Does DPP really matter?

[ZPF]

Well they have said that higher efficiency yields higher average return over time.

I'm not entirely sure what theory he's referring to. But it sounds like the theory that claims more regeneration = more loot, so DPS doesn't matter (except to kill quicker -> reduce defensive costs) and DPP is king.

I don't remember MA ever saying anything to support the regeneration/DPS part of that theory. DPS could be considered a form of "higher efficiency".

 

[e-lite]

I'm not entirely sure what theory he's referring to. But it sounds like the theory that claims more regeneration = more loot, so DPS doesn't matter (except to kill quicker -> reduce defensive costs) and DPP is king.

I don't remember MA ever saying anything to support the regeneration/DPS part of that theory. DPS could be considered a form of "higher efficiency".

Correct. More regeneration only raised cost to kill and has nothing to do with how much loot you get.

 

[theProphet]

Correct. More regeneration only raised cost to kill and has nothing to do with how much loot you get.

and again you're wrong in my humble opinion, and i don't write it out of thin air - this has been tested and documented quite a few times! (mann mph on daspletor, for example)

 

[Ace Flyster]

I have no proof of this, but this is how i presume MA sort out mob loot.

Based on damage done to Mob. (not cost to player)

This way, loot accounts for regen of mob, as proven by John? on ambus and the dasp test.

Also makes sure MA never over pays anyone.

This also helps with "eco matters" statement from MA.

If player A spends less to do the same "damage", then player A will get more loot.


I have no proof of this. But it seems to cover all bases.


Rgds

Ace

 

[e-lite]

and again you're wrong in my humble opinion, and i don't write it out of thin air - this has been tested and documented quite a few times! (mann mph on daspletor, for example)

Okay, if you say so. I am not gonna argue against it. I have tested it many times too. I am just gonna stick to what makes me money

 

[ZPF]

I have no proof of this, but this is how i presume MA sort out mob loot.

Based on damage done to Mob. (not cost to player)

This way, loot accounts for regen of mob, as proven by John? on ambus and the dasp test.

Also makes sure MA never over pays anyone.

This also helps with "eco matters" statement from MA.

If player A spends less to do the same "damage", then player A will get more loot.


I have no proof of this. But it seems to cover all bases.


Rgds

Ace

Except, as others have said in the past, it makes DPS/HPS almost entirely irrelevant. You could use a weak gun, and just FAP yourself up while you run back to the mob from the revival terminal, it wouldn't matter. You'd get more loot to compensate for the regeneration.

I'm not saying this makes the theory any more or less viable, that depends on testing - not on opinions.

 

[KijkkiJikki]

When has MA ever said anything to support this theory? (ie: More Damage in = More Loot out, so regeneration doesn't matter, and on a certain level, DPS doesn't matter either.)

Also what Linzey said is true. It is hard for most people to accept that they will never know the answer, so we all pick the theory we are most comfortable with and spread it around like the gospel.

You've misinterpreted what I wrote. Firstly I haven't claimed that regen or dps doesnt matter. There have been a number of tests showing that if you allow mobs to regenerate, that the average loot return is higher but its not linear. Ie taking a mob to almost zero, allowing full regen and then killing it doesn't yield double the loot. Based on those tests, I would suggest that in terms of efficiency and return on peds expended, its better to minimise regen.
And high dps can contribute to more efficient cheaper kills for a number of reasons, so if you aim (as I do) to minimise cost to kill then it can make good sense to wheel out the big guns for particular mobs. Plus it's funner.

And I claimed that my assumption, my loot theory is consistent with MA's statements. Later in the thread Fredda quoted the relevant part of developer note 2 https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...eally-matter&p=3414745&viewfull=1#post3414745

They say efficiency matters. They say that if you have conducted tests that show otherwise then you are doing something wrong. I'm saying that loot based on damage done is absolutely consistent with that.

 

[ZPF]

You've misinterpreted what I wrote. Firstly I haven't claimed that regen or dps doesnt matter. There have been a number of tests showing that if you allow mobs to regenerate, that the average loot return is higher but its not linear. Ie taking a mob to almost zero, allowing full regen and then killing it doesn't not yield double the loot. Based on those tests, I would suggest that in terms of efficiency and return on peds expended, its better to minimise regen.
And high dps can contribute to more efficient cheaper kills for a number of reasons, so if you aim (as I do) to minimise cost to kill then it can make good sense to wheel out the big guns for particular mobs. Plus it's funner.

