Yog buff exploit: time for MA to take a stand

niteflite

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I am re-posting my thoughts in a new thread because the original has descended in a series of personal accusations, and that detracts from discussing what is really at stake here.

It will help the general debate if we started to use the right terms. This is a RCE and consequently we are not dealing with simple "cheaters" here. This is a long-term fraud, and these players are fraudsters.

These thieves have being "stealing" peds and high-end weapons, which they have been using to steal even more peds and high-end weapons, both on a daily basis and during events. This is a criminal activity, which in any other situation would be investigated and prosecuted.

Just to clarify, in many countries anybody who becomes aware of critical software/hardware exploits and does not report them, let alone use them to their own benefit, are criminal offenders and will be prosecuted by the authorities, even on foreign soil.

I also take objection to the usual line that MA should/would take a light touch to these criminals, because they are big depositors. This is a perverse logic, which is swapping cause and effect. These thieves are big depositors because they are somehow "certain" to get 101%+ returns back through cheats, tricks, strategies, mixing with the "right" people, "those in the know", etc. It stands to reason that anybody would be depositing as much money as possible if they had such a guarantee. And just to be clear, there are plenty of big depositors who stay on the right side of the law and are major victims of these thieves.

A game this complicated is bound to experience bugs of this type over and over again, the only economic way to deal with it is to deter illegal activity, by setting clear guidelines on consequences and take retrospective actions, when applicable.

It is time for MA to take serious action for the integrity of the game, or else any genuine player will be left feeling as if their money is being stolen every day by gangs of crooks.

Please MA do not let this happen.
 

theProphet

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Please MA do not let this happen.
to be fair, it's all mindark's fault anyways. they seem to have very little clue about their own game, and even less about how to deliver quality content.

EST, rings, buff stacking & relog bugs, just to name a few "mishaps", it's all their well known swedish tradition of SNAFU, sorry! :(
 

ZippO

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I hope they ban or do something about any and all that were using this (including banning from being able to compete in mayhem). Most especially in competitions where pills and any advantage can be expensive to those that aren't using this exploit. This is a very clear and known circumvention of the rules of the game that gives clear advantage to those that use and abuse it.
 

Rocket192

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in sum,


no one on PCF seems to think anything aside from a ban is appropriate...

i'd be fine with cutting their total skills by 1/2 and banning for 3 months or something
 

Evey

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i'd be fine with cutting their total skills by 1/2
That would be a reward, for them, with the current price of ESI, since many of them chip out hardcore t stay in lower cats to dominate as many as possible :)
Let them buy the ESI I say


Preventing mayhem cheaters to enter mayhem competition would be the most appropriate.
Just like those who trapped big marcimex got their crystals removed and can never go back to Cyclops.
 

San

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I'm rather interested in learning why shtf only now if this has been known for a long time and used to play unfair in several competitions. I know I'm pretty good at missing out on interesting bits in the chitchat, but that nobody else would have brought it up before seems not very plausible to me. Even if a small, tight-lipped circle got behind this first, the hatchling with the same, only smaller effect is not at all rare and a lot more people could have found out. Even 10% more reload is not at all shabby. Someone would have said something, somewhere.
 

niteflite

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I'm rather interested in learning why shtf only now if this has been known for a long time and used to play unfair in several competitions. I know I'm pretty good at missing out on interesting bits in the chitchat, but that nobody else would have brought it up before seems not very plausible to me. Even if a small, tight-lipped circle got behind this first, the hatchling with the same, only smaller effect is not at all rare and a lot more people could have found out. Even 10% more reload is not at all shabby. Someone would have said something, somewhere.
One way to answer your question would be to check the Buying section on this forum. You might find some high caliber hunters, with minimal mining activities, looking for yogs...
 

mastermesh

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Mindark changes the rules regularly... they should check things out before releasing but we all know they only do half of the work really necessary on that front... everyone screams 'exploit,' but really they should be chastising Mindark for a not-well-thought out plan of action in how the game was programmed... almost every bit 'exploit' callout is due to something Mindark programmed to be that way, whether on purpose or not... Blatent cheaters do sometimes use other outside of the game software too and should be taken down for that, but a lot of times people just gain or lose peds due to horrible Quality Assurance Checking at Mindark... perhaps, you'd think a community manager, or the support team could do something to help on that front... but most of the time, as we all know "this issue will be reported to the department in charge of that area..." i.e. forgotten for the rest of time and buried under a pile of other junk that no one will look at or read for 3-5 years, when all of a sudden Mindark will throw a fix in and everyone will be like, why'd they do that?
 

