I need an EU Economics History Lesson

mandu

Stalker
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Posts
2,017
Location
Right behind you!!
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Mandu Mojo Marconi
Hi Everyone;

I had the urge to try this game out again after a long ( 7 years? ) absence. Obviously a lot has changed.

The most notable change to me is the economy and markup of mined resources. Can anyone give me a lesson about when / why the markup fell so much from years past?

I feel like it may have something to do with loot 2.o, but I'm not certain.

My favourite activity to do used to be mining in PVP 4. Doing so last night showed me that the bread and butter resources, blood moss and himi, aren't worth nearly what they used to be. Are crafted FAPs no longer common / popular?

Cheers, and maybe see you in game.
 

Xavier_Jr

Elite
Joined
Jul 21, 2009
Posts
2,599
Society
Guess Who
Avatar Name
Xavier Jr Riquelme
Hi Everyone;

I had the urge to try this game out again after a long ( 7 years? ) absence. Obviously a lot has changed.

The most notable change to me is the economy and markup of mined resources. Can anyone give me a lesson about when / why the markup fell so much from years past?
7 years? Explanation in a single phrase "Explosive projectiles BP".
 

mandu

Stalker
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Posts
2,017
Location
Right behind you!!
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Mandu Mojo Marconi
I did notice that BP spamming globals while I was in game. Seems to be a slot machine like OA-101 used to be.

But what about the general MU of resources falling so much? Seems to be fewer players too, or maybe I was just on at quiet time?
 

Xavier_Jr

Elite
Joined
Jul 21, 2009
Posts
2,599
Society
Guess Who
Avatar Name
Xavier Jr Riquelme
I did notice that BP spamming globals while I was in game. Seems to be a slot machine like OA-101 used to be.

But what about the general MU of resources falling so much? Seems to be fewer players too, or maybe I was just on at quiet time?
Worst because oa101 needs resources from miners or hunters, but EP only from TT
 

messi91

Elite
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Posts
2,751
Location
Medusa Bazaar floor2, shop3
Society
House of Gamers
Avatar Name
Gaina "Messi91" Cristi
But what about the general MU of resources falling so much?
Look at pyrite
PVP4 only = 200% ++
Noobs can mine it without risk of loosing anything = 140%
Draw your own conclusions.
 

Naverith

Stalker
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Posts
2,383
Location
Idaho, US
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Acoomba Naverith Rafael
Xavier is partly right. Total slot machine on EP crafting.

Used to be what was called "balancing" within the game. MA actually had an employee just for that purpose. Then hats changed at MA and everything went sideways.

Certain mats started to disappear and were no longer found, others were found way to much, limited items that were cheap to craft started showing up, loot that noobs relied on (armor, guns, faps) stopped dropping as much, then never dropped, known locations that mining used to be profitable in went dry, MA lost view of their original plan, so did all of us.

As in all societies, they start strong then drizzle out, especially with poor vision and management.

MA is floundering for the past few years and they hope to discover the "magic" again. Loot 2.0 destroyed most of what's left of hope for many. Now, the rocket scientists that brought us the failed FEN have thought up a complete redesign of operations for avatars. Many players will just wait and see how (not if) MA "fixes" what they've just screwed up.

Who knows. A different viewpoint of all this might give you a step up over old time players ('cause you've been gone awhile). You might find your niche and do quite well. Good luck.
 

jambon

Prowler
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Posts
1,485
Location
Ottawa
Society
Shaolin
Avatar Name
James Jambon Zidane
It's really a long story of cause and effect and there are a lot of factors that come in to play including how the new planets have grown and split the player base and just the general mentality and playing behavior of the new crop of players that have been coming into the game over the years...

It's hard to say for sure but I think the general consensus what the catalyst was with the change though, was when they made Explosive Projectiles craftable using only nano cubes from the TT.

People used to gamble in crafting with making various mining amps - this of course put those related resources in higher demand (niks, narc, belk...etc) which raised the markup. This also fueled an industry of traders that were bridging the gap with the shortages in the auction by collecting smaller quantities from other players to the either sell directly to crafters or to relist on auction for a profit. Then the crafters making those amps would try to sell for a % to recover from their losses...etc...etc.

