Pay-to-Play Theory

[fresco]

Here is the way my Pay-to-Play theory works
(i use 90% number as a tt-return value to simplify my illustration)

i also round things up to make it faster - idea is to see the pattern of a simple Pay-to-Play model.

Ofcause there were globals, but i just take "tt-return theory average" over this length of a run (one hunting session was 30% return, but then 485ped global...) so:


1000 peds total (deposited over this run, not all at once)
900
810
730
650
590
540
490
440
395
350
320
290
260
230
210
190
170
165
150
135
120
105
95
84
76
69
63
58
55
50
45
40
36
32
29
26
23
21
19
17
16
14
13
12
11
9
3
0

If the time to make all this runs added together and initial 1000 divided by that you get Pay-to-Play rate.

For me it took about 20 hrs: -5$ per hour...
(i wish there was a way to see time online in you account somewhere, like we can see all items across all worlds...)

11 years ago on neconus, i had about -12$ per hour Pay-to-Play cost over more then a year long run...

so as skills or whatever improve and time passed and cost to play went down 50%...
or maybe it is simply a Loot 2.0 number....

Hourly cost to play would, perhaps keep going down infinitely aiming to reach Zero but never actually reaching it,

OR will go into positive if I trigger a "profit avatar" setting... there was a theory in the past that this was assigned upon avatar creation... and can not be changed, maybe now it can be.

PS. In support of this thought - casino slots have a "tt-return" value (what is it 98%?), however there is no "skill" factor. In EU there is a skill factor, so this why it has not been classified as gambling...

So what is your "Pay to Play Average"?

 

[messi91]

planning to add a " Play to win" version soon?

 

[Ferial]

(one hunting session was 30% return, but then 485ped global...) so:

Either you're terrible at math, or you're doing something horribly wrong. Just based on this statement alone.

To answer the topic:
My hourly cost to play varies far too much depending on activity to give a blanket figure on it. Given my deposits over the past 11 years though, in cost per hour of entertainment, I would say it has been worth it. Looking at that figure as a whole though I would have liked to have progressed further in game than I have, but I have also done quite a bit of stupid and expensive stuff just for the fun of it.


Also 1k ped on card for LT mature, you must know that that is not the best of ideas?

 

[Evey]

You sent me to this thread but what does it mean?
I see no pay-to-play theory, that is basic math and even if you start with 10mil ped, fighting the tt war with MA, will lead to 0 if you throw everything in the TT, that's gambling.
Cost / hr means nothing in this game if you know what you must do.
The "profit avatar" setting is triggered by your choices ingame.

 

[fresco]

You sent me to this thread but what does it mean?
I see no pay-to-play theory, that is basic math and even if you start with 10mil ped, fighting the tt war with MA, will lead to 0 if you throw everything in the TT, that's gambling.
Cost / hr means nothing in this game if you know what you must do.
The "profit avatar" setting is triggered by your choices ingame.

my conclusion was that you had to cycle through "fire the gun enough times" to have a total cost of ammo and decay spent to be about 2.48 million peds to "loose" 62k as 2.5%. I just wanted you to confirm/deny that. (if thats true, your cost to play is about $2.50 per hour, my gross estimate of your potential ingame time)

Which will imply you shooting through $100USD (1000peds) per hour every day for 12 hours straight since January 1, 2020. Did you do that!?"

That is the part that got left in the other thread.


My "Theory" is that there is a "Pay to Play" Average, that adjusts as your avatar accumulates skills.

if you know what you must do

The effects of this "knowing" come after the "Pay to Play Average" that is based on your avatar.
So if you dont care for the former - you are using entropia as a pure entertainment - not a gambling at all, not even a lottery - because skill gain modifies Pay-to-Play Average factor.


The one can play stocks or poker for the profits - as i pointed out, you need to burn through 1000 peds 12 hours every day since Jan 1, 2020 to hike 2.5% to 62k. I find it hard to believe that this effort will be justified by any "profit" less than $100-200kUSD... even if it is a macro that does the clicking.

 

[fresco]

Either you're terrible at math, or you're doing something horribly wrong. Just based on this statement alone.