And I claimed that my assumption, my loot theory is consistent with MA's statements. Later in the thread Fredda quoted the relevant part of developer note 2 https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...eally-matter&p=3414745&viewfull=1#post3414745

They say efficiency matters. They say that if you have conducted tests that show otherwise then you are doing something wrong. I'm saying that loot based on damage done is absolutely consistent with that.

Yeah I had a feeling that's what you meant. A linear relationship would be absurd. But that's what some people on this forum have claimed. I'm just trying to get to the truth.

 

[forgo]

Not to me, I look at how I can kill the fastest and with the best gains.
DPP is only a number on one item in an arsenal of many parts used in a hunt.

DPP and DPS matter very little if you have to heal 3 times every shot, have overkill, or if you are not 10/10, or whatever else.
It would be like celebrating 10 dollar stock purchase with a 6 dollar commission.
Your stock will take forever to pay that commission back, so will a high DPP weapon spent on mobs that should be handled by a set skill/item level.

In reality...only a few people can really effectively benefit 100% from any true DPP , from most of the mobs those kinds of high DPP guns are geared for.... aside from bragging rights and accelerated Prof gains at relatively little cost.

Perhaps if I get to Prof 100 I will consider DPP closer, until then I am out to maximize mission speed, and skills.




As far as cost to kill, the hit-points determine a base cost on all mobs. The tactics, weapon, armor, mob choice ect used as a system is the "ECO" MA is talking about to maximize the return on that cost, and ultimately modify that cost depending on what you use. But again, Highest DPP doesn't necessarily mean most eco or even effective overall situation.

Consider hit-points like a reverse decay, the more decay the target gives, the higher the "cost to kill" to generate a (modified and averaged somehow) loot return. Regeneration adds to the decay given.

Loot returned is input/output across the board, managed by the almighty loot distribution system. A base "cost to kill" of x does not mean a specified loot return, only the potential. I don't think "cost to kill" has any bearing on overall return for this reason. Only the fluctuations on the portion of loot that is dedicated to the input output of the resources a given mob is supplying/denying.

 

[JohnCapital]

DPP does matter since there are multiple people. If you were the only hunter ingame, then DPP would not matter in the long run.

 

[Dollymaus]

DPP does matter since there are multiple people. If you were the only hunter ingame, then DPP would not matter in the long run.

So you know how loot is distributed? explain please...

 

[JohnCapital]

So you know how loot is distributed? explain please...

Simple: Loot is based on a multiplier times damage done. (Meaning how much damage it took to kill the mob.) That multiplier is based on a max number that ensures even the best dpp possible can not get greater than tt return long term.

But, the system also kicks back excess decay into the system to ensure only X amount is removed from the whole ingame economy. This X is MA's rake, to make sure money in is less than money out.

If you are the only hunter, the kickback ensures your return is good even if dpp sucks.

But since you are not the only hunter, that kickback can go to someone else, thus hurting your long term tt return.

Please note that return based on damage done means that the system can have any mob, with any health and regen, without problems.

 

[narfi]

Yes, you will get the exact same return on both, but lose more on the 25 DPS one.

I am convinced this is not true.
Regeneration is certainly (partially) compensated for in loot.
How do you test it? Jump down in the pit with the low lvl THINGs which have relatively low hp, but insanely high regeneration. Kill 20-30 of them with a tt weapon, then kill 20-30 of them with a 20+dps weapon. Compare average (non multiplier) loot sizes.

Next, kill 20-30 with a blp weapon perfectly sized to a beast amp. Then kill 20-30 more with the same gun except with a dante or evil (or high lvl L amp) attached. Compare average (non multiplier) loot sizes.

I do not believe it is economical to do stupid things like this though as poor efficiency is only partially compensated, not fully, thus lowering your average returns even though it is compensated for.

DPP does matter since there are multiple people. If you were the only hunter ingame, then DPP would not matter in the long run.

I am convinced this is true. You must compete against the other players, not against MA. This includes hunting efficiency as well as chasing the ever elusive markup.