This started to get out of hand with markups on common resources like iron going for 120%. Of course, this was a great time for miners but it was stepping on the balls of everyone else. Cost of crafting was getting higher making it impossible for noobs to legitimately get in on it. And it was raising the cost of hunting even higher (especially for mid-levels) as the markup on crafted gear was getting insane.

So MA stepped in and made a decision to try to separate the gamblers from the business crafters in an effort to try to stabilize the market, remove the artificial inflation on resources (due to gamblers) and thus reduce the cost to play.

However, they underestimated just how much of crafting was done out of gambling and the markups on all the resources dropped too much. The really low markups on resources forced virtually all traders out of business and pushed a good percentage of people (myself included) away from mining as it was virtually impossible to profit unless you were going specifically for super rare resources that require high end skills and gear.

One reason why the underestimated how much resources were going to drop is because so much of EU economy was based on looted gear being more utilized than crafted gear. More people were using looted guns rather than crafted ones. I believe at the time they had introduced tiers and enhancers but again underestimated their use since most guns hadn't had many tiers unlocked at this point. Of course this became another problem later that is still being worked out which is the insane markup on various enhancers making them inefficient as hell to use and the primary resources used in crafting them such as Pyrite have insane markups. Not to mention the rollercoaster ride that is opals - another primary (and rare) ingredient in upgrading weapon tiers. Opals can hit over 700% markup after a series of new weapons come out and people are rushing to tier them up...

So fast forward and MA has introduced the ArMatrix series of weapons and weapon amps (which are crafted) as well as various missions that allow people to upgrade faps (2350/2600), armor (angel... and others I'm sure lol) and weapons (ep-41, Maddox IV). The also removed various looted gear from the loot pool such as the beloved Korss. The ArMatrix is arguable the best move they have made to building a sustainable economy as most people these days that use L guns or melee are using an ArMatrix weapon. I personally believe the ArMatrix series will eventually branch out into the armor realm right around the time that armor professions are actually implemented. Which MA stated in their AMA is "coming soon".

As for faps - I think there are a lot less people using using L faps as modified faps and restoration chips have proliferated. The higher % and skill requirement of L faps isn't really worth it to have it as a primary fap when you can get a mod 2350 for as low as +4200 these days. Also with loot 2.0 taking into account fap cost (but not markup) people are more motivated by sacrificing efficiency in the best L faps for the sake of saved markup in UL ones that are repairable and retain their markup (for the most part).

Anyways, I could go on... But you get the idea. There is still money to be made in mining but it's gotten a lot harder than the good old days. It's now required that you specifically go for the rare materials that are used a lot in the most commonly used items which are basically ArMatrix series weapons, Tier upgrades and Weapon Enhancers (mostly damage). Oh... and be loaded out to fight for those resources too as some (pyrite) are only available in lootable PVP areas and around higher level mobs.

One final thing I will bring up is MA has stated that they are planning to reduce the amount of resources in the game at some point. I suspect this is in an effort to raise markups of certain resources by in essence pooling them together. So be on the lookout for that too.

A lot has changed in the game and there is still markup - you just need to know where to look as it's not right in your face anymore like back in the day.
 
Last edited:

Neil Stockton

Stalker
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Posts
2,059
Location
USA
Avatar Name
Neil Greenleaf Stockton
In 2014 MA dropped a Christmas present that killed the mining, crafting, and much of the hunting economies. This present was the explosive projectiles BPs.

Over the last 4-5 years, MA has step by step eliminated various other aspects of the game's economy, making it more and more like a single player casino game. In my opinion this roadmap is unfortunate, since the player-driven economy was the only thing that set Entropia apart from other games and what made it interesting beyond the first few weeks of exploration.
 
Last edited:

messi91

Elite
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Posts
2,751
Location
Medusa Bazaar floor2, shop3
Society
House of Gamers
Avatar Name
Gaina "Messi91" Cristi
In 2016 MA basically killed the mining and crafting economies by introducing the explosive projectiles BPs. It also put a damper on much of the hunting economy. The trend over the last 4 years has been for MA to gradually eliminate various aspects of the game's economy, making it more and more like a single player casino game. In my opinion this roadmap is unfortunate, since the player-driven economy was what set Entropia apart from other games and what made it interesting beyond the first few weeks.
Yeah that's one way of looking at things.
Here's another : Mindark introduced EP4 for players to craft their own explosive ammo that are mainly used in pvp.
Casino players aka losers thinking ok this is 20pedx 8 (full condition) 160 and if i get 10000 multi because why not jeez thats tons of money ok im all in, hit me dealer this is my lucky day i feel it in my pants.