To answer the topic:
My hourly cost to play varies far too much depending on activity to give a blanket figure on it. Given my deposits over the past 11 years though, in cost per hour of entertainment, I would say it has been worth it. Looking at that figure as a whole though I would have liked to have progressed further in game than I have, but I have also done quite a bit of stupid and expensive stuff just for the fun of it.


Also 1k ped on card for LT mature, you must know that that is not the best of ideas?

I am not complaining, i have my share of fun and frustration in a nicely balanced way lol - i am just curious of my theory.

so what do you think your "Pay-to-Play" Per-Hour Cost Average?
I know single session cost vary - hence my example of 485global. this why i am talking average over a defined period of time is and was (actual dollar/ped value)?
for example in 2009 i was running at about $15 per hour cost for a year or so, but then 2 hofs of 11000 and 16000 dropped it down to $10... for that year.

 

[Evey]

I find it hard to believe that this effort will be justified by any "profit" less than $100-200kUSD... even if it is a macro that does the clicking.

So you loose 7-12 $ ped / hour in order make it to a point where it only justify to get minimum 100-200k $ in half a year?

During events, where I shoot the most, I may run a setup that burns 3200ped / hr so best is to make the math to fit your style and your expectations because there are people willing to pay to have fun, IRL, there are people working for 10c/hr and there are people that work for 100o$/hr and a whole variety in between. Find the one that makes you happy


These numbers... they don't mean much to you anyway, you keep throwing them....

11 years ago on neconus, i had about -12$ per hour Pay-to-Play cost over more then a year long run...

A few years ago i run about a year of neconu hunting log and concluded that tjis game did cost me exactly about $7 usd per hour to play... (just threw this in here to show i am not completely new...)

People don't track from this perspective, because the period are too different and like I said, it all depends what you do, how you do it...

 

[fresco]

These numbers... they don't mean much to you anyway, you keep throwing them....

my error, i knew that it was more then now (in 2009) so i just put the number, but then i went back to the 2009 thread and found the actual recored - $15 per hour until i hit 2 hofs of 11000 and 16000 that adjusted that year to about $10 per hour.

in reference to "So you loose 7-12 $ ped / hour in order make it to a point where it only justify to get minimum 100-200k $ in half a year?" - I am fine to pay 7-12$USD per hour to be entertained, spending 12hours per day 84hours per week will call for at least 300k per year paycheck. are you getting that?

 

[Evey]

my error, i knew that it was more then now (in 2009) so i just put the number, but then i went back to the 2009 thread and found the actual recored - $15 per hour until i hit 2 hofs of 11000 and 16000 that adjusted that year to about $10 per hour.

in reference to "So you loose 7-12 $ ped / hour in order make it to a point where it only justify to get minimum 100-200k $ in half a year?" - I am fine to pay 7-12$USD per hour to be entertained, spending 12hours per day 84hours per week will call for at least 300k per year paycheck. are you getting that?

Why are you running my turnover with your dps/cost per hour?
Why are you comparing your expectations with other people's expectations?

How much you make or wish to make IRL is your business, just as how much I make on my job or ingame is my business. This is why you won't get any numbers from the profitable avatars, you may get some numbers from loosing avatars that do all the wrong things, all the mistakes, and having wrong expectations, like yourself.
If someone would tell you how much they would profit, it would still not mean anything to you because then you would also go and do another mistake, run your expectations versus their results, getting nothing out of it, not knowing anything about how that person came to profit, with what and what does it mean to them and to their purpose...

The only thing you can and should decide upon, is if what you are currently doing is paying off enough, be it entertainment or fun you pay for. That is all you can do.

 

[fresco]

Why are you running my turnover with your dps/cost per hour?
Why are you comparing your expectations with other people's expectations?

I dont have expectations, i am simply fact checking people's statements to refine my Pay-to-Play theory

and thank you for telling me what i can and cannot do - just like an elected official lol

PS. For me (or anyone for that matter) to spend 84hours per week 7 days per week for 7 month to get your claimed turn over following the game rules, I would have to cease all life activities and exists exclusively in the bedroom with laptop. This is not a reality, so either your turnover numbers are bogus or you have a farm with munchkins doing the hunting

 

[Evey]

I dont have expectations

You have. Example 300k / 10hours a day. Another example is below + bonus 7-15-12-10 examples of false assumptions

PS. For me (or anyone for that matter) to spend 84hours per week 7 days per week for 7 month to get your claimed turn over following the game rules, I would have to cease all life activities and exists exclusively in the bedroom with laptop. This is not a reality, so either your turnover numbers are bogus or you have a farm with munchkins doing the hunting

Good luck with your endeavor.

