What is the Merit of Using a Finisher Weapon?

[John uncguy43 Williams]

Hi all - forgive the re-ask if this is a beginner’s question…but what is the value in using a finisher weapon?

I know that you’re supposed to avoid overkill when when possible, but does anyone have data illustrating the value in using a finisher as opposed to just over killing?

 

[Msturlese]

i understood that loot 2.0 is PED IN ---> randomizer ----> ped out.
so should have no difference

 

[kingofaces]

It was really more of a loot 1.0 thing where damage/pec rules the roost since overkill meant higher losses.

Now DPP only really affects loot composition, so it’s not as big of a factor anymore if you have overkill, but if you consistently overkill, there could be a noticeable difference over time in loot.

It’s probably nitpicky, but it does help you get more loot events per ped spent if you have a finisher. Depends really on how you’re trying to hunt and what your main weapon is doing.

 

[Katie Chalmers]

You would have to have an extremely over powered main weapon for a finisher to really provide any tangible benefit to a hunt.
Switching to finishers and back just slow down your play, and mobs often regen on your finishing blow, meaning you spend a few extra shots and not accomplishing what you meant to.
If you are using a relatively normal weapon and hunting a mob fairly suited to its damage output then you have nothing really to worry about.

 

[Sulje]

i understood that loot 2.0 is PED IN ---> randomizer ----> ped out.
so should have no9 difference

Not really, overkill is not fully compensated, so over time you will lose quite a bit on tt.

 

[Deemer]

Do your own weapon test for how much it will cost you to kill 100 mobs with 100 HP.

For example with...
1. Armatrix 25 pistol
2. Herman ARK-0

3. Buy 100 TT Pistols and keep one that is over 3000 Tier Rate. By the time you do the 100 killer test, I guess it will increase to Tier 10.

* If the pistol is not Tier 10, make it somewhere before the test on tier 10.Then buy Eco and Accu enhancers *2 for each slot up to 10.

3.1 Make the test with Accu enhancers
3.2 Do the Eco enhancers test

* Remember, the test is based on how much the final cost of 100 kills will cost you... not the TT return or armor or fap decay.
* You always can resell those enhancers after the test if you don't want to keep them.

Fouls are 100 HP mobs on Calypso, and pretty low HP regen.



Notes from MA:

• Loot value calculations and the composition of the items in loot will be affected by properly matching avatar skills and gear to the creature being hunted, rewarding efficient kills with more interesting loot. For optimal loot, it will be important to avoid inefficiencies such as low damage output compared to creature health, excessive time and cost to kill, overkill damage, unmaxed weapons and other factors. This system is intended to reward game knowledge, which has traditionally been an important and unique aspect of success in Entropia Universe, and to provide opportunities for participants to improve their loot returns via experimentation, optimization and specialization.

• In general, the lower the cost to kill a creature, the higher the proportion of loot composition will be Optimal Loot. There is no inherent “kill timer” for each creature; Optimal Loot is calculated based on costs, not on time.

If in doubt after doing the test yourself, check this topic again.

On different days, you will have different values of the loot, which does not depend on anything above. Thinking about finisher, in my opinion, means that you basically use too big weapon against the mob you hunt. The above would guide you on how to better choose your weapon for a mob that you will hunt.

The selection of a mob is very important. For example, the Fouls do not have good loot and regardless of your attempts, after a long hunt for this mob, you will always have a negative result, even after MU. But it's still the best mob I've remind of for this test.

 

[Deemer]

@Sulje If your hunt is focused on MU loot instead of TT Globalz, this above will not be funny to you... try it.

 

[M Rufen Power]

Do your own weapon test for how much it will cost you to kill 100 mobs with 100 HP.

For example with...
1. Armatrix 25 pistol
2. Herman ARK-0

3. Buy 100 TT Pistols and keep one that is over 3000 Tier Rate. By the time you do the 100 killer test, I guess it will increase to Tier 10.

* If the pistol is not Tier 10, make it somewhere before the test on tier 10.Then buy Eco and Accu enhancers *2 for each slot up to 10.

3.1 Make the test with Accu enhancers
3.2 Do the Eco enhancers test

* Remember, the test is based on how much the final cost of 100 kills will cost you... not the TT return or armor or fap decay.
* You always can resell those enhancers after the test if you don't want to keep them.

Fouls are 100 HP mobs on Calypso, and pretty low HP regen.



Notes from MA:

• Loot value calculations and the composition of the items in loot will be affected by properly matching avatar skills and gear to the creature being hunted, rewarding efficient kills with more interesting loot. For optimal loot, it will be important to avoid inefficiencies such as low damage output compared to creature health, excessive time and cost to kill, overkill damage, unmaxed weapons and other factors. This system is intended to reward game knowledge, which has traditionally been an important and unique aspect of success in Entropia Universe, and to provide opportunities for participants to improve their loot returns via experimentation, optimization and specialization.

