What is the first thing...

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LuisArkadov

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Healthcare systems in a lot of countries do not collapse every year like they are (or are about to) at the moment.
You have to see that, no?
Yes, I do.

In particular Italy and possibly also Spain seem to be hit by the perfect storm.

Yet there are factors at play that don't apply everywhere. Like Italy having a very old population, Northern Italy being the most polluted spot in all of Europe, Italy having hotspots of antibiotic resistant superbugs all over their hospitals.

Apart from that Italy reported an unusually strong 'flu' wave late last year already. That went largely unnoticed but begs the question if something is circulating unmitigated for much longer than initially thought.

Measures taken, such as closures of kindergardens & schools, are likely to have contributed to the spread rather than contained it. Putting kids (mostly asymptomic but carriers) together with their parents and grandparents probably wasn't completely thought through.

Scared people overwhelming hospitals with flu like symptoms. Any other year many of them would sit things out at home and not put additional strain to front line workers. Having had increased anxiety levels leading up to falling sick probably took a toll on many peoples immune systems as well possibly causing stronger symptoms than otherwise.

Also more people with flu like sickness visiting hospitals is likely to have spread disease among other patience already weakend due to unrelated causes.

Workers running out of gear & getting exposed as a consequence. Also many of them are understandably scared & fatigued adding to their sickness rates.

Can you please stop one sec & look at what's happening? We're locked into our places for weeks now. Threatened with heavy fines & possible jail time for breaking curphew. These measures may go dormant after this blows over but can be reactivated at any time again.

Can we at least let the younger crowds back out to do work? Focus resources on the most at risk, i.e. the elderly & the ill? By all means curtail concerts & other mass events for a while.

This is every one running scared when seeing a middle eastern person with a beard on the bus on Sept 12 all over again! Please stop chasing outliers to feed your panic. Again, check the numbers of your official health departments and compare them to previous years!

Even the RKI (robert-koch-institut) which is advising the german government is coming under increasing fire for their reporting.

Main point of debate there: The increasing positive cases being a sign of increased tests rather increasing & accerlerating spread. Of course you get more positives now that you run 500k tests per week where few weeks back it was less than 10k test per week.

Please Evey, you always claim us noobs don't know how to capture & analyse data to improve our loot. Well you seem to be good at it. Go do some number crunching and pay attention to what & who is actually being tested versus who & what is not being tested!
 

SuperKanjo

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So it's due to cut backs from goverments, so start pointing at them.
We had beds enough, but due to goverment cut backs we have not enough atm.
You are right, it's our goverment (i'm from Holland) that have cut heavily in healthcare resulting in the shortage. But what effect will pointing at them have for the current situation?

We live in the now, things that happened in the past can't be changed. First we need to deal with the current situation, after we can evaluate things that went wrong.
 

LuisArkadov

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It does NOT kill only elderly and sick people, check again!



Exactly!

Everyone is seeing the hazmat suits and body bags but some are not able to actually interpret the facts correctly.
A Pandemic is making more victims than seasonal flue DESPITE social distancing, quarantine, isolation, hazmat suits body bags, etc., etc.
Imagine how many victims we`d have WITHOUT these measures!
That's exactly the point of contention here. The data don't support your assertation.

We should at least start insisting on number of tests being published vs hit rates.

We should also insist on antibody tests as part of the procedure. I.e. don't just test who currently has the virus but check who's already immune to it.

We should insist on tests including all other corona virus types & all other influenza types that usually cause the described symptoms.

We should insist on not just projections of new infection numbers & graphs but also on projections on asymptomatic cases. (which many experts assume to be 70-90% of all cases - i.e. undetected cases)


You still just going by the headlines not by the data.
 
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Jan Universe

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You are right, it's our goverment (i'm from Holland) that have cut heavily in healthcare resulting in the shortage. But what effect will pointing at them have for the current situation?

We live in the now, things that happened in the past can't be changed. First we need to deal with the current situation, after we can evaluate things that went wrong.
As Wizz also mentioned, stay calm, don't fear, just do normal, i don't avoid people in the store, I said it somewhere else also, getting it in your system in small dosis probably won't cause you to die, unless you are weak all ready, small dosis your system can coop with it and defeat it, bam your resistent to it, getting it in your system on large dosis, crouds and so on, your system will get an overflow of the virus, which will cause you to die more likely.
And for the goverments on this planet, I hope people get awake by who they are herded, all these silly sheeps that roam around is pathetic.

