Question: Adj EP-41 vs L alternatives

Quint

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My preferred weapon type ingame has always been laser pistol. Because of that I am always interested in discussions regarding the "best setup" for a given budget, those questions pop up regularly in this forum. I very often see the recommendation to buy an Adj EP-41 (for those who can't afford better UL weapons).

But when I do the calculation and compare the Adj EP-41 with the guns I am using mostly, Armatrix L pistols, the L versions always come out as the better (= more cost efficient) option. So either my calculations are wrong, or I am overlooking/forgetting anything and therefore I created this post.

Let's start with a comparison between Adj EP-41 + A106 versus Armatrix LP-35 + A106 (all based on the decay/ammo costs on wiki). The A106 lasts 2068 shots so let's take that as example.

  • Adj EP-41 + A106 : total decay 8673 pec and ammo cost 26884 pec for 2068 shots. Total dmg done (75% of max dmg, 8% misses) : 104165. So dmg/pec = 2,9295.

  • LP-35 + A106 : total decay (INCL 117% mu on the gun decay) 8227 pec and ammo cost 25354 pec for 2068 shots. Total dmg done (75% of max dmg, 8% misses) : 99884. So dmg/pec = 2,9744.

The mu on the LP-35's would have to be higher than 144% already in order to be worse than the Adj EP-41 if my calculations are right...
When you look at "higher" level Armatrix pistols (eg. LP-55), the difference becomes even slightly bigger, so in favor of the L guns.

Of course there are certain advantages of having an UL weapon : guaranteed availability is one of them, but in this case I don't see any shortage on Armatrix pistols coming up soon, so I consider that availability as close to guaranteed as well. And if they would ever disappear (Korss / Breer P5 anyone...?), I'm sure MA will ensure new alternatives.
Another advantage of UL items is the option to tier them up (permanently obviously). That is indeed an advantage, any fresh L pistol starts at tier 0 again. But with L guns you can always switch to the next level of them (eg LP-35 => LP40) as you skill up. When you are able to fully use the LP-55 for example, the Adj EP-41 would already have to be at least at tier 4 to match the dmg output of a tier 0 LP-55. And then you also need to consider the tiering up costs on the Adj EP-41 and also the additional cost of the dmg enhancers.

So are my calculations correct ? Am I overlooking something, are there any other factors which I am not considering here ? If not, why would someone like me even consider investing in an Adj-EP41... ?

Any input is welcome !
 

wizz

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I'm just a noob so I could be totally wrong, but aren't you overlooking a very important aspect?
It's loot 2.0 and not 1.0.

MU is not returned in loot. So that is wasted as soon as you buy the gun.

So you would have to compensate the MU of your gun with the EXTRA MU loot you would get when using the L weapons.
 

Quint

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Thanks for your input already Wizz, good point.

When we would do the same total amount of dmg, let's say 100 000 dmg, the LP-35+A106 combo costs 33620 pec in total (incl the mu paid on the gun). The mu which you "wasted" in this amount is 324 pec.

But both the Efficiency and dpp (even after considering mu) are better for the L alternative, so both the tt return and also the loot composition will be slightly better for the L setup.

So the question I guess will be : Will the extra tt return and better loot composition compensate the 324 pec which was wasted on mu ?

And that would not consider the money invested in the UL gun, nor the costs of dmg enhancers when comparing to higher lvl L guns (eg. LP-55).
 
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Svarog

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Let's say you cycled 10000 ped with each of the guns, unamped to simplify calculations.

LR-35 has 7908 uses at 0.1218 ped/use, so you need 10.38 guns to cycle 10k ped. At 117% you paid 132 ped in markup and those ped are completely lost. But what about better efficiency, was it worth it?

LR-35's efficiency is 7.7% higher than Adj EP-41's and 1% difference in efficiency means 0.07% more tt return, so you get 0.54% more tt loot with LR-35, so after cycling 10000 ped you get 54 ped more. But you paid 132 ped for it.

