduced by 95%, your Evade and Dodge also nerfed by 95%. Again these temporary nerfs have to be severe to discourage botting or even playing normally beyond that point.

Also to recover your stats and nerfs to loot you have to make your avatar go to sleep for a number of hours. Once your avatar has slept the required number of hours they can play again without any restrictions as they are fully replenished.

How sleep is implemented is upto MA. Could be something like this. Could have tents that can be used to sleep out in the field. This would be necessary because not everyone has an apartment/house etc. The tent I'm thinking could be like a basic cheap option without any buff's. This would be especially useful if your off planet from the planet you normally spend your time at and where your unlikely to have an apartment.

Estates like apartments and houses could have a ladder where the more useful buffs are on the more expensive estates. So apartment would be at the lower end and house higher up with bigger house having are more useful buff. Also smaller apartment smaller buff and bigger apartment more comparatively more useful buff.

The number of hours allowed of play time would be a balancing issue for MA to decide but I'm thinking something like 10 hours could be workable. Note the lower the number of allowed hours the more point C is addressed i.e. the higher the MU of loot would go. However would be less of a profit for MA (assuming they make more profit the more we play). So they would need to set this at a level that is a trade off between their profits and also a tradeoff between MU for us, since these two are diametrically opposite to each other.


Links to which Cons your solution solves or addresses:
A, B, C, D, G, K, M, O, P, Q, R

Links to which Pros your solution addresses:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14

Miscellaneous points:
This solution addresses the main concern of players which seems to be MU of loot. At the same time it makes it fairer for everyone as everyone is allowed to bot. This would not require any policing or enforcing hence all round better solution for MA and players.

It also solves some other peculiarities e.g. Q as there would be no purpose in botting 24/7 as that would be costly and always result in substanstial losses.

As a bonus or side affect of this approach it would give more purpose to estates like apartments.

Generally it would be a natural addition to the game i.e. just like we need to sleep and rest in real life so would our counter parts - our avatars.

 

[jwestonmoss]

Sleep mechanic is way too punitive. May as well boot them and block their logins for that period. Nobody is going to cycle at a 50% guaranteed loss.

A solution that makes everyone happy is way easier than this.

Add in a simple but randomly-generated minigame that can occur at a random time (within limits) that is too difficult for bots to effectively solve. if you successfully complete the minigame you are awarded with something that is uniquely from that activity. Could be anything. "Activity Tokens" that go to a vendor with unique things. Or some kind of unique crafting material that is a required input for one or more new and useful BPs.

this incentivizes (or at least compensates, if you want to look at it that way) active play to help offset the disadvantage of macro-users.

i have put forward this solution before, because it is low-friction. botters have no right to complain, because they are not impacted. MA doesn't lose the cycle these botters provide. active players get a little something that encourages them and keeps them from feeling too upset/put-off about botters.

some people might think "who cares how those people feel", but it seems clear that MA hopes to bring in a new crowd of players with UE5 hits. if the game seems filled with botters a lot won't stay around unless they think that active play is objectively better in a way that also doesn't make the botters all quit.

hopefully you can see the dynamic i'm trying to promote here. there's no perfect solution. but an incremental change in the right direction is possible

 

[Vill]

Add in a simple but randomly-generated minigame that can occur at a random time (within limits) that is too difficult for bots to effectively solve.

Maybe it's not a bad idea somehow to reward active players, but do you imagine how many complaints would come if these mini games start to pop up in the middle of fighting big mobs? The way how EU work, mobs don't stop to attack you when you play mini game. Or mini game popping up in the middle of PvP fight and many other cases.
Also complaints that sweaters, fruit walkers, etc. are rewarded for not doing ped input.
Other thing is I hardly imagine something that would be easy to solve for real person and hard for bot. Bots already can do crazy things and they will get better and better in time. How it really feels that this might be just annoying for real persons and just another bonus for good bots.
Overall if something like this will get introduced one day, there should be an option to also turn it off.

 

[Photon]

When that happens your loot is severely impacted e.g. you get no mark up and TT value of all loots is severely reduced e.g. below 50% and no chance of ever getting that loss back

I stopped reading at this. You just want to punish people. That's hardly a solution.

 

[Pi-]

Botting is here to stay. Anyone that wants to "reward active gameplay" is truly short sighted. The outcome will be that MA loses money by adjusting automation or "actvie gameplay", it simply will reduce their income.

If botting / automated gameplay is upsetting or uncomfortable for anyone I suggest you take a step back and try to see the entire situation, not just your circumstances.

I myself was somewhat against automation and I took a year long break to really asses the situation and realize that it has to exist and its truly selfish to expect everyone to play at keyboard 100% of the time.