For the rest i'm back under my rock now, as I don't realy want to post on this forum.
Gl out there. :popcorn:
 

jetsina

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Ok, we've been relatively Corona-free in EU so far, but a thread about what you will do when it's over has highlighted major differences of opinion not about that, but about the situation itself.

I usually try and take a step back and see how my subconscious tries to sum things up. So far it is a quote from a very long time ago (but in my lifetime and I watched it live, not exactly short, but somehow right down my street. It is this:

"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care, or, indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all."

It does appear to me, more than just a smidgen (little bit), that it is considered by some to be irresponsible to try to be rational in this, while others consider it to be irresponsible to let 'other factors', whether it be fear or authority, govern without being questioned. It is very much a mindset thing!

You wouldn't get on a plane that had a 5% risk of crashing, say some, and simply stop there. I would go further; it depends on the situation. Normally I wouldn't do so, but if I was in the worst part of a conflict zone with a daily risk of dying of maybe 1% a day, and another flight probably not possible for at least a week or more... then I might indeed get on that plane. Am I wrong in wanting to inform myself about the RELATIVE risks, so I can make my own decisions? Would I be wrong to try and convince others to take the lower risk action as well, or is that interference?

Do more rational people have a group responsibility to put rationalle on the table? Yes, but is this by asking the right questions or confidently strutting around spouting what they think is rational (which it might be), but could still be wrong? Statistically, most people who believe they know enough about something are under the influence of the Dunning-Kruger effect. It really doesn't help to have both sides of an argument being wrong...

We are currently in a lockdown that will quickly financially break millions of people per country. Others will lose their own lives or relatives to this. We may end up with both being true.

When this is over, I hope we can have a time of recovery and compassion - and therapy, yes. Sometimes the people with the biggest regrets are the toughest nuts to crack. They will need help too - we all will. BE THERE for EACH OTHER please...
 

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I said it somewhere else also, getting it in your system in small dosis probably won't cause you to die, unless you are weak all ready, small dosis your system can coop with it and defeat it, bam your resistent to it
And this is the problem with how people like you think. I'm not affraid for myself, i will survive. But i may infect other people, like my 70yo mother, she might not survive.

I am calm, there is no panic, but this is the reason we have to be carefull and take this very seriously.
 

LuisArkadov

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When this is over, I hope we can have a time of recovery and compassion
Yes, this, very much so.

There are really heartwarming examples of this already happening.

To me that's one of the very few silverlinings.

I'm also battling anxiety attacks daily but try to combat it with researching facts on one hand & also creating silverlinings for myself.

For example near smoke free for 3 weeks now. Few small relapses but gone from 15 smokes to 1 or 2 per day, some days completely smoke free. No small feat after almost 30 years hooked.
 

Jan Universe

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And this is the problem with how people like you think. I'm not affraid for myself, i will survive. But i may infect other people, like my 70yo mother, she might not survive.

I am calm, there is no panic, but this is the reason we have to be carefull and take this very seriously.
I'm not saying that it should not be taken seriously. (Sure you should)
Just use common sense, and do whaterver you think you have to do.
Do you wanna be locked in your home, well I don't need a goverment to tell me to, I can do that myself.
And if you are affraid to infect others, how about they protect them selfs?
I'm not going out there to be infected either.
It's to much to sum it all up here.

Same as takeaway food here, they are making your food without protection, and people are still consuming the food from them?
Coughing over your food after being prepared.
And yes I have seen it, and told them that it is crap what they are doing, and no i'm not saying they all do this, but my experience so far is they don't protect.
All they did say was, yeah rules from RIVM, RIVM can get lost, I don't trust them.
To protect myself, no takeaway food for me, my food is prepared by myself.
But hey shaking a hand is deadly.
lol realy?

Next year we will have a mutated version, and this starts all over again?
And yes virus does mutate, maybe in 2 years, you get the idea.
And no, a vaccin isn't going to help you either then, because it's based on the previous version.
Hence why a flu shot is BS also.
And ofc I don't care what people believe or not, i just do whatever I believe.

No more commenting for me. (I hope)
:popcorn:
 
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Naomi

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I'm not affraid for myself, i will survive. But i may infect other people, like my 70yo mother, she might not survive.
Exactly, just as one would be carefull and not visit newborns or elderly when you have the flu or something else that is contageous...
We have been doing this for generations.

