Return penalty for using crit buffs

girtsn

Slayer
Joined
Dec 7, 2005
Posts
7,685
Location
Belgium
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Girts Smilgs Niedra
Is it Zayka or some lithu-russian?

In any case, yes you are right I miss something in my brain for trying to change something and buying the advertised viridian guns with a buff effect, same for the mod viceroy. And then even more so to try to change again after loot 2.0 and buying the easter 2016 ring. Well stupid is for life.

Also thank you for the very relevant reply to the thread! + rep
Didnt read all, but what i can say - dont think and cry as much as possible Smilgs! Also u have to change ur signature to something like: "Have no brain. Its just me skilling crying"...
 

sachi.mk2

Old Alpha
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Posts
814
This is not a change tho. It was always so that the more you spent killing a mob the more loot you got. You forget that efficiency still is 7% of the calc. 7% is HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE :smoke:

Yup, 7% is huge, but in reality most players have a weapon+amp between 60%-70%, so its a fairly minor improvement of 0.7% - the IMK2 giving between 1.4%-2.1%. Pretty much guarantee loss for all players with this level of MU.
 
Last edited:

sachi.mk2

Old Alpha
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Posts
814
I think Mindark made a claim that loot return % would be improved for 98% of players - referred to as a "Robin Hood" update.

Now Charlie has admitted to loot being tied to cost-to-kill, plus a small weapon eff factor, I'd be interested to hear of a explanation for how switching from dmg-to-pec to cost-to-kill, and nerfing all the crit buff items people own, would improve loot returns for 98%.
 
Last edited:

minim

Elite
Joined
Dec 15, 2010
Posts
3,288
Location
Bergen, Norway
Society
Rangers
Avatar Name
Mini MiniM Mine
Yup, 7% is huge, but in reality most players have a weapon+amp between 60%-70%, so its a fairly minor improvement of 0.7% - the IMK2 giving between 1.4%-2.1%. Pretty much guarantee loss for all players with this level of MU.

I feel sorry for anyone stuck with expensive crit items, this news will have wiped a huge amount of value off them. Perhaps MA should have introduced Loot 2.0 before players invested over 20k in these items, but player welfare always takes a backseat to generating revenue.

Yes, but still eco matters. 2+ prosent is a big difference if you plan to hunt some. Not that it's possible to do that now with loot 2.0 but I'm sure MA will adjust it when they can't keep up with the withdrawals anymore so I'm sitting thight ^^
 

fred5283

Prowler
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Posts
1,295
Location
Michigan
Society
Guess Who??
Avatar Name
Norian Norian Xx
+crit items are worthless!

Buying all mk2 scopes for +100 and Easter rings for +100

Mr. Girtsn, you got the gear and skillz, I think u need to evaluate your hunting game/style. Once you get it right, you'll be back in the green.
 

livius

Alpha
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Posts
667
Location
Germany
Society
Skyfall
Avatar Name
Livius Beyond Godlike
If somebody it's selling Easter ring 2016 just pm me , considering 2.0 expect at a fair price.
I think you're just unlucky and you should try to hunt something else.
 

RickEngland

Elite
Joined
Nov 14, 2011
Posts
4,333
Location
Essex England UK
Society
Jurai Blood
Avatar Name
Rickard Rick England
Ma said the eco stat matters for looting rare stuff, which really explains a lot in the 12 years I've been here (with moving goal posts, to keep most of us out of the picture).

So if you want to loot something rare you need the gear, something with super efficiency. None of us know what those limits are though. Could be 65% or 80%+ who knows.

Plus I assume it doesn't matter what the item is, just as long as it's got the efficiency number to open that special loot.

I'm too damn scared to run the A106 I bought, and scared to run some whips too using a 20% taming pet I just unlocked that took me 1.5 years (not the Royal another one).

Just can't afford anymore of this pain, you guys are shitting the life out of me.

