22 Negative hunts in a Row, A Constructive Look at the Future of Entropia, Loot, Fun and Growth

wizz

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Someone told me years ago:

1) Log in

2) Do 5 clicks in crafting
3) Shoot 5 mobs
4) Drop 5 probes

5) Log out

If you hit somthing big in this time be happy, if not, don't hope the long run will fix it...
Did he also say how many times a day to repeat this process?

If it's just once a day, a 1000$ bankroll will last you a long time! :wtg:
 

ihazbackup

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I think I've heard an idea to reduce the exchange rate on $ => PED. Let's say exchange rate is halved so 1$ equals to 20 PEDs

  • Keep all costs/decays/fees the same as it is
  • All players will be compensated accordingly, so their TT value of all items they have is doubled
  • Withdrawal, deposit, webshop items also follow the same rate (20 PED = $1)
  • Cost to play in terms of TT is instantly halved, allowing player to cycle more and their deposit to last longer

The only bad downside I can think of is that MA getting half the profit they made before since depo frequency is potentially halved

IMO, in this current state, EU is not growing, but probably declining at a very small rate. MA will have to adapt / transform the RCE part of the game so that it can benefit the most, not just the few who can steadily profit.
 

San

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IMO, in this current state, EU is not growing, but probably declining at a very small rate. MA will have to adapt / transform the RCE part of the game so that it can benefit the most, not just the few who can steadily profit.
The numbers are in the annual report. Latest I saw it was growing, not stellar but steadily. Biggest losses came from side projects now discontinued.

As mentioned above, this game is at its core a system of redistribution. A rather complex one, but nonetheless. This means that only a minority ever can profit at the expense of the rest. It is not pure gambling as your skills to turn the tables in your favour matter, and participation in the markets is essential. You won't profit from cycling through the TT only. Screwing with the exchange rate or any other parameter that happens to catch someone's eye will not change this principle.
 

Mathilda

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I think I've heard an idea to reduce the exchange rate on $ => PED. Let's say exchange rate is halved so 1$ equals to 20 PEDs

  • Keep all costs/decays/fees the same as it is
  • All players will be compensated accordingly, so their TT value of all items they have is doubled
  • Withdrawal, deposit, webshop items also follow the same rate (20 PED = $1)
  • Cost to play in terms of TT is instantly halved, allowing player to cycle more and their deposit to last longer

The only bad downside I can think of is that MA getting half the profit they made before since depo frequency is potentially halved

IMO, in this current state, EU is not growing, but probably declining at a very small rate. MA will have to adapt / transform the RCE part of the game so that it can benefit the most, not just the few who can steadily profit.
Just scale down your dps by 50% problem solved without gigantic overhaul of the game and massive headache
 

ihazbackup

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The numbers are in the annual report. Latest I saw it was growing, not stellar but steadily. Biggest losses came from side projects now discontinued.

As mentioned above, this game is at its core a system of redistribution. A rather complex one, but nonetheless. This means that only a minority ever can profit at the expense of the rest. It is not pure gambling as your skills to turn the tables in your favour matter, and participation in the markets is essential. You won't profit from cycling through the TT only. Screwing with the exchange rate or any other parameter that happens to catch someone's eye will not change this principle.
I really hope it's true. Wasn't their net profit in 2018 statement also include TT values of inactive players (> 1 yrs of inactivity)? Cuz that's kinda dumb.

Also, isn't that a problem if a minority is profiting at the expense of majority? Yes, I know it's just like real life, etc, but if this goes on and the effect worsens over time, I'm not believing in their steady growth.

Reducing the exchange rate may sound like a band-aid fix, but then again, it doesn't change any core RCE principles in the game and I think it's doing more favor to the majority of players. Are there any other downsides of it aside from the one I mentioned?
 

ihazbackup

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Just scale down your dps by 50% problem solved without gigantic overhaul of the game and massive headache
It's no fun shooting 10-50HPs mobs all the time to get steady return when $40-$50 / month is the only expense you can afford to play. We all want to move forward to kill bigger mobs / drop more probes / craft higher end items, but at this rate, it's unmanageable for small-mid players, or maybe we aren't worth to consider unless we cycle more than $100 per session? :(

I've always believed in "it's better to have 1000 players depositing $10 than 10 players depositing $1000"

Note that $40-$50 a month is already 3 times the standard cost of subscription-based MMOs. You may have the ability to withdraw your money, but last time I heard from the financial statement, only 30% of total deposit were withdrawn. Small / mid players can forget about withdrawing unless they hit a big one or become a full time trader.
 

