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Developer Notes #11 - Loot 2.0

Ace Flyster said:
Oh dear,

I laugh at people that thought loot 2.0 meant instant profit for all.

To keep all the whiners in perspective.

THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE PED IS OFF OTHER PLAYERS.

Now back to the whiners expecting over 100% returns ROFL
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I didn't expect instant profit, but I certainly didn't expect to be doing much worse after a VU that promised better returns for 98% of the population. I think that's what a lot of people are confused/upset about.
 
i was expecting better return, when MA said tha loot will improve for 98% of the players, i tought i was part of that, i hope mindark makes a statement where they calm down people, if MA will tell me some bullshit about me beeing unlucky and everything working correctly, i will continue hunting, otherwise i also wait for a "fix" ( the fix is can also just be a placebo )
 
StarGlider said:
I'm not expecting over 100% returns.
I'm also not expecting 50-80% returns either, but I've been getting them.

That's me done from EU again for another 6 months or so I think, will try again when they sort this shit out, if they sort this shit out.
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It is really shame that MA fucked this VU at the same time drawing loads of players who were in hiatus and came back hyped about positive changes, just to deepen their mistrust for MA and go away again...

I know few on my fl that came back to play after months of break, then after two days of bad beats they said they go play other more fun games...

hope they fix it rather soon and apologize to everybody...
 
I think the eco rating disheartened a lot of us. Having 10/10 ha and still eco ratings of 40 to 60 or as low as 13 percent on n.g.l. type items or lower makes u go hmmmm.... is this worth continuing or not. When they said it was skill based I think some of us were thinking it'd be better ratings if u were maxed, etc. I know tweaks will come but think u get what I'm saying... then we play, get low returns and further evaluate...

Could be why m.a. never put eco type ratings in previously even though they mentioned it in dev notes, etc.

I do think u are correct and a major hof/ progressive jackpot is coming to someone, and other players are paying for that... some say loot 2.0 is similar to bat sim... thunk there may be something to that...

Suspect this is phase 1... eval of mob vs skill level is phase 2... and will up eco If u play at ur level, but will pigeon hole u potentially when it is live...

sandbox will be downsized.
 
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Teiwaz Storm said:
It is really shame that MA fucked this VU at the same time drawing loads of players who were in hiatus and came back hyped about positive changes, just to deepen their mistrust for MA and go away again...

I know few on my fl that came back to play after months of break, then after two days of bad beats they said they go play other more fun games...

hope they fix it rather soon and apologize to everybody...
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When I heard there was a loot overhaul, I considered coming out of retirement and playing again.

After reading the forums, I can see that it was done in the classic MindArk fashion; over-promise and under-deliver. I don't know why I expected anything less. Nope, this girl will stay in hibernation. Best of luck to those that still don't see the game (or more importantly, the company) for what it is.
 
syntax said:
When I heard there was a loot overhaul, I considered coming out of retirement and playing again.

After reading the forums, I can see that it was done in the classic MindArk fashion; over-promise and under-deliver. I don't know why I expected anything less. Nope, this girl will stay in hibernation. Best of luck to those that still don't see the game (or more importantly, the company) for what it is.
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Never take what you read on PCF as the "grand truth" especially whining. You can't make your own opinion by merely listening to few others, you gotta try it out for yourself and decide for yourself, otherwise sheep mentality.
 
I see it as one of the problems today is that all players know so much about eco hunting so there is less money into the famous "lootpool" then it was like ~10+ years ago when ppl didnt have pages as entropialife and skill calculators to help them. At that time alot of ppl was loosing a little, but today there is few rich ppl loosing alot - thats one of the differences.

Also there is much more "money drains out of the game, and not back to the players" today with all the LA owners, Deed owners and etc then it was before also.

As a previous person in this thread said: You can only get money from this game from other players losses. This is so true, and there is no way Loot 2.0 can fix this.


We need more mystique in this game again, but most of all more fairness. It should not be only about playing at the right time to catch them loot waves to survive in entropia.
 
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mastermesh said:
I think the eco rating disheartened a lot of us. Having 10/10 ha and still eco ratings of 40 to 60 or as low as 13 percent on n.g.l. type items or lower makes u go hmmmm.... is this worth continuing or not. When they said it was skill based I think some of us were thinking it'd be better ratings if u were maxed, etc.
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But there isn't anything new about all this, it can only surprise people who never did any homework or listened to a mentor. It is possibly a bit brutal and in-the-face to have the display in-game now which was a number you searched in Entropedia or a friendly few sentences of advice from your mentor before. I have nothing in my inventory which I like less than before because of it.
 