Rick
 
Last edited:

Dennis blighter

Prowler
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Posts
1,244
Location
Alaska
Society
Lost Renegades
Avatar Name
Thanos Blighter Havoc
So based on charlies post and reading this whole thread, would that also apply to all attachments? Where scopes and sights are paid back in per mob loot accordingly? Where you would lets say still get 97% of the decay paid back?
 

TeesMaarKhan

Old Alpha
Joined
Aug 19, 2011
Posts
902
Location
London
Society
Shaolin
Avatar Name
Tees Maar Khan - Formerly The Crouching Tiger 2006 - 2011
This has got nothing to do with the OP and his tread ...This is me strictly trying to adapt and recoup some losses...

Ice Cream Anyone while you enjoy this thread? $5 Longtime :D

 

atomicstorm

Slayer
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Posts
7,633
Location
Tennessee, USA
Society
Entropialoot.com
Avatar Name
MeLoveYou LongTime FiveDolla
This has got nothing to do with the OP and his tread ...This is me strictly trying to adapt and recoup some losses...

Ice Cream Anyone while you enjoy this thread? $5 Longtime :D


Cutting back on sugar (and PCF) for health reasons. Thanks though. :dunce:
 

BBpunisher

Stalker
Joined
May 23, 2010
Posts
2,021
Location
OR, USA
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
BB BB Punisher
I predict MA will add some new items to strong boxes soon! New buffs! MA doesn't know how it will affect the future but buy now!
 

Xcessive

Alpha
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Posts
598
I predict MA will add some new items to strong boxes soon! New buffs! MA doesn't know how it will affect the future but buy now!

you are 100% correct. as they dream up different 'efficiency' mechanics... they will take the place of the previous 5% FB and allow ppl to go back to 'normal' --> i mean ubers that is
 

Dan59

Stalker
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Posts
1,957
Location
Slovenia
Society
dust
Avatar Name
Dan Dan Petrov
MA couldn't just nerf the EST sets. They said, long ago, they would not change items properties.

It is surprise for me too. Cant recognize typical MA style.
They had in past methods
1. like "bug fix" - if you remember removing electric damage from axes and nerfing whips and chips on min damage.
2. Rule changing - if you remember amp nerf (no more opalo with A105 but properties didn't change)
Or more recent all investigator profession kill after scanner gate and my scanner have same stats, same reload, same range, same decay just rule is changed.
They could simply change rule without inventing loot 2.0.
Let say all guns with eco more than 2.8 can from now on damage mob once in 5 minit so no any change on item stats.
Ops I mean all EST and similar armors and all magic items can from now on be used for 20 seconds every five minit.
Not possible? But they did it with scanners.
*old-timers will remember fap nerf by changing rule to heal 1/4 when moving instead full.
 
Last edited:

wizz

Elite
Joined
May 29, 2005
Posts
4,139
Location
Brabant
Society
The Ministry
Avatar Name
Wizzina Wizz Pale Moon
It is surprise for me too. Cant recognize typical MA style.
They had in past methods
1. like "bug fix" - if you remember removing electric damage from axes and nerfing whips and chips on min damage.
2. Rule changing - if you remember amp nerf (no more opalo with A105 but properties didn't change)
Or more recent all investigator profession kill after scanner gate and my scanner have same stats, same reload, same range, same decay just rule is changed.
They could simply change rule without inventing loot 2.0.
Let say all guns with eco more than 2.8 can from now on damage mob once in 5 minit so no any change on item stats.
Ops I mean all EST and similar armors and all magic items can from now on be used for 20 seconds every five minit.
Not possible? But they did it with scanners.
*old-timers will remember fap nerf by changing rule to heal 1/4 when moving instead full.