Thorns Rose

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I was thinking that instead of a 'Community Advisor" MA position, it would be more advantageous to create a "Quality Control" MA position?

We clearly need a MA official maybe to look into all the exploits and botting..lag...problematic issues inside the game and just have someone 'Pop" in and maybe be invisible ( I know they can ) and witness for themselves what is actually going on in the game instead of having the community and after the fact speak about it.

Knowing a MA "Quality Control Advisor" in game can keep people on their toes and can save a lot of Support cases really. I think if one is in game and can either fix issues that are fixable on the spot or bounce bad players immediately.


I was going to make this as a suggestion in the category but this will do.
 
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Legends

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There has been a position created for QA, originally I believe Darkaruki was assigned to it and if I'm not mistaken, this position was created AFTER the Yog pets were released.

I have a problem with the angst that is directed at players who 'exploited' this. This 'bug' was reported to MA via support cases a long time ago and they never fixed it. Maybe MA is overwhelmed with support cases and this didn't get the attention it deserved and somehow fell through the cracks. You can't blame players for looking for and seeking out ways to get an edge over others in a competition style event, that is a perfectly normal thing for a participant to do.

MA most likely will not be able to discipline most of the offenders because if they look back, they will only find that this is their own fault for not giving this the attention that it should have received way way back when it was first reported to them.

There's still some things that are wrong with Mayhem and that's unfortunate, but it's way better than it used to be imo which is why I've started participating in them.

Thanks MA for finally fixing this exploit.
 

Geo

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There has been a position created for QA, originally I believe Darkaruki was assigned to it and if I'm not mistaken, this position was created AFTER the Yog pets were released.

I have a problem with the angst that is directed at players who 'exploited' this. This 'bug' was reported to MA via support cases a long time ago and they never fixed it. Maybe MA is overwhelmed with support cases and this didn't get the attention it deserved and somehow fell through the cracks. You can't blame players for looking for and seeking out ways to get an edge over others in a competition style event, that is a perfectly normal thing for a participant to do.

MA most likely will not be able to discipline most of the offenders because if they look back, they will only find that this is their own fault for not giving this the attention that it should have received way way back when it was first reported to them.

There's still some things that are wrong with Mayhem and that's unfortunate, but it's way better than it used to be imo which is why I've started participating in them.

Thanks MA for finally fixing this exploit.
Sorry but no. They are still guilty of knowingly using this exploit for years and not bringing it forward publicly.
Claiming they all were using it in Mayhem this year only to prove a point, so MA would fix it, is bullshit.
There is no way they are that naïve to think this was the best way to shed light on this, and not expect backlash from the community.
If it was their intention to make it known and to get it fixed, they should of posted it publicly years ago.

If you steal from your company because of some mistake they made or a rounding error, you are still stealing and will be prosecuted, even if it was reported but never fixed.
 
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forgo

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I'd like to point out that the Eula requires adults to play....why we treat them like kids when they get caught doing a very adult thing, that in real life would be considered fraud is beyond me.

Ma should consider the losses other players had to endure to counter those gains. How much money did they lose and decide to stop? What seems to be just a local problem of a small advantage for a few, cut off the flow of income from the many in more ways than one. It can be seen in auction volumes, various chat complaints, and participation rates.

I've suspected something major in the system wrong when multiple soc mates come back saying they got 60% returns...which should never happen really, especially in numbers, unless there is something taking advantage that is providing a reason for it. Similar to the (L)/UL amp issues of the past, for some the returns were artificially high, for more, the returns had to make up for it.