San said:
But there isn't anything new about all this, it can only surprise people who never did any homework or listened to a mentor. It is possibly a bit brutal and in-the-face to have the display in-game now which was a number you searched in Entropedia or a friendly few sentences of advice from your mentor before. I have nothing in my inventory which I like less than before because of it.
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See how prices of Omegaton A10x have soared. People were told for years how good those were... but it took an 'official' number for them to believe.
 
mastermesh said:
I think the eco rating disheartened a lot of us. Having 10/10 ha and still eco ratings of 40 to 60 or as low as 13 percent on n.g.l. type items or lower makes u go hmmmm....
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Don't know for others but I'm disappointed for eco ratings as is now because it don't tell you enough about what can you expect as skills, armor and fap decay, buffs and other magic items effect and enhancers are not included in displayed number. Everyone did know that imk2 is eco gun, we didn't need entire VU with special number added to see what we already know and we still don't know how exactly is that rating related to loot and avatar efficiency.

It remind me on time when MA introduced mob levels and we had several cases where mob level didn't tell you nothing about difficulty to kill it. Even more it sem that various mobs, various maturity or various planet of origin don't have nothing in common and that mob level is not standardized in mode to be able to compare avatar level and mob difficulty.
 
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Haruto Rat said:
See how prices of Omegaton A10x have soared. People were told for years how good those were... but it took an 'official' number for them to believe.
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lol, the ignorance. How cute.

Never heard of resellers?

Just a few people who bought them all (again) and are pumping the price up.
 
LOL @ this thread... its like a shot of heroin...as the Loot 2.0 is injected everyone's like wooooo...yeyyy..profit...well done MA...Party on... Finally... by page 25 its peaking every ones fucked out of their minds on the high...then after page 25 is when shit starts wearing off (aka truth starts surfacing after tests) reality hits and the downer starts and by page 51 when the high has worn out fuucckkkk you MA ...everyone's suicidal aka quitting and selling out.....:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
syntax said:
When I heard there was a loot overhaul, I considered coming out of retirement and playing again.

After reading the forums, I can see that it was done in the classic MindArk fashion; over-promise and under-deliver. I don't know why I expected anything less. Nope, this girl will stay in hibernation. Best of luck to those that still don't see the game (or more importantly, the company) for what it is.
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You are taking biased opinion from a few and generalizing. From a few that i know who track there loot and were doing bad before VU are all doing much better after the VU. The sad thing is when people do well they don't shout out about it, the moment they go a bit negative all hell breaks lose. Also a lot of people who i see crying about loot are in the 2% who were doing much better then the rest due to high investment in gear ( rings/cloaks/est...bla bla bla) and were doing 95%+ before vu and have taken a hit after the VU.

I do not have enough data yet firstly to conclude anything, so i will reserve that for later. However what i do hear/see is people who were doing extremely well before VU are not doing as well, while those who were losing there ass off before are doing much better.

Divinity
 
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Hence why, coined by other people, loot 2.0 is now called the robin hood update.
 
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atomicstorm said:
Hence why, coined by other people, loot 2.0 is now called the robin hood update.
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Looking at that loot poll thread, its more like the Bernie Sanders update for some :laugh:
 
I actually like that we've got weapon eco information from the "horses mouth" so to speak. Sure there're player sources of information, although I'd take official information over any 'guide'.

I made one major change for this VU with amps.

I've used an unlimited adjusted bolga whip for a couple of years now. For 1000's of runs I used it without an amp, because I didn't trust the impact of putting an amp on a "below average" durability melee weapon.

Then for the last few months I used a melee amp I (one), thinking that if there's positive or negative impact, then an amp 'one' shouldn't make too much of a difference.

Since the new VU I've used melee amp IV (four). It's got 65.1 eco now. I would've never known that was a good idea before the update, so I'm thankful for that. Mainly for more clarity for melee, I used to have a A105 few years ago, and I know I had better returns with guns using that.

I've had some loot wobbles after the new VU, although I got through the weekend managing to run a decent number of whips....phew.

I'm still terrified about dumping some cr*p mats to TT I know just wont sell, or dumping some auction listed stuff that wont sell even with a listing that just covers auction fee. I really would like some clarity on that issue, but if we are punished for it even for managing to sell 90% of loot that seems a little excessive.

I prefer more 'official' information and glad we're heading down that road.

