Other players mining before you affects your hit rate

I tried mining different depths years ago. A few simple tests. First bombing with f101 until no resource found then immediately the next bomb with vrx3k, never got a claim at a lower depth. 15 different locations or so before giving up (not enough to be significant, but enough for me to stop trying).

Rgds

Ace
 
Thank you, it was an interesting read, this doesn't come without a question tho :)


we basically repeated this, but extended the wait time between drops. With the second miner being 15 minutes after the first "clearing" miner, there was no difference in hit rate

If I get this correctly (just to make sure), 5 minutes wait time for the other 2 miners lead to bad results, but waiting 15 minutes resulted in ok, or normal returns. What jumps out is that if the same miner goes to the same spot after 15 or even 30 minutes he'll get very bad results.

Imho, this proves that claims are generated when you click (as in they're not in the ground waiting to be found) based on your avatar's "luck" (ofc it's not luck per se, I just have no better word for it) and history in general. Am I getting to something here, or is this completely off?
 
What jumps out is that if the same miner goes to the same spot after 15 or even 30 minutes he'll get very bad results.

Generally when I've tried to replicate this just by myself at that 15 minute mark, I don't see significantly decreased hit rate. I usually give my timer on LBML 20 minutes just so I move around a little, but there are other reasons why I won't just constantly bomb the same set of coordinates every 20 minutes. I wouldn't do this at Ashi for instance because it's likely someone else mined behind me in those 15-20 minutes. It's also possible the "respawn" rate varies across different areas though or isn't a constant value

You had the time spacing down for what we did though. Hit rate can vary in an area though, and it can suddenly drop. We incorporated that into the design here to a degree. If you're not careful about that, it can be easy to have a correlation doesn't equal causation moment where you drop 15 minutes later and have a bad second "run", but when you average that out over multiple runs, that hit rate change just becomes normal variation instead of being associated with drop timing.

The take home of this thread though is that claims aren't just generated when you click, but have some pooled "in the ground" aspect across all avatars. If it was more of a personal loot pool when you click kind of thing, hit rate and TT shouldn't decrease just because someone mined the same area. I put in the ground in quotes because there are multiple ways that process could work, but the end result is that there is a spatial component that at least acts like the hit or miss factor for claims is already "in the ground" before you decide to even click.
 
I tried mining different depths years ago. A few simple tests. First bombing with f101 until no resource found then immediately the next bomb with vrx3k, never got a claim at a lower depth. 15 different locations or so before giving up (not enough to be significant, but enough for me to stop trying).

Rgds

Ace

Honestly, 15 locations actually probably would have been enough to get significant results. Mine were obvious before I reached significance. I have to dig up the data again, but even after 50 drops, there was a practically non-existent chance that the hit rates were ever going to be the same when I ran the statistical tests.
 
After reading this and the other test you did, i feel forced to change how i think claims work.

In the good 'ol days, two miners could find the same claim, and it was the first person to get there that claimed it. This led me to believe claims were 'in' the ground before hand. Then the mining system changed and you found the claim instantly. I had always assumed that MA changed the entire system and removed claims 'in' the ground. But after all your tests, the more likely scenario is that they never changed the 'back end system' and only changed the front end and that claims are still 'in' the ground waiting to be found.

So here is my, mostly, unproveable theory.

1) Claims are spawned in the ground.
2) The amount/type is decided after the avatar finds it - which would take into account finder/amp of the tool used.
3) Claims are 2d, there is no depth calculated before the claim is found.

I guess from a programming side of things, this is also probably the easiest. And also would go with the double bombing tests done before. The likely hood of a second claim was consistently low and, in my view, in line with a random distribution of claims 'in' the ground.

Rgds

Ace

EDIT: there is one thing to consider. Someone years ago managed to land on an asteroid in space, and managed to mine and actually found a lyst claim. Why would MA have claims in space at all? This for me is (small) evidence that claims are generated at the time of drop, but not enough to convince of my thoughts from above. Something to ponder.

Also, MA dropped a purposeful 150k mining claim during an event, for publicity - not 100% sure it was on purpose, but it was a suspiciously rounded amount. This has many different possibilities, one being that claims might have a designated multiplier, or that MA can instigate a manually ratio for a specific time, but not a specific avatar. So the next claim found on the planet will have this multiplier. (i don't not believe for a second that MA can give specific avatars multipliers, and i wouldnt play this game if i thought they did). Just more food for thought.
 
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After reading this and the other test you did, i feel forced to change how i think claims work.

In the good 'ol days, two miners could find the same claim, and it was the first person to get there that claimed it. This led me to believe claims were 'in' the ground before hand. Then the mining system changed and you found the claim instantly. I had always assumed that MA changed the entire system and removed claims 'in' the ground. But after all your tests, the more likely scenario is that they never changed the 'back end system' and only changed the front end and that claims are still 'in' the ground waiting to be found.