• In general, the lower the cost to kill a creature, the higher the proportion of loot composition will be Optimal Loot. There is no inherent “kill timer” for each creature; Optimal Loot is calculated based on costs, not on time.

If in doubt after doing the test yourself, check this topic again.

On different days, you will have different values of the loot, which does not depend on anything above. Thinking about finisher, in my opinion, means that you basically use too big weapon against the mob you hunt. The above would guide you on how to better choose your weapon for a mob that you will hunt.

The selection of a mob is very important. For example, the Fouls do not have good loot and regardless of your attempts, after a long hunt for this mob, you will always have a negative result, even after MU. But it's still the best mob I've remind of for this test.

Very insightful post. I have done similar tests with eco enhs @ tier 10, which produced very interesting results to say the least.

 

[RickEngland]

Basically getting a skill drop on another profession that triggered a loot event. All very 1990's loot algorithm. Came in handy if you built up a lot of general skill that pushed up all other hunting professions, and just needed a trigger to hof that bugger., by using another profession weapon.

Got me out the poo loads of times that.

Pretty sure that's another redundant hangover of the game now though. I did wonder for a long while (back in the day) if "exact hp to kill ratio" triggered a hof, but so hard to measure it as damage is variable.

Plus damage shot is recorded even if over remaining hp of the mob. So it was hard to buy into that idea of lost ped for overkill . Because it would he huge variance on eack mob if using big guns with amps and enhancers.

Just because something worked yesterday, doesn't mean it works tomorrow.

Rick.

 

[DavinFelth]

I'm far from an eco expert, but I wanted to share some things I notice to consider.
I often switch to a smaller weapon for a finisher, but sometimes the delay and/or lag during that time frame caused enough time for the mob to regen just enough that the finisher now wasn't enough to kill it. Then... I miss 2x LOL. Meanwhile the mob hits me one more time. Making the act of killing it as soon as possible more effective than using a weapon that uses less ammo. If not more effective... than close enough to the same thing and it has little advantage.

However you don't want to pump 1ped of ammo into a puny, but I guess over kill is different than not using a finisher.

Anyhow - I do it when I can and the mob has so little health that it seems obvious. If it's too close to call, then who cares- blast it!

 

[Gopher]

Imo only reason you would want a finisher in loot 2.0 is if it is a different weapon class than the one you mainly use. For example, if you are using a laser pistol/rifle, you could use a blp rifle/pistol or a melee and get the skill gain bonus from killing a mob. This is good since you can level two things at once. If you think you need a finisher, you should rethink the mob you are hunting or use a lower dps weapon as you are dealing too much dmg if you overkill that much you need a finisher. Overkill above a small size leads to worse loot composition as you are spending more than you should to kill the mob.

 

[M Rufen Power]

Imo only reason you would want a finisher in loot 2.0 is if it is a different weapon class than the one you mainly use. For example, if you are using a laser pistol/rifle, you could use a blp rifle/pistol or a melee and get the skill gain bonus from killing a mob. This is good since you can level two things at once. If you think you need a finisher, you should rethink the mob you are hunting or use a lower dps weapon as you are dealing too much dmg if you overkill that much you need a finisher. Overkill above a small size leads to worse loot composition as you are spending more than you should to kill the mob.

I can agree; wasting less ped per kill increases the loot composition; I've seen this happen many times now for loot that is not wave-based does help by a considerable margin which is worth considering for any hunter who wishes to turn profitable.

 

[wizz]

i understood that loot 2.0 is PED IN ---> randomizer ----> ped out.
so should have no difference

There is for sure a difference.

Let's go with the principle that you get 95% TT return.

Overkilling means you will only get 95% of the overkill back.
So if you overkill with with a 100 dmg weapon (25 pec) while the mob only has 5 HP left, you will only get back 23,5 pec meaning you wasted an additional 1,25 pec.

So, in short, 5% of your overkill costs are wasted (based on 95% TT return).
And since everybody get's all horny about saving 0,0001 pec per shot, why waste it on overkill??


And As Mark Rufen stated above, overkilling will destroy you loot composition.

try (over)killing Punies with a 200 dmg weapon. You will only get shrapnel as loot where as if you keep the costs down as low as possible, you will see materials in your loot besides shrapnel.

So, unless you don't mind wasting 5% on your overkill shot and you don't ind looting shrapnel, just go ahead and overkill as much as you like.
Otherwise, get a small finisher.