 

[fresco]

You have. Example 300k / 10hours a day. Another example is below + bonus 7-15-12-10 examples of false assumptions

thats not an expectation - its a reality: a certified plumber or electrician or entry level software engineer will earn that much if that many hours are put in.


and for the latter: it works for me in the following way - If i decide to spend a weekend shooting, I know i need my mom to give me $100 bucks to pay for that.

 

[Evey]

and for the latter: it works for me in the following way - If i decide to spend a weekend shooting, I know i need my mom to give me $100 bucks to pay for that.

In your case you will need your mom to pay for your Entropia hunting forver because you can't get the basics
But best send her to this forum, maybe she knows how to teach you so she won't have to pay forever...

 

[fresco]

well, in 2009 that was $200 that she had to give me... so there is a progress!



so my Pay-per-Play theory is to estimate when that amount will hit a number close to Zero...

 

[MikeH]

Entropia is a pyramid of skills,gear,knowledge . Those who are at the top dont pay for their play time

 

[~ Cirrus ~]

5$/hour is also the minimum average that I have found after a certain level (for hunting, I would say from L35-45).

But expect some reprobation here...
And be sure it will always come from people who have invested a lot in this "game".

People who are more investor/trader than gamer.
Or weird players who deposit astronomic sums and have their avatars playing 24/7 endlessly...

While recently I advised a very well known, and very present player (one of those "important participant of EU"), that his behaviour was extremely selfish (I won't name him and I won't go into details).
He didn't even seem to understand the message, it really surprised him..
So he told me that this game being a purely capitalist game, then egoism is an important asset.

So the big guys eat the little guys, that's how it works.
And so, thanks to the change of MA concerning the game, the investors/traders eat the gamers.
This is EU's present and future.

Believe only what you see...
Wait no, don't even believe what you see.
EU is a world of sharks dressed as Care Bears.

I think I'm gonna end up letting those sharks eat each other...
When there's no more players to pay these people dividends and various taxes, we'll see where the bloodbath ends.

Sorry if I seem to have strayed a bit from topic, but I'm reacting in advance to the turn this thread will inevitably take...

 

[fresco]

5$/hour is also the minimum average that I have found after a certain level (for hunting, I would say from L35-45).

5$/hour at L35-45 - Hunting

L35-45, refers to highest hunting profession level, like laser pistoleer L35, right?

 

[~ Cirrus ~]

5$/hour at L35-45 - Hunting

L35-45, refers to highest hunting profession level, like laser pistoleer L35, right?

Yes.

It's an average, of course, but it's clearly cheaper below that level. (I'm mostly talking about hunt)
I think it's a logical way to get people hooked on...
Anyone who gets to L30-40 in EU is ready to be cooked.



I want to add something.
You say that the game, back in the day, cost not $5, but $10 an hour on average.

I think a lot of people don't realize how radical a change 2.0 has been.
The change is such that the game before 2.0, and the game after 2.0, are not even comparable, they're two completely different games.

Before there was still a "chance" factor, which no longer exists today.
The loot was not directly based on expenses.
For example a mob would have given the same loot, no matter who killed it and the cost, and that's why eco was really important.

The importance of eco today is only apparent, it is completely artificial.
If someone next to me kills a Trox and get a HOF 1K, it's obvious that if I had killed this Trox instead, I would have had a completely different loot, probably 3-4PED.
A lot of people aren't aware of that yet.

What I mean here is that before 2.0 the game was expensive, but people were ok to lose because they had a chance to win.
That's not the case today. (in terms of TT)
The only chance to really win by hunting now is to catch an item for which other players will be willing to pay a lot of MU.
And the chances of that happening are so ridiculous, that even if it does happen, you'll have already lost 15 times the price of the item before you manage to loot it...

Basically, before 2.0 you could lose a lot and quickly, but you could also win. (I don't say it was easy)
Nowadays it's true that you lose a little less quickly, but you're only losing.

It took me less than two weeks to realize what 2.0 is, and to start asking to go reverse (with no real hope).
Some people still don't understand after several years...

