Damage per PEC is irrelevant

Damage per PEC is irrelevant | Hidden item stats

First of all, the numbers and figures used in this post are all fictive examples, however the fact is not.

Having said that I will jump straight to the topic. All published weapon charts and FAP charts (item charts in general) have the stat “damage per PEC” or “heal per PEC” specified. This sure is interesting theoretical figures but they are totally and completely irrelevant when it comes to real use. So go ahead and argue what weapon that has 4.30 damage per PEC and what weapon that has 4.40 damage per PEC, because it all doesn’t matter.

So why do I say this? Well obviously as we all know, nobody has skills to deliver 100% damage all the time no matter what weapon that is used. So logically you cannot deliver 4.30 damage per PEC or whatever stats the weapon is listed to have.

But, and there’s a big but… There has been proven to be more factors taking part in determining what damage you can deliver with a weapon, or how much you can heal with a FAP. From tests and feedback we can now be pretty sure that all items has hidden characteristics that is not displayed (in most cases) in the description section of the item. Some of these characteristics maybe even based on skill. To bring up a few examples we can take a look at the handgun: Adjusted Omegaton M2722. This handgun is known to stall or hang, resulting it in every now and then skipping a shot or two. But for this specific weapon this flaw is already noticed in the description page of the gun.

Characteristics like this can also be other things that affect the items performance. Like damage delivered, or maximum and minimum heal with a FAP and so on. I know this from my own experience while extensively testing different weapons and FAP’s. I will paint up the scenario, but to avoid creating rumours I will not specify what weapons I have used. Also remember that the figures are fictive since they do not apply to everyone because of the skill factor. The figures should be somewhat proportional though.

Scenario 1: BLP rifle. I deliver in average 53% of full damage with rifle “A” over an extensive period of time and ammunition used. Whilst I deliver 59% of full damage with rifle “B” over the same amount of time and ammunition.

Next scenario only applies if you do not have enough skill to heal with full capacity of the FAP every time.

Scenario 2: Good crafted FAP vs. Good looted FAP. I heal in average 87% of full capacity with “good crafted FAP”. Whilst I heal 93% of full capacity with “good looted fap”. Note that this does not go for Adjusted, Improved or Modified FAP.

So what do I want to have said with this? It’s simple, the sum of all this is that weapon “A” might be listed to have higher damage per PEC then weapon “B” has, but weapon “B” might just as well be more economic in real use then weapon “A” is. And all of this because of these hidden characteristics of each item, making it better or worse then another. And yes, the same thing goes for the FAP part.

Conspiracy theory? Go ahead and try me.

I have to agree with this, I've also ran different tests regarding this theory.
Not that many, but I measured my avg damage on a specific weapon by typing up the different damages I made. I came up with 72% average damage, while I did around 66% average damage with another weapon in the same series.

I did however not count the misses in these tests, but I guess I'll do another one and count the misses aswell.

Anyway, it seems like some weapons have a cap on their economy/avg damage. Two friends of mine, ran a test regarding a specific weapon. And no, I won't mention any names or the name of the weapon.

Persons A's primary skill was 3902 while Person B's primary skill was at 1952. None of them had bought any skills.

Person A made an average damage of 64.94%
Person B made an average damage of 64.97%

Recoda said:

Anyway, it seems like some weapons have a cap on their economy/avg damage. Two friends of mine, ran a test regarding a specific weapon. And no, I won't mention any names or the name of the weapon.

Persons A's primary skill was 3902 while Person B's primary skill was at 1952. None of them had bought any skills.

Person A made an average damage of 64.94%
Person B made an average damage of 64.97%

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Yes... I also know some1 who claims something similar. I do believe that there are some skill caps that we are unaware of, but I suppose we will not know for certain until enough evidence surfaces.

Interesting post e-lite. Your argument seems well thought up, and I cannot think of a good rebuttal against it

That's the reason I don't use amps in hunts It just doesn't work out for me don't care what charts say.

I agree e-lite dmg/pec is overrated, but it's a good indication nontheless, high dmg/pec weapons are often simply more economical to use. ie. I'm pretty sure you're better of with an axe then with a 2dmg/pec knife, but on the other hand when you have to compare a 3,85dmg/pec and a 4dmg/pec gun I wouldn't be so sure.

Another example: you can have a 300 dmg rifle with 6 dmg/pec efficiency and I'm sure you'll do much worse then with a imp mk2 economy wise... The more max dmg the higher the skills you need.

