Question: Using a rental service

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

EDIT: PLEASE answer the poll properly. I gave everyone 2 votes. If you would not use the rental service, the 2nd vote goes to the option that says to choose it if you voted no. There are currently 5 votes of no, yet only 1 vote on the proper 2nd vote.


As some of you may or may not know (as you will see in my signature) I run a rental service for various gears mainly rings and weapons catered towards mayhem. I am not here to advertise it but collect some information so I can better tailor it.
I would like to know how many people would use such a service, those who would flat out never use such a service, and how many might use it for specific instances for mayhem or if they just feel like being uber for a week using the best gear for hunting when mayhem is not in session. I would also appreciate any constructive feedback.

Every trade with customers and people I rent gear for is collateralized, there is nothing I can do to stop someone from stealing an item, but I do require collateral above the market value of the item to give people an incentive to not take it, and in the worst case scenario the owner would receive more than the value of the item if it was stolen. Not to mention the thief would have support cases brought down on them for breaking the terms of the contract and committing a trust scam.

I would also like opinions on whether prices are fair or too high etc. I won't link to the thread in this post, you are welcome to use my sig for that. I will also add answers in the poll concerning prices, please only select those if you have actually looked at my prices and explain why you answered whichever way you did.

Again I am not here to solicit people to use the service, but to look it over and pretend you were a customer or potential customer and provide feedback accordingly.

I also have ideas about an investment fund around the service where people can buy shares in it, and then receive discounts on rentals as well as dividends from the income each month. This would also allow people to use their shares as collateral for renting items in the service. So if you had 20k invested and you wanted to rent a 30k item you would only need to come up with the 10k difference at the time of the rental, and you would get dividends off what you just spent. Similar in concept to getting global rewards for hunting on an LA but instead of cycling ped and getting kickbacks its renting items and getting kickbacks. I actually have a fully fleshed out google doc explaining it but that would have to be a separate poll and post on that but as far as this post is concerned if you could comment on whether that sounds like something you would use or not just based on the basic idea I would appreciate it.

 

[mastermesh]

Not to mention the thief would have support cases brought down on them for breaking the terms of the contract and committing a trust scam.

Technically, a 'rental service' is breaking the terms of eula and tos as 'all trades are final' in Mindark's longstanding opinion... so there is no thief as you define it becuase that sort of definition is outside of the parameters of how Mindark views things.... and Mindark won't back you up via support tickets etc., at least based on their bank announcement way back then...

Clarification about Entropia banking operations

Clarification about Entropia banking operations 04 June 2007 Since we released news about the virtual banking licenses, several questions regarding loan services and banking affairs within Entropia Universe have been raised. The main concern has been the lending of items for interest. We feel...

www.planetcalypsoforum.com

loan services offered outside this official bank system cannot be guaranteed by MindArk. If an item is exchanged between avatars, this transaction will be logged as a regular TRADE. And as all trades are final, MindArk will not investigate claims if a loan giving avatar refuses to return items or money.Many people do not fully understand the true value of their virtual items until they are lost. They will then contact MindArk PE AB for assistance and will realize that we cannot help them; this can cause a lot of unnecessary grief and frustration.

We do not wish to discourage entrepreneurship within Entropia Universe, but based on experiences from community feedback and support case history, unfortunately not all entrepreneurs offering loaning services are trustworthy members of the Entropia Universe and therefore we need to be strict in our policies in order to protect the community from scams and cheating.

Therefore, any loan services offered outside the approved bank system will be considered by MindArk as scam attempts and the avatar offering such services risk a permanent lockdown of his/her account.

The investment fund thing would also apply here. The avatars participating in that are 'loaning you' peds so to speak. If you didn't give them something in return in the trade window when they did that that's a 'trade'.

Regarding that, what happens if you get paraliyzed in a car wreck tomorrow and go in to a comma for longer time than Mindark allows for avatars to be out of commission... When you come back will you personally pay back everyone with new deposits that were involved in the fund, and are there dually signed and notarized contracts in real world to back you up on that?

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

Technically, a 'rental service' is breaking the terms of eula and tos as 'all trades are final' in Mindark's longstanding opinion... so there is no thief as you define it becuase that sort of definition is outside of the parameters of how Mindark views things.... and Mindark won't back you up, at least based on their bank announcement way back then...