So here is my, mostly, unproveable theory.

1) Claims are spawned in the ground.
2) The amount/type is decided after the avatar finds it - which would take into account finder/amp of the tool used.
3) Claims are 2d, there is no depth calculated before the claim is found.

I guess from a programming side of things, this is also probably the easiest. And also would go with the double bombing tests done before. The likely hood of a second claim was consistently low and, in my view, in line with a random distribution of claims 'in' the ground.

Rgds

Ace

EDIT: there is one thing to consider. Someone years ago managed to land on an asteroid in space, and managed to mine and actually found a lyst claim. Why would MA have claims in space at all? This for me is (small) evidence that claims are generated at the time of drop, but not enough to convince of my thoughts from above. Something to ponder.

Also, MA dropped a purposeful 150k mining claim during an event, for publicity - not 100% sure it was on purpose, but it was a suspiciously rounded amount. This has many different possibilities, one being that claims might have a designated multiplier, or that MA can instigate a manually ratio for a specific time, but not a specific avatar. So the next claim found on the planet will have this multiplier. (i don't not believe for a second that MA can give specific avatars multipliers, and i wouldnt play this game if i thought they did). Just more food for thought.

If you think of same ATH as I do, it must have been on purpose, since Marco visited
German television and that someone should have the "luck" to get one just when
he were there I truely doubt it. ;)
 
EDIT: there is one thing to consider. Someone years ago managed to land on an asteroid in space, and managed to mine and actually found a lyst claim. Why would MA have claims in space at all?
Where in space? Got some coordinates? It could have possibly been somewhere in a server that is tied to another map or something?

I think I read somewhere that once Mindark let someone put the entire world in their inventory or something and it crashed the server...
 
Where in space? Got some coordinates? It could have possibly been somewhere in a server that is tied to another map or something?

I think I read somewhere that once Mindark let someone put the entire world in their inventory or something and it crashed the server...


This is a vague memory. Probably here on pcf somewhere and probs in the mining section. But someone managed to find a claim in space. I just don't remember any details.

Rgds

Ace
 
After reading this and the other test you did, i feel forced to change how i think claims work.

So here is my, mostly, unproveable theory.

1) Claims are spawned in the ground.
2) The amount/type is decided after the avatar finds it - which would take into account finder/amp of the tool used.
3) Claims are 2d, there is no depth calculated before the claim is found.

That's the general framework that does seem to fit in my mind. There's been speculation about step 2 out there on what order the attributes of a claim are generated, but one thing that seems to stand out is Valurite or Kirtz. You more or less need to amp to hit those claims setting aside outliers on the very tail of the TT distribution curve.

That would seem to indicate amount is calculated first, then the system checks if that's enough to include a single stone of a resource. If not (and into assumption territory), it's just not included in the loot table for that individual server calculation on the claim, and selection occurs from the other available resources. There could be a different mechanic like if Valurite was chosen but TT < 6 ped, then type = Lyst or something to that effect, but that would be getting more cumbersome on the programming side across all mining areas.
 
I am going to resurrect an old thread... As I have a very simple question.

I perceive the flow of finding a claim working like this.

1) Avatar drops probe/s from a set coordinate using a finder.
2) A request is sent to the "black box" initiating the scan. Finder decays
3) The scan takes a few seconds to process returning a result to the player
4) If 3 was successful a claim in generated in the world as well as the claim deed in the avatars inventory as well as any skillgain.

I do not think anyone would have any objection to this flow...

The question I have will be in step 2)... (It had to be a black box question)... I am going to start with small questions and move on from there...

If the hit rate returns to "normal" after a period of +-x minutes, is there enough evidence to suggest that there could be a x minute cycle at play ?
 
I remember when after an update MA quickly shut down the servers, because claims were clumped in Underground. So when peeps were finding a claim, tehy were hefting on a massive amp, and spamming that local area and were raking it in. I remember seeing the spam. This implies claims are still 'in the ground' already.

Rgds

Ace
 
I remember when after an update MA quickly shut down the servers, because claims were clumped in Underground. So when peeps were finding a claim, tehy were hefting on a massive amp, and spamming that local area and were raking it in. I remember seeing the spam. This implies claims are still 'in the ground' already.

Rgds

Ace
Thanks Ace, something to think about..
 
I think resources being "in the ground" also aligns well with resource tables switching on a timer for some areas. In the areas where the table doesn't switch, perhaps the resource distribution does instead. When this timer is hit, perhaps the claims respawn too.
It could even be that a random resource table is rolled fairly frequently (like every 5-10 minutes), which makes it likely that the same table is hit twice in a row or more, and thereby resources are refreshed, without any visible change for the player.
 