Its player's decision if they want to craft it or not.What it does actually is telling you who you are.Winners stick to markup crafts and have a successful business in that field and losers click ep4 thinking they will ath.In the end everyone who click ep4 will eventually lose all their peds and quit the game and all other crafters chasing markup will extend their business everywhere.
The choice is yours.
I personally never clicked it and never will and I hope everyone who keep clicking it will go broke and leave the game and in the meantime new players will learn from their mistake and never touch it.
 

Haruto Rat

Elite
Joined
Jul 9, 2013
Posts
3,341
Society
fode et fuge
Avatar Name
Cunning Haruto Rat
I can only add some minor detail to what was already said.

In 2014, around the same time EP blueprints were released, they made a massive 'mining event', now mostly forgotten. That helped break the charts, too; it could even have had more immediate impact than EP as EPIV blueprints were few in the early days.

As for faps - I think there are a lot less people using using L faps as modified faps and restoration chips have proliferated. The higher % and skill requirement of L faps isn't really worth it to have it as a primary fap when you can get a mod 2350 for as low as +4200 these days. Also with loot 2.0 taking into account fap cost (but not markup) people are more motivated by sacrificing efficiency in the best L faps for the sake of saved markup in UL ones that are repairable and retain their markup (for the most part).
And if this wasn't enough, overarmoring isn't a cardinal sin in 2.0 anymore, further reducing demand for fapping. Note that gold and solis (= perseus) are higher now than they were five years ago.
 

Neil Stockton

Stalker
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Posts
2,059
Location
USA
Avatar Name
Neil Greenleaf Stockton
Yeah that's one way of looking at things.
Here's another : Mindark introduced EP4 for players to craft their own explosive ammo that are mainly used in pvp.
Casino players aka losers thinking ok this is 20pedx 8 (full condition) 160 and if i get 10000 multi because why not jeez thats tons of money ok im all in, hit me dealer this is my lucky day i feel it in my pants.

Its player's decision if they want to craft it or not.What it does actually is telling you who you are.Winners stick to markup crafts and have a successful business in that field and losers click ep4 thinking they will ath.In the end everyone who click ep4 will eventually lose all their peds and quit the game and all other crafters chasing markup will extend their business everywhere.
The choice is yours.
I personally never clicked it and never will and I hope everyone who keep clicking it will go broke and leave the game and in the meantime new players will learn from their mistake and never touch it.
But EPs are more expensive now than they were before (to craft AND buy), so that argument kinda falls on its head.

Whether EP BPs have increased or reduced the peds spent on gamble crafting, I can't say. It is less engaging than the BPs from before, though it is cheaper. But one thing is certain, it eliminated most of the mining economy within weeks. The other steps MA has taken to reduce the economy, the UL weapons dumps, shrapnel, nerfing L items, etc have all contributed to what we see today. EP BPs was merely the step that had the most profound effect.
 
Last edited:

jambon

Prowler
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Posts
1,485
Location
Ottawa
Society
Shaolin
Avatar Name
James Jambon Zidane
And if this wasn't enough, overarmoring isn't a cardinal sin in 2.0 anymore, further reducing demand for fapping. Note that gold and solis (= perseus) are higher now than they were five years ago.
That's a really good point that I missed.
 

narfi

Elite
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Posts
4,860
Location
Alaska
Society
Lost Renegades
Avatar Name
Narfi Hungry Willem
As mentioned it is a combination of EP crafting and an oversaturation of UL gear.

We have basicly the same player base as 7 years ago.
But everyone has gone up in playing levels.
What was uber 7 years ago is now midlevel.
Everyone at the new uber level uses UL gear, this hasnt changed, they did in the past as well.
Now however a large portion of the new mid level (old low level players now playing at old uber levels) has UL gear as well.

This means we can have a similar or smaller population cycling a LOT more peds, but at the same time since they are being cycled with UL gear much less of it cycles back into the economy.

Basic economics show that a dollar held onto makes for a stagnant economy while a dollar that changed hands multiple times an economic cycle makes for a rich economy.

With these two major changes the money has stopped moving around and the economy has stagnated.