San

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Also, isn't that a problem if a minority is profiting at the expense of majority? Yes, I know it's just like real life, etc, but if this goes on and the effect worsens over time, I'm not believing in their steady growth.
How else could it possibly work? Money doesn't grow on virtual trees in a virtual world. That's what the "Real" part is all about. There is any number of fantasy games you can play for a modest fee to cover its operations but without being bothered by economic concerns inside of them. Here, they are part of the challenge and the very reason people choose it.

Reducing the exchange rate may sound like a band-aid fix, but then again, it doesn't change any core RCE principles in the game and I think it's doing more favor to the majority of players. Are there any other downsides of it aside from the one I mentioned?
Again, it is a complex system. It definitely helps if one endeavours to understand at least the basic tenets of cybernetics (systems including feedback loops = mathematically trivial descriptions fail), quantum mechanics (individual event = random, statistical outcome = determined), entropy (which is in the name of the game -- why?). If this game can instill an interest in natural sciences, then its value by far exceeds its cost to play.
 

ihazbackup

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How else could it possibly work? Money doesn't grow on virtual trees in a virtual world. That's what the "Real" part is all about. There is any number of fantasy games you can play for a modest fee to cover its operations but without being bothered by economic concerns inside of them. Here, they are part of the challenge and the very reason people choose it.
Alright, let's say there is always going to be small number of people profiting from the majority. After all, it's inevitable in RCE and we all play for different purposes (some to profit, some to just have fun, etc.). Is it perhaps the gap between the winners and losers too big? We've heard people getting 60-70% tt return and others getting 130-140% tt return. It does average to ~90%, but is it fair?

Again, it is a complex system. It definitely helps if one endeavours to understand at least the basic tenets of cybernetics (systems including feedback loops = mathematically trivial descriptions fail), quantum mechanics (individual event = random, statistical outcome = determined), entropy (which is in the name of the game -- why?). If this game can instill an interest in natural sciences, then its value by far exceeds its cost to play.
I'm really not sure what do you mean by that. Mybe there's more meaning to it that I can comprehend, but I'd like to keep it as simple as possible and explore any possible fixes/updates/reforms/ whatever changes that can benefit to most players while also reducing the complexity of implementing it (you know MA).
 

San

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... too big?
... is it fair?
These categories are highly subjective. Taken as opinion, it can be weighed against everybody else's but any conclusion will largely be driven by economic considerations in the company's own interest. What are the consequences on the other side of the fence of having more or fewer customers who can't/won't wrap their mind around the realistic aspects of the system? Anything else would not be rational.
 

ihazbackup

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These categories are highly subjective.
I think it's less subjective than you think. If you lose 30% of your budget after a hunting/mining/crafting session, after using the most possible eco gear according to your budget and skill lv, you can bet 90% of the ppl would be pissed.

just my opinion
 

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The 100% tt will never work. We as a community are the most adverse a dev could have. And I don't mean that in an emotional way, but in a rational way. We will actively test, measure, scratch, experiment and abuse everything that has a number, equation or anything rationally replicable within it. It IS about money, first.

Newer players don't have this image of old style weapons (circa 2005) showing only attacks per minute and maximum damage and MA saying on loot "it's dynamic".

Decay, dmg/pec, maps, wiki, all the freaking knowledge there is out there comes from us, mostly in the quest for profit.

If there would be 100% tt, we as a group would withdraw the hell out of it before MA could say "hold on". It is in the ore concept and if you want a fluffy game of unicorns and rainbows go play wow or something. EU is a huge pvp game in which somebody must lose/deposit (in the good case temporarly, as an investment) for somebody to win/withdraw.

About messi, if there is a relevance, I doubt he deposited more than some 30k bucks, in the sense of initial costs to acquire gear and such. Most people don't understand the sheer importance of bankroll and how gamechanging can be to have that extra 5k ped on you card. 1k$ is a few magnitudes more than 10x100$ in EU.