 

[slither]

I am convinced this is not true.
Regeneration is certainly (partially) compensated for in loot.
How do you test it? Jump down in the pit with the low lvl THINGs which have relatively low hp, but insanely high regeneration. Kill 20-30 of them with a tt weapon, then kill 20-30 of them with a 20+dps weapon. Compare average (non multiplier) loot sizes.

Next, kill 20-30 with a blp weapon perfectly sized to a beast amp. Then kill 20-30 more with the same gun except with a dante or evil (or high lvl L amp) attached. Compare average (non multiplier) loot sizes.

I do not believe it is economical to do stupid things like this though as poor efficiency is only partially compensated, not fully, thus lowering your average returns even though it is compensated for.


I am convinced this is true. You must compete against the other players, not against MA. This includes hunting efficiency as well as chasing the ever elusive markup.

I've done similar tests and pretty much agree with this.

I do not believe it is economical to do stupid things like this though as poor efficiency is only partially compensated, not fully, thus lowering your average returns even though it is compensated for.

This part i'm not sure about. Nobody has done a long enough test to factor in ubers, so it's possible that % return could end up the same regardless of weapon dpp choice.

However, even if we assume u get the same % back regardless, there's still benefits to eco dpp hunting. eg. Completing an iron mission with uneco weap is a stupid thing to do, team/shared hunting requires best eco possible, and ofcourse getting 90% return from 1000ped hunt is better than 90% return of 1500ped hunt if you kill the same number of mobs.

But if u want a bit of fun and faster/bigger globals then grab yourself a swine deluxe (assuming you're maxed) and go crazy

 

[MG Mighty]

Your possible loot is only based on the mob HP (stamina). It doesn't matter if you spend 17 ped or 170 ped to kill an Eomon Young,

I believe that this is wrong.

I am sure that it wasn't like this for some time that I tested.

But there is a catch, you can't spent more than those ~17 PED without a good reason behind it

The reason that was available at the time of the testing was removed
(it wasn't needed a 3 dmg/PEC to get the common returns over 80%; in fact it was lower than 1 dmg/PEC, but it can't be done anymore).

I don't know any consistently way to test it at my current level (with such an high difference from the "normal" hunting)

There's a pretty good reason why the price tag is high on 3+ DPP weapons.

With this part I agree

On that test that I reference it made a consistent difference to use a A106 or a E15 (in term of ROI for the sample size that I gathered, not sure if it required more to average out the multipliers)

 

[Hunter X Hunter]

I can't take credit for this, thanks O2 - here is a link to a post that has relevance here (took me a while to find it):

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-ass-dpp-sib&p=3376707&viewfull=1#post3376707

Also this: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-ass-dpp-sib&p=3376731&viewfull=1#post3376731

If this graph is how loot works then you are essentially saying DPP does NOT matter

the "TT in" in the formula would mean that even if you use an uneco weapon like what i used in the example
(Herman Law-40 Smuggler) 2.816 dpp to kill an eomon young result in spending 17.826 ped per kill,
that 17.826 is being used in the formula(it is the input), since it is the "TT in" compare to using a very eco weapon (Imk II) 3.28 dpp to kill an eomon young result in spending 15.304 ped per kill and that 15.304 ped will be used in the formula(it is the input), since it is the "TT in".

 

[Eldaii]

just think about the easiest way to calculate something like that.

players convert money into damage. their main stat is dpp -- damage done per pec

the system convert damage into money. its main stat is ppd -- pec per damage


as there are many mobs in game and many weapons, etc etc, there is certainly a fixed PPD, which will be multiplied by damage done on the mob (= mob hp), and that multiplied by factors such as :

total damage done % = damage done / mob hp (if its over 100%, like with regen, it will multiply under certain circumstances (that has been proven))
etc
etc.

 

[Ace Flyster]

I would just like to say;

There is a lot i believe MA could improve, but one thing they have excelled at.

Keeping the loot algorithm secret! Thumbs up to that.



I do remember a time, when you could look at the hof board.....and the big hofs on mobs would be the same time each day. No longer the case, but they still come in waves.


Just throwing that out there....i for one am glad it is not easily found, otherwise this game would have disappeared a long time ago!

Bring on the perception lovers, rofl.


Rgds

Ace

 

[Billy Jean Ruby]

I would just like to say;

There is a lot i believe MA could improve, but one thing they have excelled at.

