Yog exploit: "smart" or "fraud"?

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niteflite

Provider
I have noticed that not all Entropians seem to share the same opinion about the current Yog-buff scandal.

In my other thread, https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?316626-Yog-buff-exploit-time-for-MA-to-take-a-stand, even respected members of the community have gone to great lengths to explain why they can't see it as a major issue. Admittedly, they seem to be in the minority, but I thought I'd share my thoughts, in the attempts to explain why the majority feels so strongly about it.

First of all, I hope we can all agree that the "loot pool" is our sacred pot, it's the Holy Grail that should be strenuously defended from undue appropriation. Of course, the loot pool also includes major event prizes.
What do I mean by "undue appropriation"? Any attempt to gain more share of it by using any means, i.e. not "playing by the rules of the game".

To illustrate how I and many others see the current episode, and why it is more serious than many previous scandals that the community generously offers on a regular basis, I will compare a hunter using a yog (horror or hatchling) to go beyond the fast reload "hard cap" of 30% and push it up to 55%, to a member of the public visiting a bank.

This person is only going there for some trivial tasks, as we are Entropians we'll assume "depositing", but upon entering the building, notices that the bank is completely empty and that all surveillance systems have been turned off. Driven by uncontrollable curiosity, he/she goes around the branch and finds out that the vault has been left open and some of its valuables exposed.

At this point the person is facing a moral dilemma. Call the police, report the problem and stand there to somehow work with the police and try to "lock and protect" the bank from thieves, or to seize the opportunity and take away as much as possible of what is available, knowing that the probabilities of being caught and prosecuted are minimal, and if they don't, someone else, less scrupulous, will.

The current furore is due to the fact that the vast majority like to think of themselves as belonging to the group that would call the police. Some others might think you would be mad not to seize a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Of course, human nature is such that nobody can ever predict how we behave in very unusual situations, and one can never say never.

Whatever your choice though, one thing is sure, if you are ever caught stealing money from a bank, wherever you are in the world, you'll be prosecuted and probably spend no less than 20 years in a jail. Apart from moral considerations, those acts undermine the entire construction of society, which would simply collapse and revert back to "the law of the jungle".

I haven't chosen the analogy to a bank by chance, but rather because of MA's continued tinkering with the idea of obtaining a banking license from the Swedish banking authorities (the Finansinspektionen).

Mindark's policy to keep a "light touch" on the game general controversies is understandable, as it keeps the cost of "justice administration" to a minimum and those resources can be allocated to other areas of development.

However, it stands to reason that one of the main functions of a bank is to ensure the security of all assets under custody. It is a prerequisite not only to running any financial institution, but also to guarantee the integrity of this game, as stated several times by the current CEO.

As painful as it may be, it is time for MA to put their money where their mouth is.
 

anonimity

Prowler
I wonder if it's a coincidence that someone pulled a LP-100 out of the token trader today? No doubt with mayhem tokens earned over past several mayhems.
 

GGG

Guardian
i think because more reload dont mean better or more loot like it was with earth shocker armor and weapons full with accuracy enhancers. Then people with imk2 and even with m83 where having 100-120%+ tt return every day. Does anyone got banned ?
 

Hego Damask

Dominant
I dont really care if they ban them or not, i dont care if they take back previsious rewards or not, it was their fault's too when not checked results or if they did, they didn't noticed it much earlier, and didnt care about the bug report.

But it would be sad if they not disqualify them for at least this mayhem, as they write it:

Any attempt at abusing team mechanics or any other Entropia Universe systems or features in order to gain an unfair advantage over other participants will be grounds for disqualification from the event, forfeiture of any prizes, and possible sanctions imposed on one’s Entropia Universe account.
The event description says possible sanctions, so i dont care if they choose to not sanction them, but its clearly written if abusing any unfair advantage it will result in disqualification from the event.