Regards

Rick
 
This ECO system is weird. I'm 53/50 hit/damage

45/45 weapon is showing same ECO % as 50/50 weapon on which I'm obviously not maxed.

How is a weapon same ECO for me if it's hit/crit is 8/11% lower vs 10/10 gun...

I would understand that lvl is reached, but all the talk about beeing smart and eco and not shooting non-SIB/not reached SIB guns is bullcrap

EDIT: That magical ECO number does not calculate markup, which means, yet again, absolutely nothing and we are still doing weapon compare/DPP calculations to choose weapons/amps. Absolutely pointless thing for L items.
 
NPV said:
This ECO system is weird. I'm 53/50 hit/damage

45/45 weapon is showing same ECO % as 50/50 weapon on which I'm obviously not maxed.

How is a weapon same ECO for me if it's hit/crit is 8/11% lower vs 10/10 gun...

I would understand that lvl is reached, but all the talk about beeing smart and eco and not shooting non-SIB/not reached SIB guns is bullcrap

EDIT: That magical ECO number does not calculate markup, which means, yet again, absolutely nothing and we are still doing weapon compare/DPP calculations to choose weapons/amps. Absolutely pointless thing for L items.
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1) As it is even said in tooltip when you mouse over eco rating, it shows you the value for a maxed out weapon so you don't end up comparing apples and oranges. So both a maxed out player and a not maxed out player will see the same eco rating, but only the first one will take full advantage of it.

2) What you want would be quite impossible to achieve, since we don't have a fixed MU, but it varies from case to case. Anyway, it was a proven that there is a clear 1 to 1 relation between DPP and eco rating (so, in other words, the eco rating is just a public, easier to read, reading of the DPP) so, if you prefer, you can keep making your math based on the DPP model and your results would be totally accurate.
 
NPV said:
This ECO system is weird. I'm 53/50 hit/damage

45/45 weapon is showing same ECO % as 50/50 weapon on which I'm obviously not maxed.

How is a weapon same ECO for me if it's hit/crit is 8/11% lower vs 10/10 gun...

I would understand that lvl is reached, but all the talk about beeing smart and eco and not shooting non-SIB/not reached SIB guns is bullcrap

EDIT: That magical ECO number does not calculate markup, which means, yet again, absolutely nothing and we are still doing weapon compare/DPP calculations to choose weapons/amps. Absolutely pointless thing for L items.
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Well as said multiple times in this thread and others, the eco rating is for the maxed weapon 'not' the skill of the avatar. So I assume the 10/10 hit ability rule would apply, before a player would even consider using said weapon.

However MA have indicated that skills do and 'will' matter more in future. Maybe there's another hidden Max under the hood, that measure x amount of level past a professional requirement to step up loot returns from say 95% to 99%.....who knows.

Rick
 
Divinity said:
I do not have enough data yet firstly to conclude anything, so i will reserve that for later. However what i do hear/see is people who were doing extremely well before VU are not doing as well, while those who were losing there ass off before are doing much better.

Divinity
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Let's say that's true, I can see some long term sense in that.

If we found ourselves in a situation that the only ones shooting where the top 5%, and the rest of the community were dropping out of the game at a fast rate, then that economic model is doomed to failure.

It's much better to have a lot more players at lower level contributing say 0.1% of their loot to the top players, than just a few middle players giving 1% or more of their returns to the top players. Everyone benefits long term, as more people will deposit.

Put it this way I made a deposit for the new VU, which I wouldn't have done until my next real life payday kicked in. I'm sure many other players did the same. So who knows the top players may have actually benefited in returns slightly by more contributors even if it appears they didn't.

Rick
 
RickEngland said:
Let's say that's true, I can see some long term sense in that.

If we found ourselves in a situation that the only ones shooting where the top 5%, and the rest of the community were dropping out of the game at a fast rate, then that economic model is doomed to failure.

It's much better to have a lot more players at lower level contributing say 0.1% of their loot to the top players, than just a few middle players giving 1% or more of their returns to the top players. Everyone benefits long term, as more people will deposit.

Put it this way I made a deposit for the new VU, which I wouldn't have done until my next real life payday kicked in. I'm sure many other players did the same. So who knows the top players may have actually benefited in returns slightly by more contributors even if it appears they didn't.

Rick
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That is exactly the situation we were in. Why do u think MA reacted with loot 2.0? I do not think this was a proactive measure but more a reactive one. You should take a look at AH pages to see how much activity has reduced, more so on calypso.