For Smilgs, the guy is not a charity. Keep that in mind together with a shovel of salt every time you read his statistics.

I fully agree with what Joda said on various cost to play areas. I have quite a few friends who reached uber lvls simply because they play for a long time, but they can't hold their ground at the turnover of weapons at said levels. I would argue this is the biggest segment of failure ingame, the turnover starts to get punishing at lvl50-60 even with totally acceptable % like 95-98, and at lvl 100 it can be insane for anyone not familiarised with EU. There has to be more diversity from this pov, separate a bit skill progression from turnover progression as an alternative.

As for fun and such, to each its own. To me the objectives stated by Abomb sound ridiculous and I never aimed to be big and strong and kill this huge mob solo. As such I have a grand total of two iron chains finished to this day, because it always sounded like a trap to me. My biggest tick is when I do something and I see the method/commercial objective I had in mind is viable and can work. Skillwise I am fine where I am (60ish or smth), with cheap equipment I can be safe in 95% of the universe and I am free to do things and try. That as personal development.

For game objective and economy, I feel the actual mechanism of the game is missing continuously revolving resources which to have a more or less stable demand. Output components and Mtokens are the best examples I can come up with of good practices. We need more of that, tt output is the finest it has been as far as I can remember, maybe a bit too low on the swirl frequency but can't really comment without solid data. If you're unhappy with 90ish, you should have witnessed the SGA period (and even 1 year or so before), where a day of hunting or mining was entirely possible to serve you some 40-50%. Under the glory of those 10k-20k atroxes there was alot of pain, so to say.
 

ihazbackup

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I fully agree with what Joda said on various cost to play areas. I have quite a few friends who reached uber lvls simply because they play for a long time, but they can't hold their ground at the turnover of weapons at said levels. I would argue this is the biggest segment of failure ingame, the turnover starts to get punishing at lvl50-60 even with totally acceptable % like 95-98, and at lvl 100 it can be insane for anyone not familiarised with EU. There has to be more diversity from this pov, separate a bit skill progression from turnover progression as an alternative.
Agree with this. It becomes unreachable when you have to pay hundreds / thousands of dollars monthly just to be able to play on higher lvls. Different people have different budgets for entertainment, and I believe most ppl is at low-mid level in EU. When they can't even progress to higher level due to budget constraint / significant budget leap, you get players who stay stagnant throughout the games. Stagnation = Boredom = Leave.

As far as I know, small-mid players make up the majority of players in EU. Maybe MA is fine having only 20-30 uber depositors playing in the whole universe
 

moondog

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Not an attack on the OP, but I know you have not been playing that long 3 years as quoted by yourself. I have been playing over 7 years and when I look back, I realise that for the first 5 years I did not understand the game at all. In the last 2 years, I have come to understand certain elements of the game.

The key point in all of this is bank roll. You must agree your bank roll in advance, with yourself and stick to it. The bank roll allows you a couple of advantages. First it allows you to cycle enough to pick up the all important multipliers. It is too easy to shoot big mobs for an hour and say the loot is rubbish, you didn't kill enough of the mob to guarantee the multipliers that will increase your average return up to that stated by MA. Secondly the bank roll allows you to save looted / mined items to have enough of them to take advantage of selling them on Auction to get the MU (after the AH costs)

Once your bank roll is established then you decide what you can afford to hunt. I am level 63 and if I hunted a few hours a day as I do with my largest L weapons, my monthly bank roll would not last a week let alone a month. I have 3 UL sib guns, 1 is maxed at level 23 and the other 2 at level 38. 80% of my hunting is done using these 3 weapons. In total I spent 6.5 K ped on the 3 guns so again I needed this money to invest in the first place. Otherwise you are paying MU on every gun you purchase. Lets say 1 sib gun cost me 2000 ped. Lets say that its (L) equivalent cost 100 ped and sells on average for 110%. After I have bought 20 (L) guns at MU then it would have cost me 2200 ped. So if I repair the UL gun 200 times then I have covered the MU on the (L) versions and the UL weapon is free (I have made my ROI on it). The UL gun still has an MU value on it so I could get my investment back if I sold it. I could buy a larger UL SIB weapon which is more costly but my current bank roll would not allow me to ever see a ROI on this weapon.