Well, i also understand it was happening at Friday, maybe its too serious thing to hurry the "answer" over a weekend, lets give them time so they can investigate and do what they feel they have to do.

I wont rush to conclusion's until i didnt see the result's of the summer mayhem, they still can disqualify them at there, without any warning given to them about it.
 

Piotr

Elite
i think because more reload dont mean better or more loot like it was with earth shocker armor and weapons full with accuracy enhancers. Then people with imk2 and even with m83 where having 100-120%+ tt return every day. Does anyone got banned ?
That was how the game worked, no bug, unlike this time (BTW imo can still tt profit just takes lot more time n effort)
 

Piotr

Elite
it was a bug too, and biggest problem is that MA let not tested items to the game
So u say all buffs and rings were bug too? If it was a bug they could have just set lower crit% dmg that we can get from items. 110% TT was easy without EST btw
Ppl were tt profiting with MM n imk2 from the getgo (almost), it was all about dpp.
 

niteflite

Provider
i think because more reload dont mean better or more loot like it was with earth shocker armor and weapons full with accuracy enhancers. Then people with imk2 and even with m83 where having 100-120%+ tt return every day. Does anyone got banned ?
It would be naive to think that higher DPS does not translate in better returns in normal grinding. Actually it would somehow be unfair, because higher DPS requires higher skills, which means more avatar progression, more time, more investment, and so on.

While that could be debatable though, there is no arguing that higher DPS directly translates into higher scoring in Mayhem events and higher prizes. So no, your objection is not valid.
 

atomicstorm

Marauder
It would be naive to think that higher DPS does not translate in better returns in normal grinding. Actually it would somehow be unfair, because higher DPS requires higher skills, which means more avatar progression, more time, more investment, and so on.

While that could be debatable though, there is no arguing that higher DPS directly translates into higher scoring in Mayhem events and higher prizes. So no, your objection is not valid.
I think we miss the point a bit... above all else except for the mayhem cheating, this allowed these folks to grind looter skills faster than you and that takes money from YOU.
 
Full disclosure, I am part of the society many of you are witch hunting about the yogs. I have never owned a yog, nor have I ever used one. I was aware they were bugged, but only thought they worked like normal reload items and would only give up to 15% reload total, and since I already had 15% from my rings and most people I know do as well I did not give it another thought.

I think what a lot of players are unaware of though is that MA was made aware of the bugged buff on yogs by support case a year or two ago. But as usual by MA all support cases end up in the trash, so they never get fixed.

The analogy then becomes 'You walk into a bank and all the tills are open and full of cash and nobody is there. You then call the bank manager and they say "we'll look into it, please keep and eye out to see if its fixed in the future." You then come back to the bank every day for over a year and things never get fixed. Maybe its a feature and the money is supposed to be given out to loyal customers. Either way, nobody that can do anything about it cares'

So what do you do? Do you take some money and keep it quiet? Do you take some money and go to the police and say "hey, I found this at the bank, they're giving away money and don't care." Do you walk away and let other people loot the bank because nobody fucking cares?

Now I know Kayla took the money to the police, and I KNOW there are players that took the money and kept it quiet. But there are many yogs out there not in my society that I'm sure have been used daily for months if not years. If MA should do something about it, it should be to look at their own support policies and not be arrogant enough to let shit like this keep happening over and over.
 

San

Stalker
I think what a lot of players are unaware of though is that MA was made aware of the bugged buff on yogs by support case a year or two ago.
THAT is the bit of information I was asking about in at least two other threads already. Is it possible to dig this support case up and quote it on the forum?
 
THAT is the bit of information I was asking about in at least two other threads already. Is it possible to dig this support case up and quote it on the forum?
Was not made by me, was just told support was aware when people were talking about it. Can ask around though to see.
 