If some people accept this, because they see this game as a simple "entertainment" (and I'm afraid that's what MA try to sell to us now), I advise them to try other video games, which they can play 24/7 for 20$/month. (that is basically 4 hours of EU)
Just to compare what's comparable.

But I'm talking for nothing of course...
MA has a perfect business today, they won't change anything, not even a iota.
They even borrow money from investors (deeds), which they pay back quietly with the players' money... Life is sweet.

 

[fresco]

What I mean here is that before 2.0 the game was expensive, but people were ok to lose because they had a chance to win.
That's not the case today. (in terms of TT)
The only chance to really win by hunting now is to catch an item for which other players will be willing to pay a lot of MU.
And the chances of that happening are so ridiculous, that even if it does happen, you'll have already lost 15 times the price of the item before you manage to loot it...

but Evey still wins

 

[~ Cirrus ~]

but Evey still wins

Believe only what you see...
Wait no, don't even believe what you see.
EU is a world of sharks dressed as Care Bears.

 

[fresco]

Believe only what you see...
Wait no, don't even believe what you see.
EU is a world of sharks dressed as Care Bears.

I actually met quite a few of them in person.

 

[TheRock]

Lets see...
My mining sheet for 2020 till today shows something else.

 

[Mega]

As many of you know (or at least suspect), Mindark has let the whole Bot Situation get completely out of hand.

Any real players left? Good luck.

 

[fresco]

 

[~ Cirrus ~]

The forum is often more entertaining than the game itself...
And it's free !

 

[Granny Rowan]

[Moderated: Quote of deleted post removed]

Does it not occur to you that many 'investors', a word you seem to treat with contempt, are players too. Those that own LAs, shops, ships and deeds may well have achieved that without major depo's. It is done through setting ped aside after a HOF or glpbal (buying deeds) and then using that reserve for purchases later.
Shooting mobs is by no means the only way to 'play the game'
Being an LA owner, shop owner, ship owner is also gameplay, and often in more ways than you seem to understand. Deeds are the only passive investments, but used wisely even they are just a means to an end.

Yes I have deposited in game in the past like most players when building skills, it takes ped to play. But as my skills improved, as I learned how to give less to MA and occasionally make a profit, I learned to set ped aside from the bigger hits, to use later instead of depoing more.

examples:

LA owners need to acquire or make fertilizer to keep the lands stocked with mobs. They need to choose the mobs to meet customer expectations, and source thee DNA to do that. They should ideally also run events and track the globals/HOFs in order to award prizes

Shop owners do not wave a wand each morning and the shop magically restocks, nor do they buy from AH to resell in shops, as that would mean them always being more expensive and be the death of their business. Instead many shop owners are among the heaviest hunters/miners/crafters in game as they beaver away to provide the service they do. They may or may not have invested a little to buy the shop (bought and stocked mine from ped I saved up in game), but to stock it and re-stock it continually takes a massive amount of game play as well as trading. (Always cheaper to get it yourself rather than buy resources, if you can)

Ship owners, again they probably but not always invested to get that ship (over 50% of mine was paid for with in-game ped), but a ship earns nothing unless it is busy, which requires guess what…game play from the owner and crew.

So instead of projecting this fantasy maths, how about you learn to play the game, re-assess what you hunt, how you hunt and work on cutting your losses, which with experience and skills should be normal. Instead of criticising others and how they play, maybe ask nicely for hints and tips on how to improve your gameplay and reduce your losses. None of us can always profit, and newer players will always lose a greater percentage as they climb that learning curve, But higher skills don't mean you have to hunt bigger mobs, it is one of the commonest mistakes.

 

[~ Cirrus ~]

Does it not...

So first of all, just so you know:

"All liars have blue hair", DO NOT SAY that all people with blue hair are liars.
It seemed obvious to me, but apparently it isn't to everyone...


My posts aren't a diatribe against all the big investors, traders and landlords.
But rather against those of them who;

1/ Are aware of how the game really works since 2.0 (contrary to you apparently), who understand that today you can't win by simply playing (hunting/mining/crafting), and that you have to run a business to do so.

2/ Understand by deduction that the money they can earn will always come from the losses of the "players who play".

3/ And that's the most important thing that makes me move up the ladder, Lying voluntarily in order to give false hope to people, mainly new players, so that their business is always fed by losses of those players.

