The big 3 profession interactions

[psyche]

Was just thinking about the recent thread on that space thruster suggestion. Got me thinking about UL items stopping the profession interactions. The game economy is mainly hunters / miners selling to crafters and then crafters makes the items to sell back to the hunters and miners. If crafters crafts an UL weapon or UL finder, then eventually they got no more hunters and miners to sell to as every hunter and miner will have the weapon and finder they need. This stops the crafters from buying and MU of loot goes down. If everything is L then this cycle can continue indefinitely and game economy will be good. Got me thinking about the recent nanocube change. We can no longer buy nanocubes, instead we can recycle low demand low mu loot into nanocubes so EP crafters are contributing to the economy once again. Since most of the items can recycle into nanocube, this means nanocubes will remain low MU. Got me thinking what if the repair terminal required nanocubes to repair. Maybe even 50% ped 50% nanocube to repair. This way UL item owners still benefit from their very high MU item as they pay minimal MU to use their item. The UL item owners will still contribute to the economy minimally.
Idea just suddenly popped into my head and curious how the forum community feels about this.

 

[Deleted member 69849]

id rather not HAVE to lose on markup just to get enough nanocubes to repair my gear

not a fan of the suggestion :/

 

[Katie Chalmers]

It would be an ok suggestion but I think the nanocube/ped split would have to be lower. Maybe 80% ped and 20% cubes. Maybe this split could be variable and thus be another factor when choosing an unlimited weapon.

But before this happens, decay only melee items would either need to be exempt from this or be converted to ammo consumption because melee would become way too costly.

Alao, there always needs to remain a pathway for independent play. If you have no loot and a broken gun you are forced to trade with another player for loot/nano cubes. While this idea obviously encourages trading we still need a solo pathway, so make the TT weapons also exempt.

Also, nanocubes would need to be produced remotely, say with a refiner, and/or their weight lowered.

 

[NevadaJake]

No thanks. We already contribute heavily by using Enhancers.

 

[Gopher]

It would be an ok suggestion but I think the nanocube/ped split would have to be lower. Maybe 80% ped and 20% cubes. Maybe this split could be variable and thus be another factor when choosing an unlimited weapon.

But before this happens, decay only melee items would either need to be exempt from this or be converted to ammo consumption because melee would become way too costly.

Alao, there always needs to remain a pathway for independent play. If you have no loot and a broken gun you are forced to trade with another player for loot/nano cubes. While this idea obviously encourages trading we still need a solo pathway, so make the TT weapons also exempt.

Also, nanocubes would need to be produced remotely, say with a refiner, and/or their weight lowered.

What if the weapons efficiency dictated the split. So if your weapon has 70% eff, you pay 30% in nanocubes to repair.

 

[deathception]

We might as well add wear and tear decay when you equip a gun and unequip like rings to repair the weapon

 

[Ivo Jahrumble]

Thank you for starting this discussion. Its long due..

Players should unite on this issue as the economy set up as it is does not have enough pressure to generate enough markup to fight the rake. Anytime a player uses the TT it is a leak for the economy.

Given the known average payout of entropia of 95%, IF the economy was sealed off any leaks the base loot should never go below 104% bottom, as the pressure of demand between professions would rise it to a fair level for all players to enjoy. As is, players are actually paying more than they should to play by about 3%.

I challenge anyone to find me 3 indexes that relate the pressure of the economy between the professions in the current state of things! These should sell like cookies, meaning huge turnover and have a av. markup of 107% to 110%.

Unfortunatly most of the playerbase cannot even understand the issue OP is mentioning and still thinks that paying no markup is always better, even if that kills ALL economy. They also fail to understand that any rise in the price of the repair will also mean a small rise in everything else.
Further benefits from this is that all stats from unL items will finally have a real meaning and not hide behind tt repair. If a gun is bad it will be worst with repair having a price, opening a path for the obsoletion of old guns. And a push for upgrading missions of those same guns to sink them....

It is the obvious thing to do when 80% of total turnover in the universe comes from repair if we really want to have a game. If we are only looking for swirlies and the carrot weapon for the single looter.. then carry on as is..

My solution:

Make a set of bps like EP to craft "repair coin". This will be the only thing the repair terminal accepts. weightless, stackable in the money and deeds section.

Comes from whatever cheap recipe the developers think is good, using nanocubes and even animal oil residue and robot residue to give them some use after all these years. Im sure something reealllyyy cheap can be done.

 

[psyche]

id rather not HAVE to lose on markup just to get enough nanocubes to repair my gear

not a fan of the suggestion :/

are you a fan of low MU on your loot? or just sending all your loot to the TT? Because that is what will happen if we keep getting more and more UL items.