Yes, and this is called balancing.
EU is dynamic, right?
 

girtsn

Slayer
Joined
Dec 7, 2005
Posts
7,685
Location
Belgium
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Girts Smilgs Niedra
couple of things in retrospect
* MA will not comment on their marketing, selling and still continuing to sell the crit buff items - they created a hype for and then nerfed completely in terms of dpp causing one of the biggest and quickest devaluation in the timeline - in my opinion this can best be described as an still ongoing scam
* there was also no reply on why instead of going the predictable way (introducing decay on buff rings) which was hinted in the item description, their dpp effect on returns was nullified altogether (oh wait is it still going to come and make them even worse???)
* loot 2.0 is working perfectly according to the only post-feedback on it, the huge deviations from their claimed statistics are within margin of error
* return % should not change when using crit buffs according to them though data seems to indicate otherwise and thus quite some big players are avoiding using them altogether
* MA does not (want to) grasp the effect of what a couple of % difference in tt return means on big turnover
* however bad individual returns get, they would also never investigate the possibility of a bug in the return system (well this I knew already from my experiences in 2011-2013 and 2016) - you are on your own when that happens as the return system is a black box, it might be a set of rules that apply selectively regardless of the items/skills
 
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Posts
2,265
couple of things in retrospect
* MA will not comment on their marketing, selling and still continuing to sell the crit buff items - they created a hype for and then nerfed completely in terms of dpp causing one of the biggest and quickest devaluation in the timeline - in my opinion this can best be described as an still ongoing scam
* there was also no reply on why instead of going the predictable way (introducing decay on buff rings) which was hinted in the item description, their dpp effect on returns was nullified altogether (oh wait is it still going to come and make them even worse???)
* loot 2.0 is working perfectly according to the only post-feedback on it, the huge deviations from their claimed statistics are within margin of error
* return % should not change when using crit buffs according to them though data seems to indicate otherwise and thus quite some big players are avoiding using them altogether
* MA does not (want to) grasp the effect of what a couple of % difference in tt return means on big turnover
* however bad individual returns get, they would also never investigate the possibility of a bug in the return system (well this I knew already from my experiences in 2011-2013 and 2016) - you are on your own when that happens as the return system is a black box, it might be a set of rules that apply selectively regardless of the items/skills

when did MA create a hype for crit items? any proof? No. the hype is done by the players after they found out how to exploit the system with it. if theyd hyped it there would be more and better crit rings. most of the last seasonal rings were quite crappy in terms of this.

the effect of crit items is not nullified. it works now as it always should have been. you dont get a direct return % advantage as it was before but it just lets you buy more loot tickets for the same money as without crit items which can or can not result in a better return. the chance for it is just bigger.

the reason why big players sell their crit items is because the bubble is about to burst / bursted. they wanne rescue as much as they can on their "investment" after noticing it. when the market calmed down they r going to buy em back for a real price and not an inflated one.

who forces you to do big turnover on fucking stupid eomons? nobody. just use ur fucking brain for once maybe?

this whole crying is just ridiculous. can you try to think for once in your life? or you keep being stubborn and do the same shit youve always done while expecting different results? you are a prime example that a big wallet and huge turnover doesnt directly correlate with game knowledge.

and with you i mean all of you girtsns. no matter how many different girtsns you are.
 

bigPaul

Guardian
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Posts
275
Avatar Name
Paul Ray Spinn
Originally Posted by Charlie|MindArk
Is the current loot calculation based predominantly on cost spent per mob or not?
Yes.

*If the buffs decrease cost spent, does this also reduce amount of tt received?
*This doesn't mean of course, that the TT return % will suffer.

Yes and yes, it has no effect on return %.
Efficiency of the weapon however does affect return %.
It is not based on average cost to kill, it is based on actual cost to kill
.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As stated above, those buffs (let's include also the reload buffs in this topic) don't affect the % return,
so they affect "only" the so called (by MindArk) "optimal loot" :
the markup value of the items you get, which is important, and that is influenced by overall hunting cost.

Buffs are also useful in pvp, and in general they reduce your risk of being killed in a fight.
 

Vagrant

Old Alpha
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Posts
852
Society
Magnum Opus
Avatar Name
Vagrant Arangar Melanwil
Relative to what is being discussed here..
Anyone know when the next VU is to be expected? Is it around Halloween mayhem?

Could be one of the most important VU's in a very long time.
 