The measures that have been taken today... that is new.
Corona is not, corona variants are known to cause flu-like illness since the '60s. People have been dying from corona for decennia, as they have from other diseases such as pneumonia, flu, infections,...
 

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Try to react logical and rational towards this crisis.
Form an opinion based on facts & numbers.
Examine those numbers critically.
Don't act out of fear and speculation of what might be.


Don't fall into the emotions trap. Never act out of fear. Fear is the worst advisor. Be prepared, don't be scared!

Don't fall into the emotional guild blackmail trap.
(it may be my fault that someone elses dies)
It is not your fault that another person has a compromised immune system.

See things in perspective to its numbers, and form a fair opinion.

Smokers never have fallen into the guilt trap, and yet it is still allowed. The same with cars, meat, cheese, don't forget doctors who have done wrong prescriptions,... bad foods... fast food and soda is still legal, even tho it causes hundreds of thousands of deaths a year...

Top 11: Main Causes of death: (in order of casualties, from low to high)
1 - Heart disease
2 - Cancer
3 - Docters (wrong operations, wrong medications,...)
4 - Accidents
5 - Lung disease
6 - Brain problems
7 - Diabetes
8 - TBC
9 - Influenza and pneumonia
10 - Kidney
11 - Suicide


Every human being is responsible for his own actions, and for his own health.
It is good that you care about others, and that you are careful towards other people's health, still, it is not your responsability.

Throughout history people have been dying when their bodies stopped functioning, be it by age, polluted organs that shut down, or accidents.
Dying by age is a rare thing today. Many die from so-called age-related diseases. However, according to modern medical science, there are NO age-releated diseases. The diseases that we attribute to age today, are due to polluted organs that can no longer function optimally. This applies especially for auto-immune disorders, alzheimer, cancer, long-problems,...

most people recover easily from flu
most people recover easily from pneumonia (I once had it when I was a child, didn't even know back then).
most people recover easily from corona virusses

There always are exceptions that confirm the rule.
- Sometimes a football player drops down in the middle of a match. He was considered very healthy. However, today we know that due to very high activity his Q10 was fully depleted and he had a stroke.
- Sometimes people die of flue, pneumania of virusses, when their immune system is depleted. This can be because of bad health, bad food, polluted not fully functioning organs, mineral or vitamin depletion,...

Every death can be sad, and often is one too many.


and last but not least:

STRESS IS A HUGE KILLER

One can only try to comprehend how many deaths are caused by the far-going huge stress inflicting measures that have been taken worldwide today.
 

Taldur

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Main point of debate there: The increasing positive cases being a sign of increased tests rather increasing & accerlerating spread. Of course you get more positives now that you run 500k tests per week where few weeks back it was less than 10k test per week.
Table 4: Laboratory tests performed for SARS-CoV-2 in Germany, calendar weeks 11 and 12 (26/03/2020)
Calender week
2020
Number test positive Number labs
11 127.457 7.582 (5,9%) 114
12 348.619 23.820 (6,8%) 176
https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ...chte/2020-03-26-en.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

Number of tests increased, positive test rate increased as well, CFR is still rising until now (0.7% atm with a lot of testing and coverage of asymptomatic/mild cases).
 

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As Wizz also mentioned, stay calm, don't fear, just do normal, i don't avoid people in the store, I said it somewhere else also, getting it in your system in small dosis probably won't cause you to die,
No but you do have a chance of developing PERMANENT lung damage ( Corona Obstructive Lung Disease (COLD) . This isn't the flu. It shouln't be compared to the flu. Treat this disease for what it is, a global pandemic.

here it is in Dutch for you and Wizz to read:

https://www.nu.nl/coronavirus/60401...-deel-van-patienten-blijvende-longschade.html
 
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Jan Universe

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PERMANENT longue damage.
This also has to do with being on ventilation for 3 weeks.
Being on those things was never a good thing.
How ever, done with this BS.
Don't get infected, if you are affraid, protect yourself, don't blame another person for being stupid and not being protecting your self.
 
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Hego Damask

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When we are all allowed to go out again what is the fist thing you want to do?

Ironic.
All i want is staying at home with lot of food, no social contact, not even leave the house for a month, i imagine heaven like this.
Peoples get it and complaining about it, while i still have to go to work :)
Not fair, i want it too.

Maybe i will go for it as holiday, when its ends :)
 

711

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When we are all allowed to go out again what is the fist thing you want to do?

Me: Kick the kids out of the house.
This thread has veered wildly off topic, and has turned into a full-blown debate of real-world issues.

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