If I was retired and had a decent income, I probably would buy a bigger UL weapon and hunt more with it, but that is not my current situation. I hunt a lot of small mobs that drop oils. I have noticed that my setup returns me a high percentage of materials hunting smaller mobs. Compare this to hunting larger mobs where my percentage of returned materials is much lower, I just get loads of shrapnel.

The low level materials alone have poor MU and are not worth trading on the AH due to fees. However if you can craft the materials into other items that have a higher MU and I suggest this should be over 108% then you can make a profit selling them on AH. However this again goes back to the bankroll. You must have a sufficient bank roll to hunt the mobs, store the materials and then craft them into a sufficient amount (over 100 ped) to make an Auction Sale profitable.

This is not a way to make money this is a way to reduce your loses. This is all I have ever intended to do. I do go out and hunt large mobs, I have the L gear to do this and enjoy hunting big mobs but unless my agreed bankroll has another zero at the end of it there is no way I am going to keep my game play to an acceptable cost.

Try this very basic test. Choose a mob, hunt for an hour the highest level you can hunt. Then hunt for another hour on a lower level of the same mob. You will see that you have a better chance of hitting multipliers and that you have a better % of items in your loot, ie not all shrapnel. MA have said as much.

Footnote : I only play for fun, but why waste money on your fun when you dont have to. I never buy popcorn or drinks when I go to the cinema, it's a rip off, I pay to see the movie and all the rest is just crap the cinema tries to sell you

Footnote 2 : The above only really applies when you are maxed out on the SIB weapon you purchase. Note also that if you have only a small budget then there are many SIB weapons that are not guns that are cheap to buy, melee and mind force chips for example

That my two pennies worth
 

Alukat123

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If there would be 100% tt, we as a group would withdraw the hell out of it before MA could say "hold on".
Why? The 10-20% cut MA is taking atm, they would then just take via auction fees, withdrawal fees, fuel burn in vehicles, simply because there would be a lot more traffic and playing.
 

Xavier_Jr

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I think it's a good idea. Volatility should be decreased. The game should not wait for 100 thousand clicks, deaths or drops to guarantee 95%. Or at least should have better return rate, especially since there is no MU in the loot of planet partners
 

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I fully agree with what Joda said on various cost to play areas. I have quite a few friends who reached uber lvls simply because they play for a long time, but they can't hold their ground at the turnover of weapons at said levels. I would argue this is the biggest segment of failure ingame, the turnover starts to get punishing at lvl50-60 even with totally acceptable % like 95-98, and at lvl 100 it can be insane for anyone not familiarised with EU. There has to be more diversity from this pov, separate a bit skill progression from turnover progression as an alternative.
A-Strange-Game-The-Only-Winning-Move-is-Not-to-Play
 

Alukat123

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I think it's a good idea. Volatility should be decreased. The game should not wait for 100 thousand clicks, deaths or drops to guarantee 95%. Or at least should have better return rate, especially since there is no MU in the loot of planet partners
been gone for a few months and didn't follow bulletin, are there any plans yet to finally do something about the volatility?
 

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90 or 95% TT return doesn't matter. What matters is the MU.

The higher MU the more interesting it will be come and exciting for the newcommer when he knows he have something of value hunted, miner or crafted.

See, I would rather have 90% return on this big amount cycled with MU, rather then 100% TT return and TT food stuff... I think most people would agree with this.

However, I'm personaly at close to 100% TT return, so can't complain here. But understand the OP's point and agree on much of what he say.
 

Alukat123

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90 or 95% TT return doesn't matter. What matters is the MU.

The higher MU the more interesting it will be come and exciting for the newcommer when he knows he have something of value hunted, miner or crafted.

See, I would rather have 90% return on this big amount cycled with MU, rather then 100% TT return and TT food stuff... I think most people would agree with this.

However, I'm personaly at close to 100% TT return, so can't complain here. But understand the OP's point and agree on much of what he say.
I don't think so.

with 80% TT-return you need to get 125% MU to break even.
with 90% TT-return you need to get 111,11% MU to break even.
with 95% TT-return you need to get 105,26% MU to break even.
with 100% TT-return you need to get 100% MU to break even.