Keeping the loot algorithm secret! Thumbs up to that.



I do remember a time, when you could look at the hof board.....and the big hofs on mobs would be the same time each day. No longer the case, but they still come in waves.


Just throwing that out there....i for one am glad it is not easily found, otherwise this game would have disappeared a long time ago!

Bring on the perception lovers, rofl.


Rgds

Ace

I think this algorithm is secret because there isn't any

RNG and perc believer

 

[carle]

Simple: Loot is based on a multiplier times damage done. (Meaning how much damage it took to kill the mob.) That multiplier is based on a max number that ensures even the best dpp possible can not get greater than tt return long term.

But, the system also kicks back excess decay into the system to ensure only X amount is removed from the whole ingame economy. This X is MA's rake, to make sure money in is less than money out.

If you are the only hunter, the kickback ensures your return is good even if dpp sucks.

But since you are not the only hunter, that kickback can go to someone else, thus hurting your long term tt return.

Please note that return based on damage done means that the system can have any mob, with any health and regen, without problems.

This is my conclusion after my 10 years ingame as well.
Been doing graphs but since ive started to hunt with a dpp at over 3.25 they are looking scary solid.

 

[e-lite]

So, to all the guys who says DPP + DPS doesn't matter, and that HP regeneration is compensated for in loot return, how much have you guys profited on hunting over all?

 

[slither]

So, to all the guys who says DPP + DPS doesn't matter, and that HP regeneration is compensated for in loot return, how much have you guys profited on hunting over all?

I'm not sure if anyone's saying it doesn't matter. But regen is compensated for (maybe not in full, but definitely in part) and poor eco weaps give better loot to compensate (again, maybe not full compensation but definitely part)

 

[ZPF]

What I would love to know is just ~how much~ regeneration is compensated. It's probably a sliding scale, but having some numerical data to back it up would be incredibly useful.

 

[Spawn]

loot=loot
cost to kill= cost to kill

situation a:

you are a grinder: you kill all the mobs for an extended period of time.
then you need to focus on getting your cost to kill as low as possible. Loot will still be loot. dpp matters and is insanely important for you to get your 90% or more loot return.

situation b:

you are here longer than 10 years and you understand that its handy to change mobs when you've had a hof and a couple of globals. you understand a lot more and have shared it all in the past on this very forum, but have stopped sharing and caring, and simply do your thing to profit, only extending your knowledge to your soc mates and disciples. cost to kill is a bit important but not really important.

In situation b eco = schmeco

in both cases loot = loot

 

[slither]

For those who don't want/can't do a test, here's one.

It's design to show a difference in standard loot between eco and uneco weapon. I'm not interested in globals and multipliers as they would skew such a short test, I just want to show a difference in standard loot.

I used two weapons:

a) Swine deluxe + dante (maxed) eco= 2.962 (2.058)

b) Marine stalker ELM with 1 dam enhancer (maxed) eco= 4.242 (2.948)


These 2 weaps give similar dam/sec and overkill. To balance them more I only shot the stalker at point blank range.

I did 100 kills each (huon young on 4% tax LA) and recorded the loot:

Swine Deluxe 86 78 73 30.91 29.61 7.24 7.11 7.08 7 6.68 6.63 6.62 6.62 6.59 6.53 6.53 6.47 6.46 6.38 6.36 6.35 6.31 6.24 6.19 6.17 6.12 6.1 6.06 6.05 6.03 5.79 5.72 5.65 5.63 5.63 5.63 5.6 5.55 5.53 5.51 5.33 5.01 4.93 4.91 4.81 4.78 4.78 4.77 4.66 4.61 4.61 4.45 4.42 4.35 4.26 4.18 4.01 3.98 3.98 2.96 2.89 2.88 2.85 2.85 2.79 2.77 2.77 2.77 2.74 2.73 2.62 2.48 2.46 2.42 2.42 2.4 2.36 2.25 2.25 2.14 2.11 2.09 2.08 2.06 2.04 2.01 1.42 1.38 1.36 1.32 1.26 1.25 1.18 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Marine Stalker 86 24.2 24.02 23.04 5.6 5.4 5.37 5.35 5.27 5.24 5.24 5.12 5.12 5.12 5.1 5.09 5.05 5.03 4.99 4.98 4.92 4.85 4.78 4.69 4.67 4.67 4.61 4.59 4.57 4.54 4.5 4.48 4.41 4.41 4.4 4.37 4.36 4.35 4.32 4.24 4.22 4.18 4.13 4.12 4.07 3.98 3.75 3.65 3.59 3.57 3.53 3.5 3.45 3.42 3.4 3.39 3.3 3.3 3.26 3.2 3.18 3.15 3.1 2.36 2.28 2.25 2.16 2.16 2.14 2.11 2.1 2.1 2.05 1.98 1.96 1.87 1.85 1.84 1.8 1.79 1.77 1.74 1.73 1.69 1.68 1.65 1.65 1.64 1.58 1.55 1.04 1.04 1.04 0.96 0.94 0 0 0 0 0