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Count0

Alpha
...
I think what a lot of players are unaware of though is that MA was made aware of the bugged buff on yogs by support case a year or two ago. But as usual by MA all support cases end up in the trash, so they never get fixed.
...
If MA should do something about it, it should be to look at their own support policies and not be arrogant enough to let shit like this keep happening over and over.
The truth, which no one seems to speak directly, is:
MA knew very well and accepted the situation, this is why no one is banned, not even temporarily, for investigation, the exploiters only got removed from scoreboards.

MA didn`t do anything for simple reasons: they are greedy, and / or they know they can get away with almost anything, and some of them are behaving unprofessionally, without calculating / considering any consequences.

Greedy: simple maths, higher reload equals higher tt cycled, equals more rake, more money for MA! (and this is another example of the old saying in EU: bugs that cost MA money gets fixed, bugs that don`t cost MA money don`t get fixed / or need a lot of time to get fixed).

Behaving unprofessionally, without calculating / considering any consequences: they didn`t consider the gain in looter skills, they didn`t consider the gain in event prizes, they didn`t consider this bug will indirectly impact on many other people game play.

And ultimately, even if such a situation would become a big issue and get public attention, they know for sure they will get away with this...
 

~ Cirrus ~

Old Alpha
I don't understand why all this talk...

Personally I don't really care how much this cheating, or any other cheating, has impacted other players, including myself.
I mean it's not the most important part.
Especially since it's done now, it's a little late to go back...
I think it's best to think, and prevent all the cheating "yet to come".

Then I said that MA should act, for one reason, which is a reason of principle.

I'm not in favor of making rules for everything.
But unfortunately there is no other way, because most people don't have the mental and ethical means to regulate themselves.

It reminds me of Marina Abramovic's performance (Rhythm 0).
Check it out.
Leave people without rules, and they go crazy...

So, rules are unfortunately necessary.

Now there's another thing that is indispensable, and that goes hand in hand with the rules.
It's the consequences of breaking those rules.

Many people who follow the rules, do not do so out of common sense.
They do it out of apprehension of the consequences.
It's sad, but that's the way it's been since the dawn of time...

If there are no consequences, or if these consequences are not applied, then we might as well remove all the rules, because they have no effect on their own. :wise:
 

Aloisius

Prowler
I don't understand why all this talk...

Personally I don't really care how much this cheating, or any other cheating, has impacted other players, including myself.
I mean it's not the most important part.
Especially since it's done now, it's a little late to go back...
I think it's best to think, and prevent all the cheating "yet to come".

Then I said that MA should act, for one reason, which is a reason of principle.

I'm not in favor of making rules for everything.
But unfortunately there is no other way, because most people don't have the mental and ethical means to regulate themselves.

It reminds me of Marina Abramovic's performance (Rhythm 0).
Check it out.
Leave people without rules, and they go crazy...

So, rules are unfortunately necessary.

Now there's another thing that is indispensable, and that goes hand in hand with the rules.
It's the consequences of breaking those rules.

Many people who follow the rules, do not do so out of common sense.
They do it out of apprehension of the consequences.
It's sad, but that's the way it's been since the dawn of time...

If there are no consequences, or if these consequences are not applied, then we might as well remove all the rules, because they have no effect on their own. :wise:
You are promoting maria abramovic and rules at the same time?!!? Oh, woops, I thought for a second there you were promoting her. That is the worst thing a person can do to a civilization. By the way we should be telling people not to watch that shit.

I agree on the principle thing. If a person has no principles, what good is it to anyone? These are the times when we are going to have to face the consequences of our choices in life. Karma is the nicey nice version. War is the maria abramovic verion.

It's funny, I went to look for an example of the story where the kid found 20,000 dollars in a bag near the ATM and turned it in. What I discovered from doing this kind of alarmed my bells. There were more than one story with different amounts different places. All the links were MSM links. The feeling I got from the story were not mushy at all. I came away from the story thinking what was wrong with that kid, LOL. Then it occured to me, they don't call it programming for nothing.