Clarification about Entropia banking operations

Clarification about Entropia banking operations 04 June 2007 Since we released news about the virtual banking licenses, several questions regarding loan services and banking affairs within Entropia Universe have been raised. The main concern has been the lending of items for interest. We feel...

www.planetcalypsoforum.com

I had an incident in late 2017 where someone stole an item I loaned. Mindark did back me up and provided me the definition of what a trust scam is and how to protect yourself. As you said all trades are final. Mindark wont return the item to you but if you enter into a clear contract in game chat that is based on trust, and they break that, mindark does consider the player a trust scammer. It still does not guarantee you the return of your items, which is why everything is collateralized.

I will copy my support case and post it here soon as i am able to.
Edit: Response from support

2017-10-27 13:29 Entropia Universe Support:

Hi Xan,

Thank you for your support case.

We will look into the occurrence and the avatar in question.

As you have a clear agreement that they've borrowed the item she'll have to return it or the value for you to purchase a new one.

Just to clarify, all trades are final and you should always trade for collateral, if it hasn't been clearly stated that it is a loan then there is nothing we can do to return the items, nor in this case is this something we will do however if you've agreed on a loan as you have here then they are obligated to complete the trade which is the agreement if not they've committed a trust scam and will be locked unless they have the intention to resolve it with you.

Kind regards,
Ulf | Entropia Universe Support

Edit: Also, I am not providing a LOAN service, as you can only do that if you own a bank. Banks don't let you borrow items, only ped. I am working within the rules as far as I am aware and mind ark is aware of what I do and actually helped me determine how to make it as safe as possible for both myself and the renter, and the people I rent on behalf of.



And as far as this goes

Regarding that, what happens if you get paraliyzed in a car wreck tomorrow and go in to a comma for longer time than Mindark allows for avatars to be out of commission... When you come back will you personally pay back everyone with new deposits that were involved in the fund, and are there dually signed and notarized contracts in real world to back you up on that?

Yes I do have a system in place to prevent such an issue from occurring. I have it in my will should something happen to me to make sure my family members get what I have invested into Entropia as well as any players that I have borrowed ped from. Also, in my trades where I do take on ped without collateral, I subject myself to the same rules quoted above from the support case and while yes the trade is final it is still based on trust so if I fail to keep my end I can be reported and get locked unless I make good on my word. It would not be in my interest to screw anyone over as I have more to lose since most of my account value is in items with markup.

 

[Sulje]

Xanato I know you for a very long time, and I trust you.

I asked some other guy about renting a mining amplifier and some other stuff, with total markup of +100k ped, on which he asked me to give him 300k ped collateral, which is hillarious, why would I trust him that he won't go away with 200k ped difference?

Are you operating the same way, or taking 1:1 collateral?

Best of luck brother !

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

Xanato I know you for a very long time, and I trust you.

I asked some other guy about renting a mining amplifier and some other stuff, with total markup of +100k ped, on which he asked me to give him 300k ped collateral, which is hillarious, why would I trust him that he won't go away with 200k ped difference?

Are you operating the same way, or taking 1:1 collateral?

Best of luck brother !

First, thank you for your kind words and your trust.

To answer your question I will use your example. If I am renting an item or items, especially an item owned by someone else, the collateral is based on market value +10-20% on top of that. So using the 100k ped value you cited, I would ask for 110-120k ped in collateral. Because as stated by mindark all trades are final, so to ensure the safe return of my items or the items of another player I add the extra 10-20% so that if the player does not honor the agreement then they paid more than the item is worth to take it.. I can not guarantee that someone will not just take the items and run, nor can I guarantee I can get them back. I can guarantee I will return what I was given as collateral to use one of my items and do my best to ensure the return of the items other players own.

I have had people who are trying to buy rings ask to rent from me, with the purpose of just keeping the ring and not returning it. But when they find out that I require collateral slightly above market more often then not they back down. It does me no good to keep that extra 10-20%, because I want to be able to continue offering my services, so you do get it back. As I stated in my previous post it is not worth it for me to steal. For one, I don't steal, or scam. And two, if I got locked I would lose 99% of my money as it is tied to market value not TT value. My $2000-3000 rings are suddenly worth $1.

 

[xodus4000]

First, thank you for your kind words and your trust.