Take myself for example.
7 years ago I was a lower level player wanting to skill up and kill bigger stuff, I was buying L armors, L guns, L faps and selling lots of resources for markup, selling looted armors for markup, selling looted guns for markup.

Now I have UL tiered armor, a tiered blade that does high dps and a tiered pistol for grinding with, a UL hadoc, and a variaty of plates. My wife hardly plays anymore but when I need help she also has up gear and fap so can add dps or healing when needed.

I can play at a medium level (former uber levels) with no interaction with the economy, just the TT and repair terminals.

There is little demand for the armor, guns, and rare resources I loot, I still work at targeting markup, but because I have no markup spent it requires less to makeup as well.

Over the years I have also acquired BPs for things I do need such as firewall mk3(L) armor and Dclass amps. But I can collect my own resources for them and again do not interact with the economy.

The economic system is broken. It will be very hard for it to recover and from the AMA responses I do not feel this issue is understood by the current development team and they have no plans to try making it better.

There are ways to correct the EP situation whole keeping the bps in game and gamblers happy. Buy it would need to be addressed delecitly.

The over saturation of UL gear can only be addressed with a drastic change in population.

If there was a HUGE influx of new players L0-L50 working their way up from 50, then the sheer volume of UL gear would be diluted and we would start seeing a demand for Limited gear again at a ratio that could encourage economic growth and a need for mines resources.
 

Xavier_Jr

Elite
Joined
Jul 21, 2009
Posts
2,599
Society
Guess Who
Avatar Name
Xavier Jr Riquelme
In the end everyone who click ep4 will eventually lose all their peds and quit the game
Completely true. However they could destroy the game together with them.
 

Tina Walther

Guardian
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Posts
341
Location
Germany (BAY)
Society
Raumschiff Titanic reloaded
Avatar Name
Tina Abuyin Walther
welcome back :yay:
 

GoNi

Slayer
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Posts
7,556
Location
Calypso, Sakura City
Society
freelancer
Avatar Name
Gloria GoNi Nicestyle
Are crafted FAPs no longer common / popular?
That nailed it down.

Unlimited EMT EK 2600´s
Resto chips from Mission Galactica
Giveaway Vivo S10 from gauntlet mission.

That together made FAP crafting completely obsolete, and its why there is no MU left on Blood Moss!

7 years? Explanation in a single phrase "Explosive projectiles BP".
Thats simply not true, as non of the PvP4 resources ever have been used by gamble crafters (OA-101 clickers), this resources always was used by FAP crafters (Blood Moss).

The MU on that resource got killed by Imp/Mod EKs, Vivo S10 and the Resto Chips from gauntlett, as stated above!
 

Korin Dante MDe

Old Alpha
Joined
Sep 16, 2013
Posts
740
Lots of UL items dropped and L version was introduced for high end items like Angel armor. The uber started using UL version and people with little time trying out big stuff bought L versions. Then there is also deeds and less amount of ped flow in economy. that also caused low markup for resources.
 

mandu

Stalker
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Posts
2,017
Location
Right behind you!!
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Mandu Mojo Marconi
And if this wasn't enough, overarmoring isn't a cardinal sin in 2.0 anymore, further reducing demand for fapping. .
Everything in the replies so far makes sense, but I don't grok this one. What's changed in the armor mechanics?
 

Haruto Rat

Elite
Joined
Jul 9, 2013
Posts
3,341
Society
fode et fuge
Avatar Name
Cunning Haruto Rat
Everything in the replies so far makes sense, but I don't grok this one. What's changed in the armor mechanics?
In a nutshell:

Minimum decay has been removed; decay is now strictly proportional to damage absorbed.
Armor decay has been lowered overall, it now requires some ingenuity to run up 5% decay bill.
Armor costs are now returned in loot, and it can even be tested.
Minimum damage was changed from 1.0 to 0.0 ('deflected').
 

GoNi

Slayer
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Posts
7,556
Location
Calypso, Sakura City
Society
freelancer
Avatar Name
Gloria GoNi Nicestyle
In a nutshell:

Minimum decay has been removed; decay is now strictly proportional to damage absorbed.
Armor decay has been lowered overall, it now requires some ingenuity to run up 5% decay bill.
Armor costs are now returned in loot, and it can even be tested.
Minimum damage was changed from 1.0 to 0.0 ('deflected').

