Smoking In Bars

Essi said:

I can

Though its hard to drink sometimes with friends staring with "are you really going to drink that?" -look in their face...

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So your friends don't drink beer? Or Guiness???? Either way, I would need new friends

Svetlana said:

So your friends don't drink beer? Or Guiness???? Either way, I would need new friends

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They drink lager or cider mostly. Im the butch of the gang - not!

Of course they drink anything but when they pay its lager or cider

(partly its due prices here... paying $6+ for guinness hurts)

Well, having to go out does suck.
Its not the same relaxing feeling when u have to get someone to watch your table, or liquids (if not allowed to bring outside) while u freeze your buns off. It does get cold up here in the winter

But whatever.
I cant do anything bout it, nor am I ranting bout it either, I adapt.

rstock said:

Well, having to go out does suck.
Its not the same relaxing feeling when u have to get someone to watch your table, or liquids (if not allowed to bring outside) while u freeze your buns off. It does get cold up here in the winter

But whatever.
I cant do anything bout it, nor am I ranting bout it either, I adapt.

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I think you just nailed it!
some rep for that one

Essi said:

They drink lager or cider mostly.

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Nothing like an ice cold Strongbow

DD

Smoking shouldn't be outlawed. Then driving cars should be outlawed too. But smoking in public places should be forbidden imho. Do smokers like inhaling car engine fumes? Same goes for non-smokers when it comes to smoke fumes...

I'd like to see smoking become less 'trendy' most of all. Almost noone starts smoking because they like it. It's all to be 'part of something'. And the only thing it really does is tear you down physically. But then again same goes for beer I guess and I sure am guilty of drinking that. *slap for hyprocrisy*

As for the government telling you what's healthy for you... Give me a break. As if the majority of the people hava any clue what's healthy for them or not. One smart marketing move can change the view of a whole bunch of people again and there we go... vitamin supplements a volonté . If you can decide it for yourself good for you (and congrats for passing medical school) but saying the government should leave us alone is naive, at least.

Leafren said:

Smoking shouldn't be outlawed. Then driving cars should be outlawed too. But smoking in public places should be forbidden imho. Do smokers like inhaling car engine fumes? Same goes for non-smokers when it comes to smoke fumes...

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Your example doesn't make sense. I could word it this way too...

Driving cars shouldn't be outlawed. Then smoking should be outlawed too. But driving cars in public places should be forbidden imho. Do car drivers like inhaling cigarette smoke? Same goes for non drivers when it comes to car fumes...

Leafren said:

As for the government telling you what's healthy for you... Give me a break. As if the majority of the people hava any clue what's healthy for them or not.

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Firstly, I am not against the government telling you what is and is not healthy. Quite the contrary, I think it is their job to inform us so we can make our own informed descisions. That is the point I am argueing. ME and YOU making the descision to smoke, be around a smoker or work at a place that allows smoking. Let the people choose. Do not let the government mandate.

Secondly, I think most everyone knows that eating McDonalds is bad and broccoli is good. Smoking is bad, not smoking is good. If they do not then the government needs to do a better job informing so we can make good descisions.

DD

Ok closed public spaces then, as in buildings. Where the smoke can't diffuse into the air so it's not such unpleasent to breath.

If I understand it right you say governments shouldn't be enforcing things but rather give advice so we can make our own decisions? Yeah the governments job is to inform but definatly to mandate too. This of course applies to everything. Everyone knows driving too fast is dangerous, so the government did a good job informing us. In this logic we wouldn't need laws forbidding us to drive too fast because everyone knows it's not good. In fact we wouldn't need laws at all since they are all mandatory and most people really do know they are doing something wrong when breaking the law anyways, so lack of information can't be an excuse. (Imagine that, all the gay people getting married and there can be made no laws against it, fear! jk) You really think that without laws people wouldn't drive too fast? Or would pay their taxes in time? Lawlessness leads to total chaos I'm convinced. No matter how good the people are informed.


