Mining Skill Value Gains for Finders & Amps

I’ve finally got around to evaluating the skills I’ve gained during part of my mining activity, and I think I can make some calculations about the TT value of the skills gained with various finders and amps.

From my records



I used the skill value calculator in Entropia Tools to get the TT value of my Geology and Prospector skills at the start and end of using each Finder/Amp combination. As these make up 71% of Prospector, I’ve multiplied the sum of these two up by 100/71 to get the final column, which is the total skill gain value in Pec per bomb, including all the locked skills.

The Z20, TK220 and TK320 were maxed when I started using them – I don’t have any figures for their SIB periods.

The results seem to me to be consistent, and lead to two conclusions.

1) The base skill gain of each Finder is approx. 0.13 Pec per bomb. The decay values of each Finder from Wiki are OF-105 2.05, Z20 2.91, TK220 3.96. So the deeper Finders actually have a far worse skill gain per Pec of decay than the basic ones. Furthermore, the OF-105 and the Z20 have similar depth, yet the OF-105 has significantly better skill gain per pec of decay than the Z20.

2) The additional skill gain from an OA-101 (Lvl 2) is approx 0.06, and from an OA-102 (Lvl 3) is 0.12. This is in proportion of their total decay to the base bomb cost, the OA-101 increasing the bomb cost from 1 Ped to 1.50 Ped, and the OA-102 to 2 Ped.

I think the second conclusion, regarding the amps, might have been expected, but the first one, that all Finders seem to give similar skill gain, is a surprise to me. I would like to know if anyone can corroborate that other Finders give the same skill gain, and that UL Finders, such as the OF-105, have higher skill gain per Pec of decay than their L equivalents.

The TT values are the ESI chip sizes needed to store the skills. The Jan 2012 MU for mining skills is about 600% (down from 2000% in 2009), which translates into about 0.78 Ped per 100 Ped of bombs dropped.

There has been some debate about the multiplier effect of amps - I'd suggest that since amps only have one quoted decay figure, for an OA-102, the loot is multiplied by slightly less than 200%, with the remaining small % being diverted into skills. That would make amps consistent with the bomb/Finder methodology.

Edited 14/Jan/2012
Added values for TK320
I have now bought a VRX2000 which still has SIB. The SIB on Hunting weapons has been tested at 10%, and my figure so far is consistent with this, with the Lvl 5 amp multiplying in proportion.
Now the introduction of Mining Skill Enhancers imply that using a Finder in its SIB period results in a reduced return rate, which the Enhancers mitigate. This would also be consistent with Hunting weapons. My own return rate has been so variable lately that this cannot be proven, but it would seem wise not to use a Finder in its SIB period (or use the Enhancers once the Tiers are unlocked).

A finder gives no more skillgain than the rest, skillgains come from the hits in the ground so it doesnt matter what tool you use.

were any of these runs done during one of the skill bonus events?

Awesome data, thank you for taking the time to collect it--I know well how hard it is to collect such large datasets.

The hypothesis that seems obvious is that skillgains are in proportion to (bomb cost + amp decay), and have nothing to do with the finder decay. What Legion just said. Such that if you could drop a hypothetical 0 ped bomb, you would get no skillgains.

These results are in partial agreement with Jimmy B's scanner experiment:

Economy of Scanners

His experiment shows that the tt scanner (which decays less) gives nearly the same amount of skills per click as a higher level scanner which decays 3x as much. Although the higher level scanner did give more skills (only by about 10-15% per click). Your data do not seem to show this small increase, though with only 2x decay for the TK220 compared to OF-105, it's possible that the experimental noise is blocking this effect. In any event, that part is consistent, or at least not inconsistent.

What is not consistent with the scanner experiment is that skills per ped do not decrease with increasing amps. Which was rather what I had been assuming, based on the scanning experiment. Elated to find out that was a bad assumption

So what hypothesis might one make to extrapolate to other EU activities?

I would also be curious if the various excavators have different skillgains per ped of extracted material, and per ped of tool decay. You don't happen to have any data on that, do you?

Again, well done

My data is somewhat old, I've just got round to analysing it, so it was all before the 3x skilling event.

I've no data for Excavators.

The result that skill gains have nothing to do with finder decay was a surprise, because I thought it was accepted that that was the case for hunting weapons. And when I published some other, less well analysed, data about a year ago in another mining thread, I was told my data was faulty because it didn't agree with the accepted view that mining finders worked the same way. That was the reason I've only just published this again, I've just tightened up the evaluation.

As for skillgains coming from hits in the ground, firstly, I think skill gains also come on misses (though I can't remember, and can't verify this until I go mining again), secondly my feeling is that deeper finders give lower hit rates, again I have no exact data, both points would contradict that view.

chevrons said:

My data is somewhat old, I've just got round to analysing it, so it was all before the 3x skilling event.

I've no data for Excavators.

The result that skill gains have nothing to do with finder decay was a surprise, because I thought it was accepted that that was the case for hunting weapons. And when I published some other, less well analysed, data about a year ago in another mining thread, I was told my data was faulty because it didn't agree with the accepted view that mining finders worked the same way. That was the reason I've only just published this again, I've just tightened up the evaluation.

As for skillgains coming from hits in the ground, firstly, I think skill gains also come on misses (though I can't remember, and can't verify this until I go mining again), secondly my feeling is that deeper finders give lower hit rates, again I have no exact data, both points would contradict that view.

Click to expand...

Excellent research and well-presented. +Rep. Your individual runs give suprisingly tight results--I would have expected more variation, esp since you don't track all the skills. Quite fascinating that the skillgain tracks so well with the cost of bomb+amp, without regard to finder, depth, hitrate, etc.