Ofc does the TT-return matter. The lower the tt-return the higher the MU you must get.

Items which are worth 108% MU aren't worthwhile crafting/hunting when getting only 80% or 90% TT-return, but they are worthwhile at 95% & 100% TT-return.
TT-return has a big impact on what's worthwhile to craft/hunt/mine.

Lucky you that you got close to 100% tt-return... others don't even get above 90%.

Personally, i got craft with 150% MU on the crafted item and <110% MU costs for raw materials, yet it's usually not worthwhile crafting because usually i get 50-66% TT-return on the craft.
 
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Alina

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I don't think so.

with 80% TT-return you need to get 125% MU to break even.
with 90% TT-return you need to get 111,11% MU to break even.
with 95% TT-return you need to get 105,26% MU to break even.
with 100% TT-return you need to get 100% MU to break even.

Ofc does the TT-return matter. The lower the tt-return the higher the MU you must get.

Items which are worth 108% MU aren't worthwhile crafting/hunting when getting only 80% or 90% TT-return, but they are worthwhile at 95% & 100% TT-return.
TT-return has a big impact on what's worthwhile to craft/hunt/mine.

Lucky you that you got close to 100% tt-return... others don't even get above 90%.

Personally, i got craft with 150% MU on the crafted item and <110% MU costs for raw materials, yet it's usually not worthwhile crafting because usually i get 50-66% TT-return on the craft.
there is no 80% return long term

every thread you have to come and complain about your tt return lol
 
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Darth Revan

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sure, in the year 2050 it may get higher, but untill then...
Then you are doing something wrong or not tracking correctly.
80% returns in the long run crafting is highly unlikely unless you are crafting way above your level.

Here are my stats for April-Today (haven't cycled as much as i usually do due to RL)

Total Cost (TT): 145374.333
Total Return (TT): 136302.634
Profit/Loss (TT): -9071.698
Return % (TT): 93.76

I have not put MU cost/return as that's not relevant to your 80% return in the long run statement, however i am in the Plus this year due to MU.
 

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Then you are doing something wrong or not tracking correctly.
actually, you guys are claiming that i would claim long term return would be 80%.
What annoys me is return being 80% at 27 out of 30 days and the other 3 days it's maybe 95-100% and after whatever amount of months there may be a very big uber hof. However, bottom line is, 27 out of 30 days 80ish% return, not fun,if the baseline would be raised from 80% back to 90% it would be somewhat okay, but 80% is just too low.
untill MA makes changes the money is better invested elsewhere, like games that are actually fun on almost every day.
 

Darth Revan

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actually, you guys are claiming that i would claim long term return would be 80%.
What annoys me is return being 80% at 27 out of 30 days and the other 3 days it's maybe 95-100% and after whatever amount of months there may be a very big uber hof. However, bottom line is, 27 out of 30 days 80ish% return, not fun,if the baseline would be raised from 80% back to 90% it would be somewhat okay, but 80% is just too low.
untill MA makes changes the money is better invested elsewhere, like games that are actually fun on almost every day.
Guess i am a chosen avatar then as ive had one hof of 2482 ped, and one of 1335 ped during the stats i posted.That more than makes up for the -9K in TT loss.

My returns are averaged between 82%-108% daily TT wise depending on what i am crafting. I have only had 34 days out of the last 149 days where my returns are below 85%, 6 of those days i had 60% returns due to crafting small numbers of different items, but then tt input was low on those days as well compared to normal. But i also expected those to happen.

So if you are getting alot of days at that low %, then it is best that you stay away from crafting and attempt something else or take a serious look at what you are doing that causes these low % numbers....but we already know you wont so your doing the right thing by not spending money on the game.
 
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Alukat123

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So if you are getting alot of days at that low %, then it is best that you stay away from crafting and attempt something else or take a serious look at what you are doing that causes these low % numbers
so, you're implying crafting with overskilled skill level and QR 100 Bp on quantity may be the reason to cause that low %numbers? What solution do you suggest? chipping out to get underskilled? use QR 1 BP instead? start crafting full condition? That would make the %numbers higher? Do you actually believe that?
 