As for smoking I think my arguments are still valid. First off not everyone listens to an advice coming from the government, or has the intellect to decide for themselves whether or not to start smoking (I doubt a 13 year old kid can objectively decide whether to keep away from smoking and not be part of the cool group or start smoking with all the known risks... ). Secondly, if at any time, a persons actions causes health risks to the persons around him those actions should be forbidden. People just don't tend to take the government's advice very seriously, this also brings me to your last point. If the government had to inform you on all health risks you are exposed to every day you could watch tv 24/7 and still not know everything. That's why they mandate and make laws, they know what's better for you and thus enforce it.

I wrote this kinda fast before I went to bed I hope it makes a bit of sense Or that at least my view on these matters is clear.

Skam said:

Shade, you can just post one long reply instead of 8 individual replies.

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I'll keep you happy then and do as you suggest.

Skam said:

If you have a no-smoking friend...
Why on earth does it seem sometimes that the smokers feel like Im attacking them...

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Did you happen to notice where I said that I didn't smoke? The ban on smoking doesn't affect me personally, but I take a stand on principle.

our little city of Alta didnt HAVE a non-smoking bar.

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Then maybe someone should have tried opening one!

Essi said:

Tobacco and alcohol isnt illegal.

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It is for those under a certain age. Wasn't that a part of the complaint?

Essi said:

I dont feel like commenting everything you said as I have written most of the things I would say already. Clearly you want drugs legalized like many others.

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So you just dismiss my position and don't bother to address my arguments?

Essi said:

I sincerely hope none of you need to live up your own words and ideology in a situation where your own kid dies on drugs or gets killed by addict... because I dont want to think you could.

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Yep, that's what you did.

So, you don't think that drug-related crime would decrease if drugs were legalized? Do you disagree that most drug-related crime is a result of disputes between dealers/gangs or from people committing crimes to pay for their drug habit? Do you disagree that if drugs were made legal they would cost less?

Essi said:

Still all smokers are pretty much attacking everyone who even slightly understand these smoke banning laws or health causes.

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Gee, when did I start smoking? How come nobody told me?

Svetlana said:

I don't see the problem guys....
Some bars can be smoking, some non-smoking...
keeps every1 happy

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Not the people who like to control other's lives, or the people who don't think that people should take responsibility for their choices.

Leafren said:

Yeah the governments job is to inform but definatly to mandate too. This of course applies to everything.

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Recommended reading: 1984 by George Orwell.


For the record:

I do not smoke. I never have and I never will.

I do not use drugs such as marijuana, cocaine, heroin, etc. Never have, never will.

I find it amazing how people scream for the government to help take care of them, while not bothering to do anything to take care of themselves.

You want a non-smoking bar? Open one! If enough people want one, you'll probably make a lot of money. That's sure what happened to the non-smoking bar here. But if only a few people want one, you won't make money. So, I guess that means that those few people now have the right to dictate to the many who want to permit smoking in bars?

It's called "tyranny of the minority".

It was smoking. Now it's cell phones and fast food. Tomorrow, who knows?

All in the name of "public safety."

Here's something to ponder: Freedom or safety. Choose one.

For me, I choose freedom.

Well seeing how addictive drugs are and what they do to people I wouldnt say it should be legalized. It would be more used for sure. Not everyone is too bright or really listen to "its bad for you" before they are really stuck with a big problem they cant handle. Then it gets to be the goverment and enviorment's problem aswell.
Smoking is offcourse not as bad as drugs, just so thats clear. I dont mind people doing whatever they do as long as they dont bother others with it, really. But if youve seen people on amfetamin or heroin or so on you know its not much needed for them to pop. They are not in control then, the drug is.

Shade when you say "Freedom or Safety" how far will you go with that? All the way? You would think its totally fine for people to do like they want?
...Just wondering, are you pro anarchy?
But theres one opinion I have that I want to make really clear:
There cant be total freedom for everyone. Someone hurts from your freedom.

Is it freedom to be scared to go out on the citystreet because drugs are legalized and people get violent from it?

This thread has kinda been blown out of propotions and there are alot of strong opinions here.

I dont care if anyone smokes or not I just dont want it in MY FACE, mmkay?

Skam said:

Smoking is offcourse not as bad as drugs, just so thats clear.

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I dunno about that, it is up to what you consider bad. I was addicted to Crystal Meth, did Acid at least once a week, Smoked pot daily and ingested anything else I could. I kicked all of those habits and have no desire for them even if they are laid in front of me for free. But, offer me a cigarette and I cannot resist. You tell me which is worse...