As you can see, there is a clear difference. A couple of points to note:

a) Max standard loot on stalker was 5.6ped but swine had 31 loots in excess of this with the max being 7.24

b) average of standard loots (exlcudes multipliers and no loots) was 3.44ped with marine stalker but 4.33ped with swine deluxe.

c) Of course, the cost of the run with swine deluxe was higher than with marine stalker.


This run was too short to prove anything other than there is a differnce in loot between these 2 weapons on this run. If you want to read more into the data than that then that's your choice.

 

[Magnus Mag]

i did something like this some time ago..what i did was:

i used a bl100 blp handgun with and without a beast amp so i highly overamped.

i hunted 50 caudatergus punys with each setup, in one run, attaching and detaching the amp as i liked.

left without amp, right with amp [pec] (sry will just copy paste without proper formating)

4,37 145
3,92 6,24
3,8 6,23
3,77 6,16
3,76 6,09
3,69 5,89
3,32 5,38
3,23 5,22
3,22 5,18
3,18 5,11
3,14 4,89
3,12 4,76
3,04 4,38
2,68 4,31
2,65 4,16
2,61 4,14
2,44 4,11
2,21 3,87
1,87 3,86
1,85 3,77
1,84 3,69
1,82 3,52
1,79 3,46
1,77 3,37
1,73 3,35
1,7 3,35
1,68 3,35
1,64 3,3
1,59 3,26
1,52 3,18
1,24 2,8
1,22 2,69
1,13 2,66
1,12 2,65
1,12 2,63
0 2,61
0 2,35
0 2,33
0 1,95
0 1,89
0 1,81
0 1,8
0 1,68
0 1,06
0 0
0 0
0 0

 

[Ape Drape]

sorry but i think you are wrong!

I don't think he's wrong at all. If cost to kill mattered in what you got for loot, there would be no regen, no misses and no evades and you'd probably see BOOM HEADSHOT!! happen. It's the mob's HP that matters and your loot is based off of that and not how much or little money you spent to take that mob from full health down to 0. Proof is that those mobs that spawn with less than half health that you wait to kill until it hits 51%. You don't get half of what that mob would drop, you get the whole thing (which could be no loot, fragments, 8% to an uber, whatever the D&D dice had in store for you) based on that creature's base HP.

Say the half dead spawned was an Argo young (300 hp), even though you only had to take down 151 hp to loot that mob, your loot will be based off of 300hp. Then your multipliers or penalties figure in to it.

 

[ZPF]

Wth. Why is average loot higher with uneco guns? Doesn't this go against what Mindark told us (that efficiency matters a LOT)?

So not only is mob regeneration returned to us in loot, pure stupidity is returned to us as well?

 

[atomicstorm]

Always viewed uneco weapons as hunting on condition. It has its benefits but if loot is awful, then uneco is penalized.

 

[e-lite]

Wth. Why is average loot higher with uneco guns? Doesn't this go against what Mindark told us (that efficiency matters a LOT)?

So not only is mob regeneration returned to us in loot, pure stupidity is returned to us as well?

The problem is that there's no real testing method for this, and the test provided in this thread are so far not done correctly. They are done at 2 different occasions, 2 different hunting trips. Loot is dynamic, it's not that they changed weapon or amp that changed the loot, it was the occasion. Only "correct" way to test it is to do 200 kills with each other mob the different weapon setup. 1 kill, one weapon, next kill, the other weapon, rinse repeat for 200 registered kills.