 

[M Rufen Power]

Overkilling means you will only get 95% of the overkill back.
So if you overkill with with a 100 dmg weapon (25 pec) while the mob only has 5 HP left, you will only get back 23,5 pec meaning you wasted an additional 1,25 pec.

So, in short, 5% of your overkill costs are wasted (based on 95% TT return).
And since everybody get's all horny about saving 0,0001 pec per shot, why waste it on overkill??


And As Mark Rufen stated above, overkilling will destroy you loot composition.

Try (over)killing Punies with a 200 dmg weapon. You will only get shrapnel as loot where as if you keep the costs down as low as possible, you will see materials in your loot besides shrapnel.

So, unless you don't mind wasting 5% on your overkill shot and you don't ind looting shrapnel, just go ahead and overkill as much as you like.
Otherwise, get a small finisher.

Yeah, overkill will destroy your loot composition, especially if using attachments for efficiency sake.
I know for 100% certainty overkill has a minimum -2% effect on returns, but 5%, that's new to me, lol.
I'd love to see your data points on that one @wizz and you'll lose around 25% on the defence costs.

 

[wizz]

Yeah, overkill will destroy your loot composition, especially if using attachments for efficiency sake.
I know for 100% certainty overkill has a minimum -2% effect on returns, but 5%, that's new to me, lol.
I'd love to see your data points on that one @wizz and you'll lose around 25% on the defence costs.

The mentioned 5% is based on a 95% TT return average.
The 5% was just an example.
Meaning you lose 5% per overkill shot.

If you only get 90% TT average back you will lose 10% of your overkill shot which is not returned in loot.

 

[Gopher]

The mentioned 5% is based on a 95% TT return average.
The 5% was just an example.
Meaning you lose 5% per overkill shot.

If you only get 90% TT average back you will lose 10% of your overkill shot which is not returned in loot.

Overkill is returned in loot

 

[Rocket192]

Overkill is returned in loot

as shrapnel.


if you can avoid overkill you will see better loot composition.

 

[wizz]

Overkill is returned in loot

exactly, but not for 100%. Didn't you read the motivation?
But if you think you get 100% of your overkill back in loot, I don't mind. Overkill all that you want.

 

[Gopher]

as shrapnel.


if you can avoid overkill you will see better loot composition.

Of course, but 5% loss for overkill is wrong

 

[Hego Damask]

as shrapnel.

We still says shrapnel is bad loot, but atm shrapnel have more mu than eye, muscle, adrenal, thyroid or pancreas oil.

Also there are different overkills.
Killing a 10-30hp mob with high dmg gun that do 50-100dmg, yes, overkill, dont do that.
Killing an 1000-1500hp mob last 10-50 hp with 50-100dmg gun i wont call overkill.

 

[wizz]

Of course, but 5% loss for overkill is wrong

care to explain?
Or are you just trying to give false information?

 

[Gopher]

care to explain?
Or are you just trying to give false information?

Care to explain where 5% came from? Just because you get 95% tt return doesnt mean its because of overkill.

 

[Deemer]

Care to explain where 5% came from? Just because you get 95% tt return doesnt mean its because of overkill.

I don't understand what your problem is. She gives a simple example based on the fact that we have an average of 95% TT return. Given that weapons for hight Efficiency/DPP have a much lower value compared to Overkill of 20 pecs = 5% = 1 pek for each mob... and the prices of these weapons are amazing, ie. you are ready to spend a lot to decrease this value, but at the same time you don't care that you spend more (it's not logical). So it makes sense to use a finisher. No one but MA knows exactly how the pool is distributed to claim an accurate calculation... I'm sure you have no idea too.

Also it's not 5% but about 30%... of each mob, ie. not a pek but 6 pek from 20 pek per shot gun. Because 99% of the kills return about half of what is spent, but the system return is 73%, others go to a pool from which it is not known when and what you will receive... Our the end result is 95%, i.e. after the all multiplications... so a finisher is the logical solution if the main weapon is too big for the mob you are hunting.

There is a big difference in what you use this weapon for. If you are competing with other players, for example an event. In this case, higher costs increase the chances of larger multiplications. It is no coincidence that the events are short-lived and most of them give prizes for the Biggest Multiplications. Only in these cases, excessive costs could be beneficial. But in normal hunting the opposite is true.

 

[Gopher]

I don't understand what your problem is. She gives a simple example based on the fact that we have an average of 95% TT return. Given that weapons for hight Efficiency/DPP have a much lower value compared to Overkill of 20 pecs = 5% = 1 pek for each mob... and the prices of these weapons are amazing, ie. you are ready to spend a lot to decrease this value, but at the same time you don't care that you spend more (it's not logical). So it makes sense to use a finisher. No one but MA knows exactly how the pool is distributed to claim an accurate calculation... I'm sure you have no idea too.