To answer your question I will use your example. If I am renting an item or items, especially an item owned by someone else, the collateral is based on market value +10-20% on top of that. So using the 100k ped value you cited, I would ask for 110-120k ped in collateral. Because as stated by mindark all trades are final, so to ensure the safe return of my items or the items of another player I add the extra 10-20% so that if the player does not honor the agreement then they paid more than the item is worth to take it.. I can not guarantee that someone will not just take the items and run, nor can I guarantee I can get them back. I can guarantee I will return what I was given as collateral to use one of my items and do my best to ensure the return of the items other players own.

Hi! OK, I hope I didn't miss it anywhere in the thread, so in case I didn't: it sounds reasonable, just like IRL, a collateral is usually 1:1 or 1.1-2: 1 - makes sense. But what happens if the market value of the item goes rapidly up or down? Then you'll either have to ask for more or reduce the collateral or it ends up in tears

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

Hi! OK, I hope I didn't miss it anywhere in the thread, so in case I didn't: it sounds reasonable, just like IRL, a collateral is usually 1:1 or 1.1-2: 1 - makes sense. But what happens if the market value of the item goes rapidly up or down? Then you'll either have to ask for more or reduce the collateral or it ends up in tears

Before each trade the current market value for items are checked. For example I had my xmas 19 ring on my thread up for 26k collateral and one just sold for 30k, so I do a double check before the trade. Most rentals are short term only a couple days maybe a week. I think the only time this would apply is if something was rented out for a longer duration like a month in between mayhems. I honestly don't have a solution. On my end I would always return what was given to me regardless of market fluctuations. I can not guarantee that the other player will but that is part of the rental contract we agree to via in game chat. I keep a chatlog so I can report it to mindark if they break the agreement. If the trade is reversed with the exact items we used for collateral, no one loses anything, status quo is maintained. If the player was worried their items were going down in value and wanted to sell etc, we could always end the rental so they can sell it before they lose more, and if their item goes up in value, they will still get it back. I can only control my actions not others. The main takeaway is nothing is set in stone, and I recognize that there is a risk for me every time I do a rental. But there is less of a risk for those using my service because I would rather lose a few ped than risk damaging my reputation.

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

Anyone else have comments. There are quite a lot of views but not many poll votes.

 

[eyeshark]

Anyone else have comments. There are quite a lot of views but not many poll votes.

I am a recently returning player. I can’t imagine renting anything. I have not yet at least. The idea of having to provide collateral, while completely reasonable, makes me shy away. I’d love to see a lending feature built into the game which would strip the need for collateral. I don’t see that happening any time soon. I wish you luck though and certainly don’t begrudge anyone’s desire to interact in the game how they like.

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

I am a recently returning player. I can’t imagine renting anything. I have not yet at least. The idea of having to provide collateral, while completely reasonable, makes me shy away. I’d love to see a lending feature built into the game which would strip the need for collateral. I don’t see that happening any time soon. I wish you luck though and certainly don’t begrudge anyone’s desire to interact in the game how they like.

That is kind of the reason I am building the rental service. Mindark is motivated by money. They won't spend time implementing that feature unless they can make money off it. They cut traders out of trading deeds with the new share system. Traders made more ped selling AUDs p2p than MindArk made from the sales happening via auction. I want to give them the incentive to do the same thing to me. I want to prove to them there is a market for renting and loaning items. If I create and build the market properly, they will want their slice of my pie. And then everyone will be able to safely loan their friend something without collateral and not worry about losing their item. I can run a rental service that doesn't require collateral so I can lower prices and have more customers. Collateral is the biggest roadblock in my service. I am not trying to get rich and fleece players for their money. I want to provide a quality service and having to require collateral makes it very limiting, and unfortunately I can not just trust people to return $5000 in rings if they have nothing to lose by taking them from me.

I understand your point of view. I understand the desire to own things vs renting them. But if I can get Mindark to get rid of the need for collateral, I think the game will be better for it. For people who do not play often it would be more cost effective to just pay for the weekend when they are able to play or the few hours at night etc, vs owning the item and having it sit in the inventory doing nothing while they are not playing.

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

I think one way they could make rentals work is if you can take your item, and then convert it into a token of some sort or a deed and a second deed attached to the token of the item you have. Then you trade the person the deed and the token item. When the time of the deed expires, the token disappears. Or the token itself has a timer and once the timer has expired the owner of the item can convert their deed back into the item. Or something along those lines.