To add to this:

Using big ass armor even on medium mobs now is much more eco than healing with crafted FAPs
Using big armors often is more cost efficent than hiring a healer

So it works all together to make crafted FAPs completely obsolete.

Dont know if anyone still crafts Vivo´s, well at least not me :D
 

Haruto Rat

Elite
Joined
Jul 9, 2013
Posts
3,341
Society
fode et fuge
Avatar Name
Cunning Haruto Rat
Dont know if anyone still crafts Vivo´s, well at least not me :D
People who get their hands on boosted blueprints do. They often end up tt-ing the product though.
 

mandu

Stalker
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Posts
2,017
Location
Right behind you!!
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Mandu Mojo Marconi
In a nutshell:

Minimum decay has been removed; decay is now strictly proportional to damage absorbed.
Armor decay has been lowered overall, it now requires some ingenuity to run up 5% decay bill.
Armor costs are now returned in loot, and it can even be tested.
Minimum damage was changed from 1.0 to 0.0 ('deflected').
Ah. Interesting. That seems like a good thing for hunters, but a bad thing for the overall economy of EU.

Does this also mean that wearing damaged / low TT UL armor is no longer super un-eco?

Thanks to everyone for filling in this born again noob.
 

Spawn

Slayer
Joined
Dec 5, 2005
Posts
7,793
Location
The Netherlands
Society
The Ministry
Avatar Name
Storm Spawn Bootcamp
There also was a vu that gave a lot of us 10-30 HP for free, because more skills contributed to HP.
Less need to fap.
 

Ace Flyster

Elite
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Posts
4,948
Location
England, London
Society
Rangers
Avatar Name
Dave Ace Flyster
I am surprised that most people are blaming EP. The real reason is that there isn't anything worth crafting anymore.

EP has the effect of over supply of metal residue. This in turn reduced the prices of mining amps, miners mined more with bigger amps, couple with nothing worth crafting and there is no demand for ores/enmatters.

Crafting is mostly broken. A few amps are worth it, and a few armatrix guns, and the odd enhancer. That's it.


Disclaimer:

Getting rid of EP will NOT fix low ore/enmatter prices. IF anything, EP's are needed for any chance of any crafted limited item to be ever competitive with the massive amount of UL eco gear around.

Rgds

Ace

EDIT: and NO. People won't automaticaly craft something else, because there is no EP. Entropia life, crafting stats shot up 5 - 6 fold after EP. Get rid of EP and crafting stats will slump back again.
 

nutrageti

Stalker
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Posts
2,380
Society
Silly Underground Family
Avatar Name
47 nutrageti hitman
An interesting thing and unexpected side effect of what many have asked for over the years is the rise of melee weapons. MA has introduced Melee Amps and unlimited amps at that. This makes melee hunting a lot more attractive. Coupled with the large number of unL blades that Arkadia drops in loot means that most low mid level players can get unL Swords with unL amps for not so many PEDs.

Lots of little factors added up.
 

Captain Jack

Elite
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Posts
3,182
Society
Freelancer
An interesting thing and unexpected side effect of what many have asked for over the years is the rise of melee weapons. MA has introduced Melee Amps and unlimited amps at that. This makes melee hunting a lot more attractive. Coupled with the large number of unL blades that Arkadia drops in loot means that most low mid level players can get unL Swords with unL amps for not so many PEDs.

Lots of little factors added up.
Don't forget life steal amps. For less than 30 PED you can get 5% lifesteal on your blade that lasts over 50,000 swings.
 

mastermesh

Mutated
Joined
Apr 21, 2007
Posts
15,044
Location
Billy Bar
Society
the Ministry
Avatar Name
Maria Mesh
Just get rid of tt's ability to buy anything...
 

Elmurfud

Old
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Posts
88
Also skill pills,skill boosts and skill adding ring that makes you lvl up faster and can kill the market for lower level L guns,loot boxes.
In a nutshell,MA having no idea what makes an economy work so every time they messed with drop rates,BP's and other things they introduced,they thought only on the short term,never on the long term impact.If they keep this up you can say bye bye to the E in this RCE because the things with markup will get lower in number,everyone will chase them,the supply will increase,mu will go down..it's a domino effect.
Wander why they don't have a damn economist in the team to figure out the impact off introduced changes to the economy.....
 
Top