If MA adds some type of mechanic that stops botting or automation I will be very surprised and I think they had something like that planned for UE5 but they changed direction.

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

Thought some more about the sleep mechanics idea. Some implications or further thoughts around sleep mechanics idea:

- Affect on casual players and the economy. Would casual players stop using L items and go for unlimited? How many would make use of botting? botting may allow them to play more hence more profits for MA? groups of casuals and their reasons for being casual? is it due to time? or personal preference? etc these are important as it would impact their choices. If for example a player is a casual player due to how much the can or want to spend then they are unlikely to make use of botting. Also in the end I think the prices of limited and unlimited will balance itself out. If many casuals decide to move to unlimited for example then L prices are likely to be cheaper and hence more attractive to use. Also some people don't want to pay a large amount for an unlimited item upfront hence why they use L and would probably continue to use L.

- Affect on landgrabs- would need to plan in advance when you play and hence sleep in game so that you are not sleeping at the day and time of landgrab.

- Since everyone will be able to use bots and the time limitations when you can use them their importance or advantage would be negated i.e. more people are likely to play without using a bot. You would effectively have a choice to play at the keyboard or use the bot. Most people would use the bot when they have something else to do in real life and can't commit to being in game. It would even the playing field.

- Sleep cubicles could be introduced. With some kind of lore e.g. when entering such a cubicle you go into another dimension or plane for the selected amount of time. Hence would allow for multiple people to enter a cubicle. Sleep cubicle SC-10 could hold ten avatars sleeping, sc-50 fifty avatars, sc-100 hundred avatars. Can only be placed in estates. Estate could allow public access and there could be charges involved in their usage e.g. rent. So anyone who doesn't have an apartment can access a sleep cubicle ideally at a low cost. Could be useful for economy...There could be limited and unlimited versions. This could be some very nice and profitable new loot. Each planet partner could decide how they want to go about releasing these valuable cubicles. Could be tokenised for example, where you need to collect x tokens and trade them for a cubicle from a vendor. Could be a straightforward item drop. Would be upto each planet partner to decide how they want to go about it. These items would be highly desirable and profitable and hence something new for us to aim for. Hence generate more income for each planet partner.

- The implementation of the loot nerf when a player exceeds 10 hours could be a straightforward tax like on LA's. This tax would be very punitive e.g. 50% of every single mob loot. This would be easy implement could use the same LA tax mechanics. The proceeds of this tax could go into a special pool that everyone can access via globals, hof's etc. This would improve loots of avatars.

- The whole purpose of sleep mechanic being punitive is to discourage us from exceeding our play time allowance. It needs to be punitive otherwise it won't have the desired affect.

- Also the sleep mechanics idea doesn't ban automation but the opposite it allows everyone to use it. Within desired limits.

- Since the sleep mechanic would be so punitive the game would need to give plenty of warnings e.g. make use of the location banner that appears in the middle of the screen when you leave a mayhem instance. This banner would warn you about your play time allowance and loot nerf. Could be a warning and hour before, then every fifteen minutes. When fifteen minutes left every 5 minutes. When five minutes left every minute. Could also be a system message as well but some people may not see that hence the need to use the big middle of screen banner.

 

[Sirhc]

- The whole purpose of sleep mechanic being punitive is to discourage us from exceeding our play time allowance. It needs to be punitive otherwise it won't have the desired affect.

Where there is a will there is a way. If a sleep mechanic is implemented then people will somehow figure out a way to have multiple accounts that share gear to defeat it and then we will have a string of posts on the forum discussing the fine points of that.

Time limits on instances have helped curb 24/7 auto play but people still find a way to engage as long as possible if the rewards are based on how much grinding your avatar can do efficiently as possible. Some of the new team level developments encourage social play while things like Mayhem are basically sand box and pretty boring in terms of loot. Great for skilling, getting boxes, and building up tokens but really unless you get a rare at some point and time then its a lot of spinning wheels.

It will be interesting to see if UE5 brings in some more dynamic play that isn't a grind and the rewards reflect that play. In the short term MA should probably rework the loot table and minimize loot waves but I don't think this will curb people using a macro or simply smashing the "F" key while watching a movie.

Auto-clicking has been around as long as I have played PE/EU, that's 20 years. MA has implemented auto tools into the system since those days of when uber avatars auto-clicked mod faps in acid pools or scanned trapped mobs. MA's bottom line hasn't been negatively impacted by auto-play, there has been way to many sanctioned implementations that benefit "the grind" so to speak. It's a slippery slope if they say bots are allowed because there is a wide range of bots out there and some may negatively impact their bottom line depending on complexity. I think it will remain a grey area as it always has been.