As for the argument ppl don't want smoke "forced" on them. You don't HAVE to go to the bar. You don't HAVE to be around smokers. However, you are saying that I HAVE to not smoke at a bar. So, essentially your "rights" are more important than "mine".

DD

Devil Doll said:

I dunno about that, it is up to what you consider bad. I was addicted to Crystal Meth, did Acid at least once a week, Smoked pot daily and ingested anything else I could. I kicked all of those habits and have no desire for them even if they are laid in front of me for free. But, offer me a cigarette and I cannot resist. You tell me which is worse...

As for the argument ppl don't want smoke "forced" on them. You don't HAVE to go to the bar. You don't HAVE to be around smokers. However, you are saying that I HAVE to not smoke at a bar. So, essentially your "rights" are more important than "mine".

DD

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When I ment bad I ment what drugs do to you, instead of what cigarettes does as well as the addiction.

YOU dont have to go to a bar either. Then you wont be husshed outside when you have to smoke.
Your basicly saying your right to smoke is more important then non-smokers for having a fun saturday night out.
If I ever see you in a bar Ill practice my right to spit at you

Leafren said:

Secondly, if at any time, a persons actions causes health risks to the persons around him those actions should be forbidden.

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Skateboarding - out
Coming to work sick - out
Driving a car - out
Contact sports - out

I think you are saying that I ought not to be able to smoke in a bar because you may be there...

I am saying if you don't want to be around smoke don't go to a smoking bar.

Your option,my "right" (if we want to call it that) is infringed upon. Along with the bar owners right to run his establishment the way he wants.

My option. Noone is making you do something. No rights infringed upon...

DD

Skam said:

When I ment bad I ment what drugs do to you, instead of what cigarettes does as well as the addiction.

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Without looking it up I would guess that many many more ppl are killed by cigarettes than drugs each year.

Skam said:

Your basicly saying your right to smoke is more important then non-smokers for having a fun saturday night out.

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I am saying that more "rights" are infringed upon in your scenario. My "right" to smoke. The bartenders "right" to run his place the way he wants.

Under my scenario everyone makes a choice.

Skam said:

If I ever see you in a bar Ill practice my right to spit at you

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Somehow I doubt that would happen. I am too nice for such things

DD

As for the argument ppl don't want smoke "forced" on them. You don't HAVE to go to the bar. You don't HAVE to be around smokers. However, you are saying that I HAVE to not smoke at a bar. So, essentially your "rights" are more important than "mine".

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This is the world upside down. Smokers are the ones causing inconvenience.

Recommended reading: 1984 by George Orwell.

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I haven't read it, I'm not really into reading fiction... That aside if I'm not mistaken this book is about the government controlling your daily life, 'big brother is watching you' way, right?

I'm not promoting total control by the government, but when people's health is at risk, they should be protected. It's not as easy as 'just don't go into a bar then'. For instance: what if a pregnant lady, or a person with asthma, happens to be in the lower regions of society, not being able to make enough money to buy food for their family finally finds a job, at a bar... It's not like they can 'choose not to go'. They will have to. Who's rights are more important then? Or what about the children of the barkeeper, they will most likely go to the bar (even just at daytime to help dad clean the place), who's rights are more important then when they are inhaling some free cancer? Or what about teh delivery people? Who role all the barrels of beer inside. Or the taxi drivers?

Choosing and freedom are very relative. In fact no one is even close to being free. I choose safety.

Shade said:

So you just dismiss my position and don't bother to address my arguments?

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I have wrote about them earlier. Read earlier posts.

So, you don't think that drug-related crime would decrease if drugs were legalized?

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No.

Do you disagree that most drug-related crime is a result of disputes between dealers/gangs or from people committing crimes to pay for their drug habit? Do you disagree that if drugs were made legal they would cost less?

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I think majority (in number or significance to common ppl) of those crimes are made by drug addicts against commoners. It really doenst matter much for normal citizens if two dealers kill each other at discrete parking lot.

I dont it matters at all if drugs would cost much or not.
- Dont you agree that many drugs are already cheaper than getting same state with alcohol?
- Dont you agree that even modest income is enough to buy drugs?