The cheaters, should know better and should be penalized for it.

This is not club penguin or wizards 101.
 

duncis

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So all those events i should have been ranked higher? Assuming some of the winners had used this bug.
It makes sense now that some people get "incredibly lucky".

Wiping scores of current event just doesnt cut it, how many people had suffered on previous events, because of at least 7 people that were already doing it this event and more that would have joined in on it on weekend when they get to play, but didnt get caught yet?

Yog has been in game for long time, and i have seen it going for big money, obviously of its rarity and unintended buff.

Lets look back at DannyO and Cobra Boner, they abused an item that weas never to leave PP employees hands, and we saw a decent punishment.
They used these items to skill and sell skills, so it was of a financial gain.
Now these guys abusing the unintended bug got only their current score wiped. If they used this bug on previous events they have done so for financial gain. and this time taking money from other players directly. Mayhem prizes are valuable and even loot is valuable, all the mark up gained for 25% more dps.

Many have called it, and i will join in, I think sanctions in way of temp or perma ban is appropriate in this case no less than it was in Danny0 and Cobra Boner's case. I know it takes human resources to go back and check all the logs and then fix all the mayhem results, but that also has to be done, and players who had ranked higher than they did because of the bug abusers should get compensated.

rant over,
Soko
 

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can u still atach horns of zàgol to any helmet?
 

duncis

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can u still atach horns of zàgol to any helmet?
not any, only to some, from what i found out You can attach it to most open face helmets (supremacy, sentinel, vain, chronicle, lion, etc)
I also asked DME and she said it was not intended but they will not be fixing it.
 

castanhas

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not any, only to some, from what i found out You can attach it to most open face helmets (supremacy, sentinel, vain, chronicle, lion, etc)
I also asked DME and she said it was not intended but they will not be fixing it.
ty, was curious about it :)
 

Colbey Kal

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MA accused me of cheating in Easter Mayhem 2018, for having an 'impossibly' low kill count in 'Defense'. I was DQ'd for both divisions.

They removed my scores and bumped everyone else up in 'both' categories after the announcement had been made.

I do not remember if I was banned from future events.

In the end after some support cases and public explanations, I was cleared of any wrong doing ( I used Perseus (L) / Mayhem (L) armor in Cat 2 with a rocket laucher to get 6th place. At that time I still took 0.1 damage instead of 'Deflect" or I would have lasted much longer. I simply took the damage (decay) instead of the totem. )

Even though I came away clear, it upset me enough that I took a 2 year break from EU.

I thought then, and think now, they did the right thing.

- MA made sure whatever 'my circumstances' were, there would be no harmful effects on other players.
- I had a chance to explain myself.
- MA had the chance to think things through and make a calm decision.

All told, MindArk fucked up their programming. It happens. Some people found out about it and did nothing. Some people found out and put that information to use.

This has happened in 'every' online game I've played in.... back to glitchy dye vat tubs that would turn cloths Black! (.....it was unreasonably valuable 20ish years ago.....) With a RCE is matters more, yes. In the end this is still a game. Players have been able to "un"officially buy/sell in-game currency as long as I can remember online games being around.

I'd say let MindArk figure things out, without being rushed.

I think the Yog users fucked up - but I am more defensive of them than most after being falsely accused of cheating myself.

// end whiskey fulled rant

EDIT: From the Easter 2018 Revised Results

Finally, we have decided to remove the permanent ban from future Mayhem events for those who remain disqualified from the Easter Mayhem 2018 event. Our team is instead finalizing the details of a more equitable system that will provide for escalating sanctions and penalties for unsportsmanlike and abusive behavior. That new system will be announced in detail alongside the next Mayhem event.
Originally Posted Here
What happened to that?
 