My view is dmg/pec is a good indicator for low skilled ppl, and a bigger (but not the only) factor for high skilled people.

Leafren said:

The more max dmg the higher the skills you need.

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I actually belive this part to be a myth, I have never heard anyone tell me they have actually tested this, ppl just seem to take it for granted. I havnt done enought testing to prove anything, just tried it out a bit of curiosity.. and it seemed like the avreage dam was the same with both guns used, i know one was a jester.. the other was a starkhov of some sort

Faps are generally easier to use the better they are. Even with my low first aid skills I always healed full with imp and mod fap, with lesser faps I sometimes didn't and generally you get higher avg % of max heal the more the fap heals (this is all documented in other threads about fap intervals and stuff so don't really have to go any further into it).
I don't know if they use a similar system for guns, but since no conclusive tests have been made I most definately wouldn't go as far as to say dmg/pec is irrelevant. The better economy gun may just as well give you a better % of max as the worse gun. Would be nice if there was an easier way to get a good reading of average damage than to write down thousands of shots, it's much too time consuming to get correct readings.

Roth said:

I actually belive this part to be a myth, I have never heard anyone tell me they have actually tested this, ppl just seem to take it for granted. I havnt done enought testing to prove anything, just tried it out a bit of curiosity.. and it seemed like the avreage dam was the same with both guns used, i know one was a jester.. the other was a starkhov of some sort

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I know minimum damage is a lot less (percentage wise) on higher max damage guns for noobs. I think I have about the same minimum % with a jester as imk2 but my brother's noob managed to do 8 dmg as lowest with imk2 when he just started. Not sure about average but it seems likely that it's about the same. THat it's extremely low right at the beginning and then not so much of a difference later

Of course the above reflected how I feel about the subject or how it 'seems' to be for me. I never wanted to insinuate I hold the truth or something like that

Leafren said:

Of course the above reflected how I feel about the subject or how it 'seems' to be for me. I never wanted to insinuate I hold the truth or something like that

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yeah, me neither *wink wink*

And thanks ya'll for the possitive feedback.

mjukis said:

Would be nice if there was an easier way to get a good reading of average damage than to write down thousands of shots, it's much too time consuming to get correct readings.

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Thinking about that... wasn't someone creating a program that would grab screenshots and change the data into a text or something like that?

To add to e-lite's statements. I also know that I get different loot results for different weopons. Therefore, dam/pec is irrelevant, once again.

DD

so you're saying that you consistantly get as good returns with worse guns because your loot is higher? Or just that it differs from gun to gun regardless of economy?

I am saying that in some cases I get better returns with a weopon of lesser economy or dam/pec.

DD

Devil Doll said:

I am saying that in some cases I get better returns with a weopon of lesser economy or dam/pec.

DD

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which leads to the theory that certain weapons work particularly well with certain mobs, regardless of the weapons actual stats

A soc mate of mine just put it this way... the new system is a bit like figuring out how to pick a lock... you need just the right tools and the right combination for it to work.

Devil Doll said:

I am saying that in some cases I get better returns with a weopon of lesser economy or dam/pec.

DD

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and I'm sure in just as many cases it's the opposite? (=
I've tried to do tests like that but come to the conclusion that the game is much too random. Hunting the same mobs at the same place with the same gun yields a very different income from hour to hour day to day, week to week and VU to VU. So I've given up the idea of trying to compare average loots at different times of day, using different equipment etc.

Svetlana said:

the new system is a bit like figuring out how to pick a lock... you need just the right tools and the right combination for it to work.

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actually it's more like using a sledge hammer to break in
The bigger the gun the faster the skills.

Devil Doll said:

To add to e-lite's statements. I also know that I get different loot results for different weopons. Therefore, dam/pec is irrelevant, once again.

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Are you sure you are able to get a big enough sample to accurately make this statement?

I doubt this claim very much.

Your misguided note about jamming pistols and Recoda's anecdotal evidence doesn't exactly lend any credence to this hypothesis. I'm not saying I disagree with you, I'm just saying that you're making bold claims without any kind of real evidence, or assurances that you have observed the scientific method.

Do items have a built in (yet hidden) skill modification? It's very possible many items do. Why can any avatar full heal with an impfap before they can full heal with a fap-5? Something is obviously different about how the two items work.

Is damage per PEC irrelevant? No way. I have found that with a large enough sampling the damage/pec numbers line up across almost all weapons, with some notable exceptions.

Recoda said:

Thinking about that... wasn't someone creating a program that would grab screenshots and change the data into a text or something like that?