I think it's more important than ever to NOT watch what they are spoon feeding us on television. It's hard enough to make moral choices without the satanic influencers. You KNOW what's right.

Anymore talking about it will make me sound like a Trump campaigner.
 
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~ Cirrus ~

Old Alpha
you are promoting maria abramovic and rules at the same time? oh haha i thought for a second there you were promoting her. that is the worst thing a person can do to a civilization. by the way we should be telling people not to watch that shit.

I agree on the principle thing. If a person has no principles, what good is to anyone? this is the times when we are going to have to face the consequences of our choices in life. karma is the nicey nice version. war is the maria abramovic verion.
I didn't promote anything, as I said, it just made me think about it.

I think that's a good example, and I don't understand what you're saying about her, and the war..?
Don't get either in what it would be "bad".
But that's off-topic anyway.

If you think that "Karma" can be a threat enough to keep some people from breaking the rules, especially in Occidental civilization, then you are very naive...

Doesn't seem to stop a lot of people from cheating in a game anyway... :rolleyes:

So to come back to what I was saying, and especialy about this game;

If breaking the rules is not practically punished, then the rules themselves are useless.


PS:

Besides, if you reread, you'll see that I don't even "promote" rules either.

I just observe that you can't do without them when it comes to managing a group of people.

Moreover here we're talking about a game, where people are competing on the same field.
I don't really see how that would be possible without rules..

So here the rules don't need to be "promoted", they are the essence of what makes a game, or a competition.
No rules, no game.
 
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~ Cirrus ~

Old Alpha
I think it's more important than ever to NOT watch what they are spoon feeding us on television. It's hard enough to make moral choices without the satanic influencers. You KNOW what's right.
It sounds like you're alot into "conspiracy".

As for TV, I threw mine in the trash 15 years ago,
so you're preaching to the choir.

But as far as saying the girl is Satanist, I'm very doubtful.
Anyway I was talking about a performance that took place 45 years ago..

So if she really became a Satanist, it may have been as a result of that.. :)
Seeing, and feeling what human beings become when they are in an environment without rules, and where your acts have no consequences..

It was just an example to show that rules are needed.
And I repeat that rules by themselves are useless if they are not enforced with real consequences.

Why people cheat in this game ?
Because they know they're safe to do.. Easy as ABC.
 

~ Cirrus ~

Old Alpha
I think what a lot of players are unaware of though is that MA was made aware of the bugged buff on yogs by support case a year or two ago. But as usual by MA all support cases end up in the trash, so they never get fixed.
That's right alot of people didn't know.
But I doubt they'll be surprised to find out... :rolleyes:
 
Ultimately though it comes down to this. Are you going to continue playing the game or not?

Assuming MA were aware of the bug for 2 years, and didn't immediately fix it, suggests it wasn't as serious as some consider it to be.

For me, I get increasingly concerned about being wrapped up in some bug I might not be aware of, and then suffer horrible punushment because of it. I dont run yog, as I'm not a miner so I didn't train one.

But what if one of my many pets or other bolt on item is providing unknown advantages I'm not aware of, and i think it's normal.

So it is extremely worrying when the community calls for pain, once something us identified. We need to be careful hanging people from the nearest tree.

Rick
 

711

Site Admin
Staff member
There are several other existing threads on the topic of the Yog pet buff, please continue discussion there. No need for multiple threads on the same topic, which makes it hard for other members to follow and participate in the discussion.

As for the Maria Abramovic discussion, please keep in mind the following forum rule:

Forum Rules said:
3.6 - Real-world Controversial Discussion
Discussion of real world politics, nationalism, religion, war, or other similarly controversial topics is NOT permitted or appropriate for this forum. PlanetCalypsoForum, as the game, is a global community with players from many different countries around the world. Discussion of such topics often disrupts the forum community. Therefore, refrain from starting or participating in any such discussions, as they will be deleted from the forum without notice.
:locked:
 
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