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StarGlider

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Many have called it, and i will join in, I think sanctions in way of temp or perma ban is appropriate in this case no less than it was in Danny0 and Cobra Boner's case. I know it takes human resources to go back and check all the logs and then fix all the mayhem results, but that also has to be done, and players who had ranked higher than they did because of the bug abusers should get compensated.
Soko
Only quoting to point this fact out.
If Mindark create an EULA/ToU for all to see, when you fire up Entropia, they should legally enforce it, else remove that notice on start up, as it means diddly squat.

Mindark please ENFORCE your ToU
 

Theocles

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One way to answer your question would be to check the Buying section on this forum. You might find some high caliber hunters, with minimal mining activities, looking for yogs...
Yeah I looked and saw that to, funny that they posted the buy threads in mayhem to. But had no idea about the reload bug.. :D sounds plausible
 

RickEngland

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What is the yog exploit then? Read the thread nothing about it, other than asking for bans.

It gives skill gain right for drilling. So assuming skill gain is one of the parameters for timing of loot return, which I'm pretty convinced it is, with HP gain. Then extra skill should provide extra return.

What else are some players doing with their pets?

On the matter of bans; you'll have no players left soon, and then no game. I'm not a fan of players hating too much on other players (your fellow community). Feels like the left wing mob, have taken over the asylum.

Part of the reason actually, I log in less.

There's a few statues in game now, so maybe they can be torn down haha.

Rick.
 
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What is the yog exploit then? Read the thread nothing about it, other than asking for bans.

It gives skill gain right for drilling. So assuming skill gain is one of the parameters for timing of loot return, which I'm pretty convinced it is, with HP gain. Then extra skill should provide extra return.

What else are some players doing with their pets?

On the matter of bans; you'll have no players left soon, and then no game. I'm not a fan of players hating too much on other players (your fellow community). Feels like the left wing mob, have taken over the asylum.

Part of the reason actually, I log in less.

There's a few statues in game now, so maybe they can be torn down haha.

Rick.
it gave drill speed, wich magicly worked for weapons aswell so people were having 55% total reload speed when 30% was max

seems to have been in the game for years where people have abused this in events to win
 

K_rupT

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What is also dumb , is the Yog wont give drill speed buff if you use SGA extractor , so it was bugged from the start of release
 

Rechinul

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i would say its time to bring MindArk Official Liquidator

"All items will be listed on auction for seven days, with no buyout and a start bid of 1 PED. "


Hope MA gives us an example like they have done before!

Back on the times ->


Some time ago, MindArk permanently suspended an avatar account due to the use of third-party programs that provided an unfair advantage over honest participants. (i do feel its same situation) After a thorough investigation and extended correspondence with the participant, it has been decided that the account will remain permanently suspended. The participant has accepted MindArk’s decision in this case

Among MindArk’s highest priorities for Entropia Universe are account security and the integrity and fairness of the real-cash economy. When a participant is suspected of (found to) violating that integrity or security MindArk takes it very seriously. In such cases of abuse, penalties can range from a warning from our Support team for minor offenses, to permanent account termination for more serious violations.

In cases of permanent account termination, access to the avatar account is blocked, resulting in all items currently in the avatar’s inventory and storage becoming frozen. Once the final investigation is completed and a requisite amount of time has transpired, those frozen items may, at the sole discretion of MindArk, be reintroduced into the Entropia Universe and made available to other participants.

The time has now come to reintroduce the virtual items from the suspended avatar’s account back into Entropia Universe, via the auction.....


continue reading here ->
https://www.planetcalypso.com/news/pages/2012/09/18/9542/index.xml?
 

Starkiller

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What is also dumb , is the Yog wont give drill speed buff if you use SGA extractor , so it was bugged from the start of release
I believe that's what the initial Bug report was about. It didn't mention however that it was providing reload speed and stuff though.
 

Aloisius

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i would say its time to bring MindArk Official Liquidator
Yup. There are enough players with enough money to buy all of entropia universe. Bidding starts at 1.00 satoshi.
 

das

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My My My, where is our community manager? Taking the weekend off after posting 4 times last month?

We need you MA, You need us... let's make this work?
 

BBpunisher

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how long has this bug been giving players a huge advantage?
 
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