Then concerning the categories I talk about in the previous posts, there are of course nuances in all of this, everything is never all black or all white...

The extreme being the big owner of Deed who doesn't play at all.
It seems really obvious to me, and I'm sorry for those who don't understand the evidence, that these people are like vultures who always hope for more deposits (and thus losses) from players.

I think MA should have started to buy back the CLDs little by little, instead of letting the planet partners create new ones, which is an aberration...
But that's another problem.


As for the advices you give, like choosing mobs carefully, not hunting too big mob, etc...
You have to understand that I know how this game works better than you do.
I know it sounds presumptuous, but that's the reality.
I fully understand how this game works, from A to Z, which is not the case for many...
But most new players obviously don't, then they will believe this advices are still valid.
Then that kind of advice you're giving is exactly what I'm upset about, because if it was true before 2.0, it's completely obsolete today, and that's what a lot of people have a hard time understanding or accepting.

As far as the "game" part is concerned, skill isn't useful anymore (except to max an item) but everything is faked now.
Knowledge isn't useful anymore, and more important, even cleverness is useless, no "good choices" will help you anymore.

By the way, no matter what you say, most people who run a business know that.
Those who are half players and half businessmen, or those who are players and owners of tons of CLDs, do it just to cover their loss at the minimum.

That's not why I signed up in 2006...

And I just want the new players, the "average" players, those who deposit small amounts every month, to know that.

Because those people are still the only fuel of this game.
For MA, for the deeds owners, and for traders.

And the day when there are no more players, and there are only traders and deed owners left, it would all fall apart in a snap.
Some people know that, and that's why they lie.

Also I want to congratulate MA every day, for turning a great game into a capitalist nightmare.
Like we don't have enough of the real world...

 

[Evey]

I fully understand how this game works, from A to Z, which is not the case for many...

I have some bad news for you.
Despite the fact that you say quite often you know a lot about the game, it would seem you really don't know the basics.
Your losses do not go to other players since loot 2.0, when it was possible to tt profit with a dpp over 3.15~. They used to, via loot pool, to those who had high dpp. Now they don't. And skill does matter, looter profession reduces your losses.
The only source of profit/reduced loss in this game is from markup sold. Markup bought is not a loss. It's a choice. This is the basic idea of this game since the begining, but they changed a bit the way the average loot works. Now you can't tt profit anymore, long term, but you have to sell your loot to the market. And yes, that would imply that is the game is alive and has players, there would be a market, that doesn't make us, the rest of the players, vultures. There are various opportunities in the game and demand sets the price of loot etc.

 

[~ Cirrus ~]

I have some bad news for you.
Despite the fact that you say quite often you know a lot about the game, it would seem you really don't know the basics.
Your losses do not go to other players since loot 2.0, when it was possible to tt profit with a dpp over 3.15~. They used to, via loot pool, to those who had high dpp. Now they don't. And skill does matter, looter profession reduces your losses.
The only source of profit/reduced loss in this game is from markup sold. Markup bought is not a loss. It's a choice. This is the basic idea of this game since the begining, but they changed a bit the way the average loot works. Now you can't tt profit anymore, long term, but you have to sell your loot to the market. And yes, that would imply that is the game is alive and has players, there would be a market, that doesn't make us, the rest of the players, vultures. There are various opportunities in the game and demand sets the price of loot etc.

Ahhh the MU..

And if you read again you'll see I never talk about a "loot pool".

That's not bad news, that's fake news.
But I don't know if you lie or just don't know what you talk about.. The result is the same anyway.

 

[Evey]

Ahhh the MU..

And if you read again you'll see I never talk about a "loot pool".

That's not bad news, that's fake news.
But I don't know if you lie or just don't know what you talk about.. The result is the same anyway.

That's exactly how the fake news start and are carried over, a lazy person doesn't want to process the (public) information and finds it easier to blame everything that goes wrong and for their mistakes, on some made up BS, calling everyone liars.
I think I cycled in last mayhem alone the amount u cycled since you joined the game. I do pretty well for myself and you're only bitching, it's obvious you know what you talk
No, I don't want people to deposit more, I want people to play smarter, that way the little they deposited will last them much longer and or make them a profit, even if small, it's still something in a video game they like.