The most important part of that puzzle is maxed imk2 + buffed users. Can they still continue to beat the 100% tt returns over the long term. The more people who can do that, the more tt is being taken from everyone else's. In an ideal world everyone should make less then 100% but the person with the best gear and skills should make close enough (98% for example). The remaining 2% they should also need to work on getting the mu bit to be able to get to the green zone. The higher level mobs can have more mu to balance out or give a meaning to skilling up.

Fundamentally if EU wants to move out from being a niche players game to a more mass market one, they need to make the game more fun and less expensive as the average gamer cannot even come close to funding the game EU is as of now ( by funding here i mean both in terms of $'s and time). Currently they are providing employment to a few people ( some of who are permanent residents of the forum) and to be fair since there livelihood is being funded courtesy EU/MA, being a fanboy is the least they owe to EU/MA.

Divinity
 
Divinity said:
You are taking biased opinion from a few and generalizing. From a few that i know who track there loot and were doing bad before VU are all doing much better after the VU. The sad thing is when people do well they don't shout out about it, the moment they go a bit negative all hell breaks lose. Also a lot of people who i see crying about loot are in the 2% who were doing much better then the rest due to high investment in gear ( rings/cloaks/est...bla bla bla) and were doing 95%+ before vu and have taken a hit after the VU.
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Of course, I agree with you if I was only basing my opinion on a few negative posts; but I have a 14-year history of MindArk disappointments and miscues helping to form my bias. The large number of negative responses to the VU were at least enough to see that the trend continues. ;)
 
Anyone who can't figure out adding amp (high eco) to a weapon (lower eco) will make the combo more eco, not less eco... should not play this game.
I mean, you should be able to figure this out all on your own, not because someone smarter than you tells you and then you blindly trust him.

I won't win any popularity points for saying this out loud. Sorry for being politically incorrect! :yup:
 
Interesting angle of view.

If imk2 have eco rating 90% and user get about 92% TT loot then what is expected from lower rating weapons?
For example improved omegaton 2870 is about 67.8% that is 23% diference.
So MA say that user of imp m2870 can do as well with success because of game knowledge and bla bla.
How about other weapons witch eco rating is lower than that?
Sure users of those weapons have even more game knowledge and will win?

Solution is not enough with just Loot 2.0.

Please MA stop selling us roasted fog and give us better gear.
 
Fifth said:
Anyone who can't figure out adding amp (high eco) to a weapon (lower eco) will make the combo more eco, not less eco... should not play this game.
I mean, you should be able to figure this out all on your own, not because someone smarter than you tells you and then you blindly trust him.

I won't win any popularity points for saying this out loud. Sorry for being politically incorrect! :yup:
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Well, not to mention that we actually have tools that tell you this...
 
Dan59 said:
If imk2 have eco rating 90% and user get about 92% TT loot then what is expected from lower rating weapons?
For example improved omegaton 2870 is about 67.8% that is 23% diference.
So MA say that user of imp m2870 can do as well with success because of game knowledge and bla bla.
Click to expand...
Obviously eco is not the deciding factor, something else is. I don't know what that mysterious "else" is. One thing? A combination of several different things? Something that was mentioned in developer notes? Something that has never been mentioned in developer notes?

I don't know the answer. Saying simply "eco decides your loot" is prolly not a totally wrong answer but quite obviously there's some important stuff missing.
 
syntax said:
Of course, I agree with you if I was only basing my opinion on a few negative posts; but I have a 14-year history of MindArk disappointments and miscues helping to form my bias. The large number of negative responses to the VU were at least enough to see that the trend continues. ;)
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I am with you on that. Personal history is the only thing that matters. :beerchug:
 
Divinity said:
That is exactly the situation we were in. Why do u think MA reacted with loot 2.0? I do not think this was a proactive measure but more a reactive one. You should take a look at AH pages to see how much activity has reduced, more so on calypso.

The most important part of that puzzle is maxed imk2 + buffed users. Can they still continue to beat the 100% tt returns over the long term. The more people who can do that, the more tt is being taken from everyone else's. In an ideal world everyone should make less then 100% but the person with the best gear and skills should make close enough (98% for example). The remaining 2% they should also need to work on getting the mu bit to be able to get to the green zone. The higher level mobs can have more mu to balance out or give a meaning to skilling up.