Drugs dont take all your money because they would be so damn expensive. They take your money because they take your ability to get money or decide when and where you buy drugs and how much you use them.

Skateboarding - out
Coming to work sick - out
Driving a car - out
Contact sports - out

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Yes I know, that's why I limited the smoking thing to inside buildings. And that's what I meant with my first sentence back then.

My option. Noone is making you do something. No rights infringed upon...

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You are infringing my right to smoke clean air at whatever public place I go.

Devil Doll said:

But, offer me a cigarette and I cannot resist. You tell me which is worse...

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I searched net for a while but I simply couldnt find the diagram that was in Finnish science magazine.

First of all there is two kinds of addictions: physical and mental. Physical addiction comes from body adapting and starting to need that substance. Mental addiction is just like it says mental (however mental thing can cause physical effects too).

When considering legality also health causes are taken into account (as well as history/cultury factors).

Nicotine is mentally more addictive than many strong drugs.

Devil Doll said:

Without looking it up I would guess that many many more ppl are killed by cigarettes than drugs each year.

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Arghh not health-hazard... I ment what they do to you mentally. How you become when taking them. People on anything harder then weed mostly scare the shit out of me.

Devil Doll said:

Somehow I doubt that would happen. I am too nice for such things

DD

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Will you be nice enuff to not smoke in my face then?

Skam said:

Arghh not health-hazard... I ment what they do to you mentally. How you become when taking them. People on anything harder then weed mostly scare the shit out of me.

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I once talked with a guy who produced own psychedelic mushrooms... I was kind of scared to find out that we saw really same kind of lucid dreams...

Dont contribute to feeling sane...

Leafren said:

First off not everyone listens to an advice coming from the government, or has the intellect to decide for themselves whether or not to start smoking (I doubt a 13 year old kid can objectively decide whether to keep away from smoking and not be part of the cool group or start smoking with all the known risks... ).
That's why they mandate and make laws, they know what's better for you and thus enforce it.

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Do you think making laws that forbid smoking will stop people from beginning to smoke? And stop the ones smoking already?

Camilla- said:

Do you think making laws that forbid smoking will stop people from beginning to smoke? And stop the ones smoking already?

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Actually in Finland when new law about smoking at working places came it reduced number of smoking ppl by 5%. Meaning that quite many stopped smoking totally.

Smoking at working places dropped by 50% or so (apparently measured by number of cigarrettes or hours spend).

I actually dont know what the new law was back then...

Camilla- said:

Do you think making laws that forbid smoking will stop people from beginning to smoke? And stop the ones smoking already?

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Of course it will, when something is forbidden people don't do it as easily. It's trivial not everyone will stop smoking or don't start with it. I think after some generations it will make a big difference. A law forbidding smoking as a whole isn't needed imho by the way.

Smoking is cool. And you know it!

Or.. how about this:
Stop breathing my air....
Stop poluting my air with your car when you drive by my house...
Stop everything that affects me...

Then Ill stop smoking near you...

Give me back the 3 min i spent reading that.. !!!
Life sucks... get over it..

Starfinder said:

Stop breathing my air....
Stop poluting my air with your car when you drive by my house...

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Since when smokers own the air?

Starfinder said:

Smoking is cool. And you know it!

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Smoking isnt cool.
Lots of people thought it was cool when they started, but I doubt most people feel "cool" while smoking on the 50'th year of their life, its an addiction.
I started smoking cigars, Ritmeester Moods, cos they tasted very good, not because it was so damn cool ,and I dinnt start when I was 14 or 15, I was 21. Then I started smoking rollingtobacco, cos its cheaper than cigars.

Smoking cause some really nasty things to your body, not deniable.

but some freedom of choice in both directions would be nice, without being shut out of public places.

Skam said:

Will you be nice enuff to not smoke in my face then?

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Of course

DD

Essi said:

Since when smokers own the air?

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It could be argued. Since when do non smokers own the air inside of a building that is not even owned by them?

DD

We dont need freakin anti smoking lobbyists,I trust every man/woman to do what ever he/she feels like doing. If you want to smoke,do it.Just dont blow the smoke in someones face