It would be worth it only if you would manage to get LR-35 guns at 106%.
 

wizz

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Let's say you cycled 10000 ped with each of the guns, unamped to simplify calculations.

LR-35 has 7908 uses at 0.1218 ped/use, so you need 10.38 guns to cycle 10k ped. At 117% you paid 132 ped in markup and those ped are completely lost. But what about better efficiency, was it worth it?

LR-35's efficiency is 7.7% higher than Adj EP-41's and 1% difference in efficiency means 0.07% more tt return, so you get 0.54% more tt loot with LR-35, so after cycling 10000 ped you get 54 ped more. But you paid 132 ped for it.

It would be worth it only if you would manage to get LR-35 guns at 106%.


To make it a bit more complicated you should take another thing into account.
Money costs money. Or, money makes money.

Lets say that for the adj 41 you could also buy 2 CLD's.
2 CLD give around 8 ped per week in return.

By NOT spending the money on the adj41, you can instead let it generate money.
You could instead spend that 8 ped per week on MU for an L gun.

So, now you have to take into account the amount you cycle.
If you just play occasionally it might be cheaper to buy L guns and pay for the MU from your CLD returns.
But if you burn through a lot of guns, the CLD return wil not be sufficient and in that case, the UL gun would be better.
 

Quint

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I prefer to add the amps, because that is more realistic and it does play a role in this case.

To burn 10000ped with LP-35+A106 you would need 62181 shots. At 7980 uses per LP-35, you would need 7,86 guns. At 117% you would pay 100 ped in markup.

The efficiency is indeed 7.7% higher, so you should get 54ped more tt back.

So the "loss" would be 46 ped tt, after cycling 10000 ped.

But then we still should factor in the difference in dpp (3.025 vs 2.951 acc to wiki), because it leads to a different loot composition. Let's say we would get a tt return rate of 95%, so we would get back 9500 ped tt. To cover the tt loss of 46 ped, the difference in loot composition would have to result in an average mu which is 0,48% better in the L setup versus the ul setup.

I guess there is no accurate way to calculate the exact effect of dpp vs loot composition, but 0.48% doesn't sound as impossible to bridge in my opinion.

I also believe that if we would compare Adj EP-41 to higher level Armatrix pistols (eg LP-55/60), who's efficiency and dpp both are even better, the difference would even be smaller.
 

Kerham

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Is down to MU of ArMatrix really. Lr35 at 117% with extender at 106% amped with A106 means 13,87 ped MU per 1546 turnover. Accounting for efficiency, you only pay 5 ped effective MU per gun. Which at 10k is barely 30ish something.

UL at this tier of dps shines when you leave Calypso. On Calypso is mostly a moot point.

Rule of thumb is bankroll. first you need it in order to carry the tt volatility/variance/whatever, MU is a much ulterior consideration. If the price of UL would make a significant hole, then don't. If you still have then some 7k, for long romantic grinds ul is the better version (but not by a mile or anything). If tiered, I guess 3-4 tiers of dmg enh can work, they cost almost nothing really.

Actual MU paid, respectively the classic argument for UL starts to be a problem really higher, LP-60+ but then adj ep 41 has no business there.
 
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Svarog

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The efficiency is indeed 7.7% higher, so you should get 54ped more tt back.

Nope. After adding the amp you now have 69.06% efficiency with LP-35 and 62.8 with EP-41, so the difference is 6.26% and you get 43.8 ped more tt back. In the end, it's exactly the same values as without amps because by adding them you just lowered the amount of needed guns for 10k ped which doesn't matter in the long term, which is why I omitted them.
 

Kerham

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you just lowered the amount of needed guns for 10k ped

Which means you "just" lowered the MU paid for 10k turnover. But this is pinching pennies, 0.3% or something. One needs a mob paying MU 105-107% overall and there the difference between Adj Ep41 and ArMatrix simply doesn't exist on Caly.
 

Kerham

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Ok, whatever.
 
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