KullXP

Prowler
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Posts
1,436
Society
~ZEN~
Avatar Name
Kull KullXP Holland
Got told about this thread and figured I would share,

Basically what has happened is MA is wanting to start a new wave of items and had to adjust the loot system to accommodate these items so that they would work right.

We have more and more players pushing over level 100 and I am sure there going to introduce bigger badder gear, attachments, mobs, (for both high and low lvl) that just would not work with the old system.

Save your peds, hold off for a bit, then get ready to buy up all the new stuff that comes out and you'll get those returns up im sure. ATM you'll just have to power through the current system and items available .

Get ready for new exciting things! :yay:

(And much more stuff to buy ;) )
 

Eli

Prowler
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Posts
1,284
Avatar Name
Elissia Eli Talor
Got told about this thread and figured I would share,

Basically what has happened is MA is wanting to start a new wave of items and had to adjust the loot system to accommodate these items so that they would work right.

We have more and more players pushing over level 100 and I am sure there going to introduce bigger badder gear, attachments, mobs, (for both high and low lvl) that just would not work with the old system.

Save your peds, hold off for a bit, then get ready to buy up all the new stuff that comes out and you'll get those returns up im sure. ATM you'll just have to power through the current system and items available .

Get ready for new exciting things! :yay:

(And much more stuff to buy ;) )


Does that mean you're going to rebuy some gear and come hunt? :yay:
 
Joined
May 20, 2007
Posts
9,989
Location
England
Society
Guess Who
Avatar Name
George Ace Skywalker
Relative to what is being discussed here..
Anyone know when the next VU is to be expected? Is it around Halloween mayhem?

Could be one of the most important VU's in a very long time.

Great, another nerf!

 

minim

Elite
Joined
Dec 15, 2010
Posts
3,288
Location
Bergen, Norway
Society
Rangers
Avatar Name
Mini MiniM Mine
Got told about this thread and figured I would share,

Basically what has happened is MA is wanting to start a new wave of items and had to adjust the loot system to accommodate these items so that they would work right.

We have more and more players pushing over level 100 and I am sure there going to introduce bigger badder gear, attachments, mobs, (for both high and low lvl) that just would not work with the old system.

Save your peds, hold off for a bit, then get ready to buy up all the new stuff that comes out and you'll get those returns up im sure. ATM you'll just have to power through the current system and items available .

Get ready for new exciting things! :yay:

(And much more stuff to buy ;) )

Who can really afford to hunt with "bigger badder gear" with loot 2.0?
 

Detritus

Sel-requested Deactivation
Joined
Sep 25, 2016
Posts
1,084
Avatar Name
Detritus the Troll
Who can really afford to hunt with "bigger badder gear" with loot 2.0?


Now that you mention it; since I've scaled back my play from being a grinder, I've just been doing 45-60 minute hunts in the morning with my coffee. Small mobs, halix, nusul, that kind of thing - about 200-300 ped spend. I'm consistently getting 60-70% returns, with the occasional 180-200% that brings me back up. Currently averaging 80% return. Not enough turnover yet to mean anything, but it certainly paints a grim picture for casual players just coming in to this game. I can't see anybody wanting to stick around after a week of this, not fully understanding that you have to turn over tens of thousands of ped just to crawl up to 92-95%, which is far too expensive of a return rate for heavy grinding anyway.

So casual play sucks. Heavy grinding sucks. I don't get it MindArk, where are you going with this? :scratch2:
 

Kerham

Elite
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Posts
4,862
Location
to the moon and back
Society
Project Y
Avatar Name
Kerawan Kerham Maddahy
I appreciate Charlie's replies to the thread, it's for sure improved communication compared to the past. However, I am honestly not sure the situation is as stated. I would encourage MA devs to take a look again at the implementation of this new paradigm. I am not a math prodigy to use a correct vocabulary, I am not sure how to explain it, but multipliers are not consistent with the change.