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I already have one, that I have been using for over two years. I though you knew. I'll send it to ya when I find it on my harddrive... Or I'll just have to program a new one.

Truantduck/Mjukis -

To expand upon my statement. I have hunted for months in the same area at the same times with one kit. Then I switched to a higher decaying, less efficient, and under powered kit. It took much longer to kill the mobs and my overall decay (including FAP and Armor) was higher but I consistantly profited. Nearly every single hunt.

My point here is that everyone puts such emphasis on dam/pec as being the true test of a weopon. I beleive however, that you can consistantly profit with nearly any weopon if you use the right approach and have enough funds available to implore certain stratagies.

This has always worked for me when I stick to it. And sticking to it is the key. It is just so goddamn booring.

DD

About the jamming pistol, in this case the adjusted 2722, it says so even in the decription of the gun. Go ahead, try one, you'll see that it every now and then skipps a shot.

All of my guns, and faps occationally skip shots, particularly after this last VU. I think it's a bug, or due to lag. but YMMV

Extent said:

All of my guns, and faps occationally skip shots, particularly after this last VU. I think it's a bug, or due to lag. but YMMV

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me too. I get it with all of my weapons and faps at least once every 20 or so clicks

also, after a while of real fast klicking, (for example maddox 4) the mouse button will stop reacting for a few seconds... NOT good if ur fighting a argo scavenger in rascal with hardly evade

okay okay. they topic line "damage per pec is irrelevant" is obviously to prove a point, don't take the words too hard. I use it as a guide too, but it doesnt stand for my final decition.

I dont usually mind whats dmg/pec, dmg/sec is that what i first look
Also decay, example i dont like really much repairing gun for 50 ped after 10k ammo skilling trip. Usually i test gun, if i like i geep if i dont i sell it.

Devil Doll said:

To expand upon my statement. I have hunted for months in the same area at the same times with one kit. Then I switched to a higher decaying, less efficient, and under powered kit. It took much longer to kill the mobs and my overall decay (including FAP and Armor) was higher but I consistantly profited. Nearly every single hunt.

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so you say loot are linked to weapon or to decay ?
is loot are better when decay is highter ?
since all new item decay more and more , soon evryone will profit then ?

e-lite said:

okay okay. they topic line "damage per pec is irrelevant" is obviously to prove a point, don't take the words too hard. I use it as a guide too, but it doesnt stand for my final decition.

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I like this point of view.... reminds me of the movie "Pirates of the Caribbean" when they talk about the pirate rules, which are rather more like "guidelines" as they say

All in all, not one of us knows for certain. None of us possesses the secrets
It is information like this that is important for the community to see, so that we can start piecing together the puzzle so to speak

Etopia said:

so you say loot are linked to weapon or to decay ?
is loot are better when decay is highter ?
since all new item decay more and more , soon evryone will profit then ?

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I don't pretend to know what it is linked to. I beleive it is various factors. Maybe weopon choice, decay, repairs, deposits, beast hunted, time of day, etc etc etc...

What I am saying is that I have consistantly looted better with a weopon with inferior dam/pec. Therefore, as the title says of this thread, I beleive too that Damage to Pec is Irrelevant.

DD

dammage pr pec irelevant hmmm i hardly think so but i do feel that the part about some weapons being easyer to master is correct thou take feks. maddox4 with dante which is very powerfull and decent dam/pec that one is very very hard to master compared to a less powerfull pistol so im kinda inclined to the theory that u need certain ranks to master certain weapons and also my testing however small seems to indicate that skills does matter sofar it looks like 0.5% pr professional rank which might not seems much but sure is on the long run

about faps before this recent VU we had the fap/heal system totaly pinned down and totaly basic it was your lowest fap5 heal multiplied with a minimum and maximum value on each fap like x7 to x12 so that if your minimum heal with a fap5 was 4,2 u would heal minimum 7x4,2 and maximum 12x4,2 this was often cappep by the fap at feks. 42 max heal this system seems to have been changed now giving it a random factor also but the ~min and ~max still apply

to see a small indication if you should use the weapon you are currently using try keeping note of your minimum dammage and maximum dammage if your minimum is lower than 25% of max and u cant do maximum within a reasonable number of shots (like a 2-400 peds hunt) you should probably look to using a smaller weapon also note that most testing indicates that adj imp and mod weapons do a better average so in reality a adj 2722 can be a better choise than a 2875


none of this is absolute truths just theory and indications