I think resources being "in the ground"

They're set by developers as Nodes at certain coordinates.

index.php


This is why you can find veins as noted in the above image.
 
I think resources being "in the ground" also aligns well with resource tables switching on a timer for some areas. In the areas where the table doesn't switch, perhaps the resource distribution does instead. When this timer is hit, perhaps the claims respawn too.
It could even be that a random resource table is rolled fairly frequently (like every 5-10 minutes), which makes it likely that the same table is hit twice in a row or more, and thereby resources are refreshed, without any visible change for the player.

I think it is most likely the resource type and size is decided upon finding the claim. Just the location is pre-determined. (this is a guess, i don't know.. but I agree with kingofaces)
Rgds

Ace
 
I think it is most likely the resource type and size is decided upon finding the claim. Just the location is pre-determined. (this is a guess, i don't know.. but I agree with kingofaces)
Rgds

Ace
Yeah I'm not saying the resource type would be stored "in the ground" as well, but rather that it would make sense for re-spawns of claims in the ground to overlap with loot-table switches for areas.
 
I do not think that MA uses a diceroll when you use a probe... That does not make sense as you would have to black list 2*pi*r^2*(max depth-min depth) points PER probe...

Rather I would and I hate a admit it... a PRNG seed that generates a database / white list of points that enter a cool down once found might be the way to do it. After a set amount of time, a new seed is chosen and it all starts again...

But this thread is hardly the place to discuss this..
 
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An important question is what triggers these claims to be generated in the first place. Are they simply on a clock?
I can drop in a circle in an empty server and eventually I'll find claims.

What if claims are generated by your avatar (as in, triggered by decay)?
It would explain why two players in the same server cannibalize each other's hit rate so profoundly. The other guy is hitting claims you generated and vice versa.

It's just a theory, but it aligns with the whole loot 2.0 philosophy of reducing volatility. It could also just be one part of the equation.
 
An important question is what triggers these claims to be generated in the first place. Are they simply on a clock?
I can drop in a circle in an empty server and eventually I'll find claims.

What if claims are generated by your avatar (as in, triggered by decay)?
It would explain why two players in the same server cannibalize each other's hit rate so profoundly. The other guy is hitting claims you generated and vice versa.

It's just a theory, but it aligns with the whole loot 2.0 philosophy of reducing volatility. It could also just be one part of the equation.
Think of the implications of claims being avatar generated...

If I know that dropping a probe, generates a probe with a set offset from the avatar, that could be and has been exploited...
 
I think its unlikely MA has multiple systems. I think mining is like hunting. Difference being mining spawns don't move around vs mobs move (note they have different agro, so agro of 0 for a mining spawn). Hunting the claims are visible (mobs) and you have to reduce its health to 0 to start a claim (loot). Mining is invisible and you have to use a finder (to find the spawn) then the claim(loot) is calculated. Crafting probably operates on similar mechanisms just how you view it is different. The testing above kind of indicates the role of fixed spawn of mining deposits. If a hunter with a blade runs into a zone with a ranged hunter he won't have much hit rate although he won't decay because hunting is finding claim up front vs searching for the mob. Hope you don't mind my interchanging of mob/claim here to try to explain what i think.
 
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I think its unlikely MA has multiple systems. I think mining is like hunting. Difference being mining spawns don't move around vs mobs move (note they have different agro, so agro of 0 for a mining spawn). Hunting the claims are visible (mobs) and you have to reduce its health to 0 to start a claim (loot). Mining is invisible and you have to use a finder (to find the spawn) then the claim(loot) is calculated. Crafting probably operates on similar mechanisms just how you view it is different. The testing above kind of indicates the role of fixed spawn of mining deposits. If a hunter with a blade runs into a zone with a ranged hunter he won't have much hit rate although he won't decay because hunting is finding claim up front vs searching for the mob. Hope you don't mind my interchanging of mob/claim here to try to explain what i think.
Who says mobs/claims don't move ....

So claims could be the corpses of invisible entities... That is a very interesting approach.
 
Who says mobs/claims don't move ....

So claims could be the corpses of invisible entities... That is a very interesting approach.
Yes interesting. I guess where i'm thinking is its clear that movement is configurable. We see most mobs move the same kinds of ways. Then you have mobs that don't move unless interacted with (shot) then we have hyper movement which most mobs on Cyrene seem to have scuttling about. Then we have mobs stuck in trees/rocks/buildings. So these observations kind of lead me to the view that mining is just a reconfiguration of the same mechanism as hunting. Just presented differently.
 
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