Also it's not 5% but about 30%... of each mob, ie. not a pek but 6 pek from 20 pek per shot gun. Because 99% of the kills return about half of what is spent, but the system return is 73%, others go to a pool from which it is not known when and what you will receive... Our the end result is 95%, i.e. after the all multiplications... so a finisher is the logical solution if the main weapon is too big for the mob you are hunting.

There is a big difference in what you use this weapon for. If you are competing with other players, for example an event. In this case, higher costs increase the chances of larger multiplications. It is no coincidence that the events are short-lived and most of them give prizes for the Biggest Multiplications. Only in these cases, excessive costs could be beneficial. But in normal hunting the opposite is true.

You don't need a finisher in loot 2.0, you are not choosing the correct mob for your weapon if you need a finisher. Higher costs don't increase the chances of larger multipliers, idk where you heard this from but its simply not true.

 

[Deemer]

You don't need a finisher in loot 2.0, you are not choosing the correct mob for your weapon if you need a finisher.

This is what I say in my comments so far, it is better to use a suitable weapon than a larger one and a finisher.

Higher costs don't increase the chances of larger multipliers, idk where you heard this from but its simply not true.

The quick answer is the gambling part of the game.
My personal experience also shows it.
It is much easier to take the pool with a bigger bet... "if there is a pool". The chances are in favor of the one with the most losses, and this is easier to achieve with a bigger weapon. If you have another statement, explain it.

 

[Gopher]

This is what I say in my comments so far, it is better to use a suitable weapon than a larger one and a finisher.




The quick answer is the gambling part of the game.
My personal experience also shows it.
It is much easier to take the pool with a bigger bet... "if there is a pool". The chances are in favor of the one with the most losses, and this is easier to achieve with a bigger weapon. If you have another statement, explain it.

Oh, I misunderstood your statement then, I thought that you said higher costs increase the chance of having a bigger multi than lower costs

 

[Tilli]

More kills per ped, more rare loot events per ped, rare loot events are what gives markup, markup you need for breaking even

 

[wizz]

Care to explain where 5% came from? Just because you get 95% tt return doesnt mean its because of overkill.

Care to read the posts I have already written first before you ask questions like this?


"Let's go with the principle that you get 95% TT return.

Overkilling means you will only get 95% of the overkill back.
So if you overkill with with a 100 dmg weapon (25 pec) while the mob only has 5 HP left, you will only get back 23,5 pec meaning you wasted an additional 1,25 pec.

So, in short, 5% of your overkill costs are wasted (based on 95% TT return)."

 

[Deemer]

More kills per ped, more rare loot events per ped, rare loot events are what gives markup, markup you need for breaking even

I do not agree with this statement.
In fact, MA doubled the respawn time of the loot to normalize markups in the game (this is my conclusion), but the effect of this action has become 24-hour bots that shoot large quantities to make a profit, which unbalances the market even more.

Balance does not mean more, but balancing. If the system give you less, you can't balance it with more, but with less. Because what the game gives is not up to you but to the game.

If you want double, go to the bigger mobs, but in this case you will need double bankroll.

 

[SuperFly]

OD - overkill damage
DPP - actual damage per PEC
HP - a mob HP
RC - tt return coefficient, depends on the looter and eff ( 0,90 - 0,99 )
LOSS - tt loss
COST - actual cost to kill

Hypothesis 1: LOSS = COST * ( 1 - RC )
Hypothesis 2: COST = ( OD + HP ) / DPP

CASE 1: RC = 0,95 ; OD = 0,05 * HP ( low looter and 65% eff gear + 5% overkill damage )
LOSS = 1,05 * HP * 0,05 / DPP = 0,0525 * HP / DPP ( 0,25% extra loss -> TT return 94,75% )

CASE 2: RC = 0,90 ; OD = 0,5 * HP ( a n00b with 'deluxe' gun + 50% overkill damage )
LOSS = 1,5 * HP * 0,1 / DPP = 0,15 * HP / DPP ( 5% extra loss -> TT return 85% )

CASE 3: RC = 0,99 ; OD = 0,05 * HP ( high looter and high eff gear + 5% overkill damage )
LOSS = 1,05 * HP * 0,01 / DPP = 0,0105 * HP / DPP ( 0,05% extra loss -> TT return 98,95% )

CASE 4: RC = 0,99 ; OD = 0,5 * HP ( high looter and high eff gear + 50% overkill damage )
LOSS = 1,5 * HP * 0,01 / DPP = 0,015 * HP / DPP ( 0,5% extra loss -> TT return 98,5% )

Conclusion: use a finisher n00b till you get high looter and eff