By "multiplier" I understand a, well, doh multiplier applied to the cost to kill which results in the calculation of the loot. On one side, the size of the multipliers (e.g. min and max possible for a given mob/class of hp/whatever is the main criteria) and on the other size the distribution of these multipliers (e.g. chance to get higher or less than 1) seem to lag compared to the change. That is, previously to loot 2.0 we had null multipliers (no loot) and micro-ones (for blazar & nova loots). These two cathegories disappeared (a change which, from an atmosphere point of view, I welcome).

Considering that the speed to kill remained the same (independent from the loot effect of the buffs), (that is +- on a large sample mob, say atrox, I would asume they are killed at least as often as before 2.0), my personal impression, which might aswell be wrong as f* is that together with cutting the lowest possible multipliers, also the average size of big multipliers went down.

The problem is, while this change makes sense on the overall population, with an atomic number of data points, for every individual player this drags down the possible tt return.

My very wild guess is that taking off CH out of the loot calculation, the loot events fall beneath the thresholds of average-big multipliers, which multipliers remained defined with a function not adapted to the new interval of inputs.

(Yes I know EST and big rings are on a handful of avatars, but almost each other player has maybe a L Ares or an Imp).

Again, apologies if what I said is ridiculous and a waste of time reading.

Best,
K.
 
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Posts
2,265
I appreciate Charlie's replies to the thread, it's for sure improved communication compared to the past. However, I am honestly not sure the situation is as stated. I would encourage MA devs to take a look again at the implementation of this new paradigm. I am not a math prodigy to use a correct vocabulary, I am not sure how to explain it, but multipliers are not consistent with the change.

By "multiplier" I understand a, well, doh multiplier applied to the cost to kill which results in the calculation of the loot. On one side, the size of the multipliers (e.g. min and max possible for a given mob/class of hp/whatever is the main criteria) and on the other size the distribution of these multipliers (e.g. chance to get higher or less than 1) seem to lag compared to the change. That is, previously to loot 2.0 we had null multipliers (no loot) and micro-ones (for blazar & nova loots). These two cathegories disappeared (a change which, from an atmosphere point of view, I welcome).

Considering that the speed to kill remained the same (independent from the loot effect of the buffs), (that is +- on a large sample mob, say atrox, I would asume they are killed at least as often as before 2.0), my personal impression, which might aswell be wrong as f* is that together with cutting the lowest possible multipliers, also the average size of big multipliers went down.

The problem is, while this change makes sense on the overall population, with an atomic number of data points, for every individual player this drags down the possible tt return.

My very wild guess is that taking off CH out of the loot calculation, the loot events fall beneath the thresholds of average-big multipliers, which multipliers remained defined with a function not adapted to the new interval of inputs.

(Yes I know EST and big rings are on a handful of avatars, but almost each other player has maybe a L Ares or an Imp).

Again, apologies if what I said is ridiculous and a waste of time reading.

Best,
K.

to be fair, i only see heavy grinders crying who do the same as before.

and i hear lots of the more casual players do a lot better than before. maybe its time to stop crying and to go test shit out yourself. im doing this all the time since loot 2.0 and im doing good so far. more stable returns than before but a lot of nice side affects with loot 2.0. biggest for me is that there is no overkill penalty anymore. or at least not tt return % wise. i never really liked to use finisher and now i dont need anymore.
the tt return overall is more or less the same as before. more small multis and less bigger ones which results in lot of 90-95% return runs and a few with 150% +- to even it out. but when you go and shoot a few k 50 ped per kill mobs, its no wonder you lose ur ass on a bad wave. bankroll management is more important than ever.
 

Detritus

Sel-requested Deactivation
Joined
Sep 25, 2016
Posts
1,084
Avatar Name
Detritus the Troll
to be fair, i only see heavy grinders crying who do the same as before.

and i hear lots of the more casual players do a lot better than before. maybe its time to stop crying and to go test shit out yourself. im doing this all the time since loot 2.0 and im doing good so far. more stable returns than before but a lot of nice side affects with loot 2.0. biggest for me is that there is no overkill penalty anymore. or at least not tt return % wise. i never really liked to use finisher and now i dont need anymore.
the tt return overall is more or less the same as before. more small multis and less bigger ones which results in lot of 90-95% return runs and a few with 150% +- to even it out. but when you go and shoot a few k 50 ped per kill mobs, its no wonder you lose ur ass on a bad wave. bankroll management is more important than ever.