 

[Deleted member 69849]

are you a fan of low MU on your loot? or just sending all your loot to the TT?

i am not, but muscle oil is still more profitable than recycling

literally every single piece of loot in my inventory right now is sellable for more than nanocubes. why in the hell would i want to lose that MU just to repair my gear?

Because that is what will happen if we keep getting more and more UL items.

when you assume...

 

[ChairmanEdgewise]

Maybe even 50% ped 50% nanocube to repair. This way UL item owners still benefit from their very high MU item as they pay minimal MU to use their item. The UL item owners will still contribute to the economy minimally.

 

[Deleted member 69849]

eating fries with a fork!?!?!?!?

*flips table*

 

[moondog]

UL vs. L - Regarding the purchase of UL items and Return on Investment. Like many players, I started with (L) items. As I progressed through the game, I invested in (UL) items, starting with defense, then healing, then weapons. In each instance you need to look at the value of the UL item and calculate how many equivalent L items you would use in order to pay for the UL weapon. My L4 Enigma took me 2.5 years to get my ROI back and I play on average 5 hours a day. If you are only a casual player then it maybe unwise to invest in an UL item if it takes too long to get back the ROI. This is where the L items come into their own. Not everyone plays enough to justify the purchase of an UL item and the ARMatrix and dropped weapons fill this gap. I know players who have been playing as long as me who only use (L) so this is less about the economy and more individuals game play. Also, the L element of the economy is very vibrant for low level weapons such as the ARmatrix LR 10 etc where there are very few L options for new players

 

[psyche]

i am not, but muscle oil is still more profitable than recycling

literally every single piece of loot in my inventory right now is sellable for more than nanocubes. why in the hell would i want to lose that MU just to repair my gear?


when you assume...

I might be assuming but I just can't see any reason to buy L. You can literally buy UL items at what ever the MU is for it. Then sell it for nearly the same MU or even more MU when you are ready to move on. I guess I just want to see more reason for L items. For me right now I see this reasoning and I will never buy L items. I don't even know why are there ppl buying those L armatrix weapons. But I guess people are buying them so we can just ignore this issue. But I feel like eventually people will figure out that MU on UL items don't matter and will just pay whatever MU it is and use it until they are ready to sell and move on to the next item.

edit: I guess, I just feel like we're relying on people to stay unaware of this issue to keep the economy going?

 

[Deleted member 69849]

Not everyone has 10k+ PED to lock in an UL setup, most people i know in game just put on some (L), shoot some mobs, sell the loot and call it a day. Only hardcore hunters will be able to lock that mount of ped and yet still have the bankroll to keep shooting with that setup. If they can lock in that kind of ped they deserve the perks. For the rest of us, (L) has its place. Yes the MU is high, but id rather shoot 2k PED than lock in 2k PED and be too poor to shoot.

not everyone is here to min-max and reach the meta

 

[Katie Chalmers]

L isn’t just for low budget. My account values about 150k and I buy cheap low TIR armatrix from crafters under 110%, and looted weapons and MF chips within a markup range of 103%. The markup on these is negligible and for me actually more cost effective than buying a lower DPS UL weapon and breaking enhancers all day. I can very cheaply get into the DPS bracket I want while keeping liquidity and flexibility while I wait for my future UL weapon. If you buy them smart, L can be just as cost effective. The main reason people want UL is because a high intensity hunting cannot be sustained with L options, you will simply exhaust the pool of weapons.
The argument that you can simply buy and resell an UL weapon for net zero once you are finished with it is correct in theory, but if the amount of selling threads on the forums would indicate, this might be more difficult in practice. The market has been in a general decline as living standards are harder to maintain, and the extra supply during TWEN has exasperated things.

 

[psyche]

Not everyone has 10k+ PED to lock in an UL setup, most people i know in game just put on some (L), shoot some mobs, sell the loot and call it a day. Only hardcore hunters will be able to lock that mount of ped and yet still have the bankroll to keep shooting with that setup. If they can lock in that kind of ped they deserve the perks. For the rest of us, (L) has its place. Yes the MU is high, but id rather shoot 2k PED than lock in 2k PED and be too poor to shoot.

not everyone is here to min-max and reach the meta

Makes sense. I guess we'll always have casuals who don't care about min maxing

 

[psyche]

L isn’t just for low budget. My account values about 150k and I buy cheap low TIR armatrix from crafters under 110%, and looted weapons and MF chips within a markup range of 103%. The markup on these is negligible and for me actually more cost effective than buying a lower DPS UL weapon and breaking enhancers all day. I can very cheaply get into the DPS bracket I want while keeping liquidity and flexibility while I wait for my future UL weapon. If you buy them smart, L can be just as cost effective. The main reason people want UL is because a high intensity hunting cannot be sustained with L options, you will simply exhaust the pool of weapons.
The argument that you can simply buy and resell an UL weapon for net zero once you are finished with it is correct in theory, but if the amount of selling threads on the forums would indicate, this might be more difficult in practice. The market has been in a general decline as living standards are harder to maintain, and the extra supply during TWEN has exasperated things.