My solution is to rework the loot tables and reduce or eliminate "waves" and maybe rework long term "grind" events. Rework the hit box mechanics on mobs to be more dynamic. Hunting efficiently isn't just about point and shoot but actively paying attention to certain parts of the creature of where damage is more efficient then others. So let's say you are hunting a heavily armored creature and you completely damage a shoulder plate, the creature reacts to this by trying to protect that weak spot so the hunter needs to engage the creature by trying to maintain hitting that weak spot to be as efficient as possible. Also by doing focused damage to a creature would then allow for better loot because the carcass is in better shape when killed. Focused play requires engagement and even with all that I am sure someone will design a macro to do it all or find some other means.

 

[jwestonmoss]

Maybe it's not a bad idea somehow to reward active players, but do you imagine how many complaints would come if these mini games start to pop up in the middle of fighting big mobs? The way how EU work, mobs don't stop to attack you when you play mini game. Or mini game popping up in the middle of PvP fight and many other cases.
Also complaints that sweaters, fruit walkers, etc. are rewarded for not doing ped input.
Other thing is I hardly imagine something that would be easy to solve for real person and hard for bot. Bots already can do crazy things and they will get better and better in time. How it really feels that this might be just annoying for real persons and just another bonus for good bots.
Overall if something like this will get introduced one day, there should be an option to also turn it off.

easy solution to this problem. have it be a setting the same as auto loot. you could opt out.

the exact implementation could be tweaked to make it as low-impact as possible. a button you can choose to click or not, to start the minigame.

the idea could work. it would just be a question of "getting it right".

 

[jwestonmoss]

Botting is here to stay. Anyone that wants to "reward active gameplay" is truly short sighted. The outcome will be that MA loses money by adjusting automation or "actvie gameplay", it simply will reduce their income.

But you're missing the entire point of rewarding active gameplay.

You don't have to punish the botters (which is a non-starter) in order to reward the active players. If the concern is that botters will get envious, well, don't they already have the huge advantage of playing in their sleep?

 

[Gopher]

Only good solution is designing content that REQUIRES active gameplay and cannot be done by macros, only botted. For example, a randomly timed telegraphed attack that instantly kills you if your still in it when the attack goes off. The bots would be easily identified since they would have pinpoint precision and unhuman-like reactions.

 

[Pi-]

But you're missing the entire point of rewarding active gameplay.

You don't have to punish the botters (which is a non-starter) in order to reward the active players. If the concern is that botters will get envious, well, don't they already have the huge advantage of playing in their sleep?

How can this be achieved? By changing core game mechanics? And how will it not be automatable? It is my opinion that almost anything can be automated and its foolish or misinformed to think otherwise.

Likely, any measure that can be taken to assure the user is actually a live human, will not be exciting or fun gameplay, but on the contrary annoying unfun and perhaps tedious.

Even if these goals could be achieved I bet that it would cost a considerable amount of time and $$$ to develop which does not seem likely, maybe after UE5 release if they make some nice coin.

 

[Zenzile]

By far the best content in this game requires and is continuing to require active play + team coordination + gear. I think MA understands this balance and approach is an effective solution.

 

[Alina]

By far the best content in this game requires and is continuing to require active play + team coordination + gear. I think MA understands this balance and approach is an effective solution.

wait until you hunt near this guy and see what happens

 

[jwestonmoss]

How can this be achieved? By changing core game mechanics? And how will it not be automatable? It is my opinion that almost anything can be automated and its foolish or misinformed to think otherwise.

In theory anything can be automated. In practice millions of people around the world are paid to work jobs. 99% of so-called "botters" are using some kind of simple scripting method or keyboard/mouse macro system that absolutely in no way is going to be able to have a chance of even trying to solve these. For the others, you can pay software engineers to write anything. There's no perfect mousetrap.

any measure that can be taken to assure the user is actually a live human, will not be exciting or fun gameplay, but on the contrary annoying unfun and perhaps tedious

This is an assumption. With the proper imagination and execution it could be done. I'm not saying the team currently in charge has those things. But, in theory it might be done.

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

Where there is a will there is a way.

This works both ways where there is a will to tackle and solve issues there is a way.

Thanks for that post. Very informative. I've added the two Cons you mentioned to the table in the opening post.

I've thought of some strategies against S but probably not a good idea to discuss them here or have them in the public domain. For T I need to read up on that subject first as I admittedly don't know much about it.

 

[jwestonmoss]

it is true that it would take money to develop. which is most likely why it has not been done. most games would have been destroyed by botters, what has turned this on its head is that in general, playtime = spend in EU.