As for weapons, there might be some "accepted view" but it isn't backed up with much data for sure. If anything, your research here could suggest that only ammo/amp cost should be compared to skillgain with ranged weapons. More likely is that they are just two entirely different systems. You very rarely get skillgains when you miss with a weapon, while you often get skillgains when you don't find any resources. Then there is the kill skill bonus as well which affects hunting skillgains.

One reason why the decay on the finders does not seem to affect the skill gains is because compared to the PED spent on bombs/amps, it is insignificantly small. You're dropping at least 1 PED per bomb, and the difference between 2.05 pec and 3.96 pec is really only less than 2% of the total PED burn, meaning a possible difference between 0.13 pec and 0.1326 pec per drop of skills gained, which is hard to test for without dropping less than 10K bombs.

i'd say it like this. Skills have no real value, except a market value. Skills thus are not affected by decay at all. Skills are purely an indication to where loot is at and well ofcourse they make u able to use better tools and do more damage, but other than that they mean nothing. And i also no longer belive you get false skillgains. Ie if you shoot in thin air, it is just like bombing and get a miss but getting a skillgain also.

Why i'm saying this is because i have finally cracked what the mining skills mean and where they point to loot. Only got miner left to decrypt but that will be quite far away in time

Legion said:

i'd say it like this. Skills have no real value, except a market value. Skills thus are not affected by decay at all.

Click to expand...

Slap on some amps on your finders, and thus increase your decay per drop, and then compare your skill gains to a run without amps.
You will find that the number of skill messages is roughly the same, but that each message has more "weight" resulting in a bigger skill increase.

Higher tt cost per drop (or tt cost per click in crafting, or tt cost per shot in hunting) will result in faster skilling. In the end skills gained per ped spent will probably be the same as when you would have done a low cost activity, but you will have skilled way faster with the higher cost per drop/click/shot.

Your claim suggests that even with amps on your finders you would get the same skill gain, which is a false statement.


And good luck with your umpteenth time that you have cracked the system. I am sure it will end the same as Rattexx' 629th time..... his systems worked so well that he went broke and hardly, if ever, plays these days. For some reason that doesn't stop him (or you) from claiming you know it all.

Both of you seem more active on the forum than ingame. If i had cracked the system i *think* i would be ingame making peds?

dutch chap said:

Slap on some amps on your finders, and thus increase your decay per drop, and then compare your skill gains to a run without amps.
You will find that the number of skill messages is roughly the same, but that each message has more "weight" resulting in a bigger skill increase.

Higher tt cost per drop (or tt cost per click in crafting, or tt cost per shot in hunting) will result in faster skilling. In the end skills gained per ped spent will probably be the same as when you would have done a low cost activity, but you will have skilled way faster with the higher cost per drop/click/shot.

Your claim suggests that even with amps on your finders you would get the same skill gain, which is a false statement.


And good luck with your umpteenth time that you have cracked the system. I am sure it will end the same as Rattexx' 629th time..... his systems worked so well that he went broke and hardly, if ever, plays these days. For some reason that doesn't stop him (or you) from claiming you know it all.

Both of you seem more active on the forum than ingame. If i had cracked the system i *think* i would be ingame making peds?

Click to expand...

Ah well i havent checked it that way but yes could be correct. i might have sounded my text a bit bad perhaps.. as usuall.. i'm hungover and tired

As for my theory it has worked constantly on every run i made to 100%

nobody cracks it.. if you by a miracle manage that, it will be followed by an update.. and your down to zero again

chevrons said:

My data is somewhat old, I've just got round to analysing it, so it was all before the 3x skilling event.

I've no data for Excavators.

The result that skill gains have nothing to do with finder decay was a surprise, because I thought it was accepted that that was the case for hunting weapons. And when I published some other, less well analysed, data about a year ago in another mining thread, I was told my data was faulty because it didn't agree with the accepted view that mining finders worked the same way. That was the reason I've only just published this again, I've just tightened up the evaluation.

As for skillgains coming from hits in the ground, firstly, I think skill gains also come on misses (though I can't remember, and can't verify this until I go mining again), secondly my feeling is that deeper finders give lower hit rates, again I have no exact data, both points would contradict that view.

Click to expand...

You definitely do get skills from misses. I'm a n00b miner so i miss A LOT trust me I've counted it and over 1200 bombs found that i get a skill a higher % of the time from a miss than a hit

With an unmaxed tool, skill gains must be a bit higher...Otherwise what will be the purpose of SIB ?

in my opinion mining unamped a vrx3k gives more skill than a tk120. regarding to amps it's in proportion. one oa104 gives 4x more skills, a oa109 gives 20x more skill

Laurent said:

With an unmaxed tool, skill gains must be a bit higher...Otherwise what will be the purpose of SIB ?

Click to expand...

Its been a while since I have been in SIB for mining but when I was I noticed more weight given to skill gains and more skill bonuses (ie in mining 3 or more gains grouped together in one bomb)

Noticed the same thing when in SIB with my recent Melee activity more multiple skill gains and what seemed to be more skill value per gain as well.

I'm not sure of the weighted range given to skills but from my standpoint the more PED you are burning the higher those gains are when you get them.

Getting the right balance of cost, return, and skill accrual seems to be another avenue to success. Maybe that is one facet that is overlooked quite often.
Posted via Mobile Device

I am bumping this thread because it is still relevant, and I have now added data from the deeper Finders, including the SIB period on the VRX2000.

The skill gain on the TK320 over the last 4 months matches exactly the skill gains on the lower Finders from 3 years ago (which I think refutes Travolta's opinion above about unamped finders).