You can see that you will only buy at a good low MU so there's not much incentive for crafters to make them if they can only sell at low MU. Crafters also want to make profits so they want as much MU as possible. This further supports my case about L weapons being obsolete. If a person can afford to tie up their ped on weapon MU then they will. Only low depo players are forced to pay the L MU.
Your case about the living standards causing MU of UL to drop is caused by IRL situation. Which is out of our control. But IRL situation can also improve. If you buy those UL items at low MU and just wait for IRL situation to improve then theoretically the UL item MU will return and improve and you make some profit. I just see UL items as halting the 3 professions interactions. I imagine if we make all items UL then there will be no more MU. I can also imagine if we make all items L then MU will all go up. Maybe my 50% 50% proposal is too high. We can play around with the %. Maybe 90%ped and 10%nanocube. It will still be advantageous to have UL but just want to bring up the MU of loots in general. Kinda like IVO suggested about sealing off the economy and keeping base MU to 104% or what ever the base MU should be. Just don't make sense to have to TT anything or sell close to TT. I think lowest should be 101% which is shrapnel conversion to ammo.

 

[jwestonmoss]

I actually have a suggestion for this.

So the problem (as I see it) is that UL weapons largely take crafters out of the loop. Tiering components are looted, and if you have good UL weapons you don't need crafting output except for enhancers and amps (assuming you don't have an UL amp).

This percolates through the economy, as loot itself is devalued.

Here's my recommended solution:

Still allow UL gear to be repaired forever just as now. Each time they get repaired, a small percentage of the max durability goes down, until it reaches 40% of the original, nominal maximum TT durability, then it does not degrade further. Of course that number can be tuned.

In order to restore the lost maximum TT (up to and beyond the original max, with no upper limit), a repair kit must be used. These are only crafted, and they use a variety of resources to produce. Their full TT is applied to both current and maximum TT of the UL weapon.

The pros and cons I see with this system are like this, cons first:

CONS:

If they do not use kits, the maximum TT of the UL gear will be reduced, which might shorten some hunting runs or require portable repair units.

If they do use kits, they will pay some markup (though likely not as much as buying L gear, as long as the recipe is simple).

PROS:

Provides a way to increase maximum TT of UL gear (which as far as I know was never possible before)

Provides another method of repairing in the field

Provides some much-needed economic stimulus for the crafting side of the game, including MU on loot


I wouldn't necessarily say this is perfectly balanced (how could anything ever be), but I think it does at least provide a give-and-take approach rather than just picking a winner and loser.

 

[psyche]

I actually have a suggestion for this.

So the problem (as I see it) is that UL weapons largely take crafters out of the loop. Tiering components are looted, and if you have good UL weapons you don't need crafting output except for enhancers and amps (assuming you don't have an UL amp).

This percolates through the economy, as loot itself is devalued.

Here's my recommended solution:

Still allow UL gear to be repaired forever just as now. Each time they get repaired, a small percentage of the max durability goes down, until it reaches 40% of the original, nominal maximum TT durability, then it does not degrade further. Of course that number can be tuned.

In order to restore the lost maximum TT (up to and beyond the original max, with no upper limit), a repair kit must be used. These are only crafted, and they use a variety of resources to produce. Their full TT is applied to both current and maximum TT of the UL weapon.

The pros and cons I see with this system are like this, cons first:

CONS:

If they do not use kits, the maximum TT of the UL gear will be reduced, which might shorten some hunting runs or require portable repair units.

If they do use kits, they will pay some markup (though likely not as much as buying L gear, as long as the recipe is simple).

PROS:

Provides a way to increase maximum TT of UL gear (which as far as I know was never possible before)

Provides another method of repairing in the field

Provides some much-needed economic stimulus for the crafting side of the game, including MU on loot


I wouldn't necessarily say this is perfectly balanced (how could anything ever be), but I think it does at least provide a give-and-take approach rather than just picking a winner and loser.

I actually really like this idea! An item that adds to the total TT like a TT extender! I would like this to apply to UL amps as well. That sinkadus amp breaks so fast tt is too low! I would definitely be interested to buy this tt extender item! Best thing about this is that people are not forced to buy this item. They will just be inconvenienced into going to the repair terminal more often.