Darth Revan

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so, you're implying crafting with overskilled skill level and QR 100 Bp on quantity may be the reason to cause that low %numbers? What solution do you suggest? chipping out to get underskilled? use QR 1 BP instead? start crafting full condition? That would make the %numbers higher? Do you actually believe that?
The secret is left, left, up, down, circle, square, triangle. Then put on a bear mask and run around the terminal 3 times. Shoot off two fireworks and then do gangnam style.
No seriously, i stopped trying to help you a long time back when i found out that information goes in one ear and out the other.

However, you keep posting about shitty returns and unrealistic %'s without providing anything to back it up or enough information for others to try and help you. So since you posted about shitty returns, i posted my returns to show that its not all as you claim. Others can take from it what they want, but i want to show that one person claiming bad returns over and over is not what everyone can expect to have in this game.
 

Alukat123

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The secret is left, left, up, down, circle, square, triangle. Then put on a bear mask and run around the terminal 3 times. Shoot off two fireworks and then do gangnam style.
No seriously, i stopped trying to help you a long time back when i found out that information goes in one ear and out the other.
Neither you nor the others have provided anything helpful at all, all you did was claiming i would do something wrong, without you or the others saying how to do it "right".

So since you posted about shitty returns, i posted my returns to show that its not all as you claim.
Oh, so different players having different experiences isn't true anymore, now the game just gives everyone the exact same results? do you actually believe that?
I'm not saying your results are a lie, my results simply differ from yours. everyone who doesn't get the same results as you do, is a liar in your opinion? Although, you even said it yourself that you had days with as low as 82% return, what makes it so hard for you to believe that other players have that more often than you do? Your ego? Your mistrust to other players? or is it simply too difficult for you to grasp that different players get different results? Randomness is a concept unknown to you?
 
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Daniel Steps

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Then you are doing something wrong or not tracking correctly.
There's other possible explanations. Some that MindArk might have coded and some that MindArk might not even be aware of (or at least doesn't care about fixing since it's only making players loose: exemple packet loss or other such unintended interference with the game might cause you not to get markup loot).
 

Darth Revan

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Oh, so different players having different experiences isn't true anymore, now the game just gives everyone the exact same results? do you actually believe that?
I'm not saying your results are a lie, my results simply differ from yours. everyone who doesn't get the same results as you do, is a liar in your opinion? Although, you even said it yourself that you had days with as low as 82% return, what makes it so hard for you to believe that other players have that more often than you do? Your ego? Your mistrust to other players? or is it simply too difficult for you to grasp that different players get different results? Randomness is a concept unknown to you?
I have never said you were a liar, nor said i have mistrust in players or that others will not get different results to me. You are making assumtions as always. What I am saying is that if you are getting the results you are claiming, you need to take a step back and look into what you are doing and how you are doing things. Perhaps reach out to some of the well known crafters and see if they will help you, because your results should not be what they are.

When i first started out crafting, i had times where i had poor returns because i just crafted anything i could. Then during a random conversation with a crafter next to me, i asked how they could keep crafting with the returns we would get. To my surprise, they were very willing to help me out and provide ideas/suggestions/information about how crafting works and how i could change what i do to improve my crafting profession. After putting their suggestions into play my returns changed straight away.

Most think crafting is that you just pick any random BP, get ingredients, set to autoclick and then come back later. Like most professions, there is more to it. Hunters don't just pick any random mob and start shooting, miners don't just run around randomly dropping probes over the place. Why would crafting be the same?

Your posts are similar to previous hunting posts of i get xx% return hunting, game is broken. But obviously those people were correct as well, it was nothing that they had to change, it was the game.

But hey, do what ever you like, just expect that if you come on here to complain that crafting is just shitty returns, then I will come on here to dispute that by providing my current returns.
 

Darth Revan

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There's other possible explanations. Some that MindArk might have coded and some that MindArk might not even be aware of (or at least doesn't care about fixing since it's only making players loose: exemple packet loss or other such unintended interference with the game might cause you not to get markup loot).
That might work for hunting, but crafting, you choose the MU you are chasing. This thread has switched from being about the OP's original post to all about Alukat's shitty returns...which happens to a lot of posts on similar topics.
 
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