Fundamentally if EU wants to move out from being a niche players game to a more mass market one, they need to make the game more fun and less expensive as the average gamer cannot even come close to funding the game EU is as of now ( by funding here i mean both in terms of $'s and time). Currently they are providing employment to a few people ( some of who are permanent residents of the forum) and to be fair since there livelihood is being funded courtesy EU/MA, being a fanboy is the least they owe to EU/MA.
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Finally, someone (and this time someone well established) that says the very same thing I kept telling over and over these last few days, like, for example, here:

DoA said:
But I just think that people having net profit on TT are not healthy for the game so I think that it was about time for MA to change (not even fix, just change) that, so by being efficient you could just make your money last longer, not end up with a net profit (you should eventually be able to do that, but by interacting with other players, so by MU, not simply by shooting/playing).
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I find it totally normal that smart decisions should be rewarded and people playing smarter should get higher returns, while people playing more careless should get lower results, just that said results should be higher or lower, not hi and low, because if someone ends up losing too much, sooner or later, he will eventually stop the bleeding and quit for good.

Also, the only problem with people that have said 100%+ TT returns is not only the fact that they take money out of the system (money that must be paid by someone else), but also the volume of money they're taking out, since in most cases they're also playing for lots of hours (not wanting to give names again, but we all know people or at least avatars that are online 12, 18 or even 24 hours per day) and cycling a lot of PEDs per hour. So how many casual (playing dunno like 10, maybe 20 hours per week), average, low or mid level players (let's say level 20-30-40) should take heavy loses to support their profits?

So yeah, I really think that this Robin Hood update (as I like to call it) is the best thing that could have happened to the game. The people that were considering EU like a job and were playing it for a living, constantly draining money from the economy would probably quit since hopefully, that will no longer be possible, but I fail to see how this would hurt the game. The other people that were playing smart, but not seeing this as a job would probably see their results drop a bit, but they would still get a lot of value out of their bucks compared with any other players and they could eventually even break even or profit via markup. And, finally, the vast majority of people, that were losing a lot of money by subsidizing the profits of said ubers, will see their cost of playing (drastically) reduce which should hopefully increase retention.

As I already said a few times, I think we need more gamers and fewer investors... more people that are playing EU because they find it fun and they are OK with spending some money every month to finance their entertainment and less people that are playing EU because they (can) make money out of it.

Obviously... just my 2 cents...
 
DoA said:
Finally, someone (and this time someone well established) that says the very same thing I kept telling over and over these last few days, like, for example, here:



I find it totally normal that smart decisions should be rewarded and people playing smarter should get higher returns, while people playing more careless should get lower results, just that said results should be higher or lower, not hi and low, because if someone ends up losing too much, sooner or later, he will eventually stop the bleeding and quit for good.

Also, the only problem with people that have said 100%+ TT returns is not only the fact that they take money out of the system (money that must be paid by someone else), but also the volume of money they're taking out, since in most cases they're also playing for lots of hours (not wanting to give names again, but we all know people or at least avatars that are online 12, 18 or even 24 hours per day) and cycling a lot of PEDs per hour. So how many casual (playing dunno like 10, maybe 20 hours per week), average, low or mid level players (let's say level 20-30-40) should take heavy loses to support their profits?

So yeah, I really think that this Robin Hood update (as I like to call it) is the best thing that could have happened to the game. The people that were considering EU like a job and were playing it for a living, constantly draining money from the economy would probably quit since hopefully, that will no longer be possible, but I fail to see how this would hurt the game. The other people that were playing smart, but not seeing this as a job would probably see their results drop a bit, but they would still get a lot of value out of their bucks compared with any other players and they could eventually even break even or profit via markup. And, finally, the vast majority of people, that were losing a lot of money by subsidizing the profits of said ubers, will see their cost of playing (drastically) reduce which should hopefully increase retention.

As I already said a few times, I think we need more gamers and fewer investors... more people that are playing EU because they find it fun and they are OK with spending some money every month to finance their entertainment and less people that are playing EU because they (can) make money out of it.

Obviously... just my 2 cents...
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I completely agree with you on what it needs to be. I will wait before i consider it a Robin Hood Update. I am not convinced yet and without enough data, it would be too soon to consider it so.
 
DoA said:
As I already said a few times, I think we need more gamers and fewer investors... more people that are playing EU because they find it fun and they are OK with spending some money every month to finance their entertainment and less people that are playing EU because they (can) make money out of it.
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I agree with you also, but this has not been my experience so far. I am a regular depositor and I play for fun, I never expect to profit - but I still play smart and try to make good decisions to make my deposits last. For me, since the update, this game is now about 10% more expensive.
 
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