I'm not doubting what you say, but I am hearing both sides. Some people are saying the returns are good and consistent; more people are saying they aren't. I've heard both claims from all skill levels and budgets.

Too often there seems to be this attitude on the forums that "well this is my experience so it must be true and everyone else who's having a different experience is doing something wrong". I don't believe this is the case.

I think smilgs makes a good point that MA should possibly re-evaluate how the algorithm is working on a more individual level, because averages are just averages. There is certainly a possibility that it is not working as intended across the board, but because a few people are doing well, everything looks hunky dory.
 

sachi.mk2

Old Alpha
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Posts
814
Edit: I dont agree with Loot 2.0 changes and their effect on buff items, but maybe I was being too harsh.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Posts
2,265
Mindark aren't deaf and dumb: they have admitted that Loot 1.0 was a dmg/pec loot system, and they knew creating items that increase the dmg/pec by a signicificant amount would lead to players paying large sums of money for them. I agree with Girts that the storage boxes have been a right scam: entice players to deposit massively to own these rings, when the hype dies down due to over supply and the rings are now a financial burden, nerf their effect.



Really? I've not read or spoken to any players doing "a lot better" in loot 2.0 than loot 1.0.

did MA force you to depo via strongboxes? did you not get what you paid for? you know whats in it, you know the average outcome of those boxes and you took the "risk". and i say "risk" because you lose maybe 5-10% of the dpo value compared to a regular deposit but get the chance of looting something worth more. i know quite a few people who constantly opened the boxes on waves, sold the rings and cycled the money once, withdraw it and did it on risne n repeat, shoveling some serious cash with it. when nobody forces you to buy a product and even gives you other options to get your peds into the game then its not a scam. maybe u should look up the definition.

and i am not doing a lot better than before, but im basically doing exactly the same as before. i wouldnt call myself a heavy grinder, although im regularly hunting 8-10 hours day for weeks. my returns may even be a bit better as i dont need a finisher anymore which were a few % safe lose before loot 2.0

and to be honest, before there were tons of players who did constantly profit with EST abusing with easy 110% tt profit. that money did come from other players. now the est guys dont make 110% tt anymore so their profit from loot 1.0 now spreads over the other players in loot 2.0. that just simply mathematically gives lots of people slightly better returns and a few even a lot better returns than before, depending on their playstyle and cycle amount.
one guy profitting 20k a month or more (and i know several of these) can give 1k players who hunt small a lot better returns in loot 2.0
 

Jhereg

Stalker
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
Posts
1,714
Society
Rangers
Avatar Name
Feng Huan SecretAznMan Zho
So Easter eggs were worth 20-40 ped in tt return before update. Many people bought into that. I still have a large number that are now next to worthless.

Changing how something like this fundamentally works after people bought into the system does tend to cause a good amount of disillusionment for those who thinks MA broke their trust or even betrayed them.

Faith in the system is also important, players need stability to be willing to invest.
 

Eli

Prowler
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Posts
1,284
Avatar Name
Elissia Eli Talor
did MA force you to depo via strongboxes? did you not get what you paid for? you know whats in it, you know the average outcome of those boxes and you took the "risk". and i say "risk" because you lose maybe 5-10% of the dpo value compared to a regular deposit but get the chance of looting something worth more. i know quite a few people who constantly opened the boxes on waves, sold the rings and cycled the money once, withdraw it and did it on risne n repeat, shoveling some serious cash with it. when nobody forces you to buy a product and even gives you other options to get your peds into the game then its not a scam. maybe u should look up the definition.


I think the point is not being forced to buy strongboxes. It's about buying them because players want what is in them and then having those things change into something else months later. If I buy a cow I wouldn't want it to turn into a chicken in 3 months :laugh:
 
  • Like
Reactions: das
Top