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0% Loot Return

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Trina Xenophage said:
I guess ALL of the posts I made over the years stating EU is a ZERO sum system just flew right over everyones heads...
Unless you are finding or getting things that cover that 10% decay to keep you going you cant play for free for long.
And its not profit until the money you put in is less then the money you tookout AND have back in your hands or bank account is ALL loss until that time.
Click to expand...

a Zero Sum system doesn't mean what you think it means. EU would be zero sum if MA didn't take anything from decay average returns would be 100% (in the way the forum talks about returns), and most of the people that lose a lot right now would continue to lose a lot.
 
Did anyone really think that when we say "90% average return" that it was to mean no matter how long you play for, you should always have 90%? Or that your account balance should always be 90% of what you put in? I don't think anyone is saying that at all. So no pink elephant here. Just confusion by some people on how math works.

Let's illustrate:

Code: 
[TABLE="width: 407"]
[TR]
[TD]Cycle[/TD]
[TD]Ped Spent[/TD]
[TD]Ped Back[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Total Spent[/TD]
[TD]Total Back[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1000.00[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]900.00[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1000.00[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]900.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]900.00[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]810.00[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1900.00[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1710.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]810.00[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]729.00[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2710.00[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2439.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]729.00[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]656.10[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3439.00[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3095.10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]656.10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]590.49[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4095.10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3685.59[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]590.49[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]531.44[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4685.59[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4217.03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]531.44[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]478.30[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5217.03[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4695.33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]478.30[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]430.47[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5695.33[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5125.80[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]430.47[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]387.42[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6125.80[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5513.22[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]387.42[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]348.68[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6513.22[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5861.89[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]11[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]348.68[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]313.81[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6861.89[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6175.70[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]313.81[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]282.43[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7175.70[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6458.13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]282.43[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]254.19[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7458.13[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6712.32[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]14[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]254.19[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]228.77[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7712.32[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6941.09[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]228.77[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]205.89[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7941.09[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7146.98[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]205.89[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]185.30[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8146.98[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7332.28[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]17[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]185.30[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]166.77[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8332.28[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7499.05[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]18[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]166.77[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]150.09[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8499.05[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7649.15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]19[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]150.09[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]135.09[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8649.15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7784.23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]20[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]135.09[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]121.58[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8784.23[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7905.81[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]21[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]121.58[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]109.42[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8905.81[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8015.23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]22[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]109.42[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]98.48[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9015.23[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8113.71[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]23[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]98.48[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]88.63[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9113.71[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8202.34[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]88.63[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]79.77[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9202.34[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8282.10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]25[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]79.77[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]71.79[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9282.10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8353.89[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]26[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]71.79[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]64.61[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9353.89[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8418.50[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]27[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]64.61[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]58.15[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9418.50[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8476.65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]28[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]58.15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.33[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9476.65[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8528.99[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]29[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.33[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]47.10[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9528.99[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8576.09[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]30[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]47.10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]42.39[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9576.09[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8618.48[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]31[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]42.39[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]38.15[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9618.48[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8656.63[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]32[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]38.15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34.34[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9656.63[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8690.97[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]33[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34.34[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30.90[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9690.97[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8721.87[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]34[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30.90[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.81[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9721.87[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8749.68[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]35[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.81[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.03[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9749.68[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8774.72[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]36[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.03[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]22.53[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9774.72[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8797.24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]37[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]22.53[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]20.28[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9797.24[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8817.52[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]38[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]20.28[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18.25[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9817.52[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8835.77[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]39[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18.25[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16.42[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9835.77[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8852.19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]40[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16.42[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14.78[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9852.19[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8866.97[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]41[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14.78[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13.30[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9866.97[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8880.27[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]42[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13.30[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11.97[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9880.27[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8892.25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]43[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11.97[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10.78[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9892.25[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8903.02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]44[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10.78[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9.70[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9903.02[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8912.72[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]45[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9.70[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8.73[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9912.72[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8921.45[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]46[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8.73[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.86[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9921.45[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8929.30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]47[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.86[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.07[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9929.30[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8936.37[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]48[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.07[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6.36[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9936.37[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8942.74[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]49[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6.36[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.73[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9942.74[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8948.46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]50[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.73[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.15[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9948.46[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8953.62[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

So after 50 runs of reusing the original 1000 PED we started with, we are left with 5.15 PED. Does this mean we have a 0.515% return?

No.

Because we would have spent in total 9948.46 PED and gotten back 8953.62 PED in total. 8953.62/9948.46 = 90%

The only way your balance can ever be more than what you put in is if you loot greater than a 90% average return over time OR you are able to sell what you loot at markup. If you figure a 90% average return, then your average markup needs to be >111% to profit.
 
Last edited:
Let me get this straight. 1 + 1 = 3? :laugh:
 
DoubleWolf said:
Did anyone really think that when we say "90% average return" that it was to mean no matter how long you play for, you should always have 90%? Or that your account balance should always be 90% of what you put in? I don't think anyone is saying that at all. So no pink elephant here. Just confusion by some people on how math works.

Let's illustrate:

Code: 
[TABLE="width: 407"]
[TR]
[TD]Cycle
[/TD]
[TD]Ped Spent
[/TD]
[TD]Ped Back
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Total Spent
[/TD]
[TD]Total Back
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1000.00
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]900.00
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1000.00
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]900.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]900.00
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]810.00
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1900.00
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1710.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]810.00
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]729.00
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2710.00
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2439.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]4
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]729.00
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]656.10
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3439.00
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3095.10
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]656.10
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]590.49
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4095.10
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3685.59
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]590.49
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]531.44
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4685.59
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4217.03
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]7
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]531.44
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]478.30
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5217.03
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4695.33
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]478.30
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]430.47
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5695.33
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5125.80
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]430.47
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]387.42
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6125.80
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5513.22
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]10
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]387.42
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]348.68
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6513.22
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5861.89
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]11
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]348.68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]313.81
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6861.89
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6175.70
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]12
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]313.81
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]282.43
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7175.70
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6458.13
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]13
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]282.43
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]254.19
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7458.13
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6712.32
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]14
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]254.19
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]228.77
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7712.32
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6941.09
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]15
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]228.77
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]205.89
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7941.09
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7146.98
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]16
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]205.89
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]185.30
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8146.98
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7332.28
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]17
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]185.30
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]166.77
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8332.28
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7499.05
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]18
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]166.77
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]150.09
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8499.05
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7649.15
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]19
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]150.09
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]135.09
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8649.15
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7784.23
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]20
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]135.09
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]121.58
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8784.23
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7905.81
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]21
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]121.58
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]109.42
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8905.81
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8015.23
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]22
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]109.42
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]98.48
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9015.23
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8113.71
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]23
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]98.48
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]88.63
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9113.71
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8202.34
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]24
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]88.63
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]79.77
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9202.34
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8282.10
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]25
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]79.77
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]71.79
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9282.10
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8353.89
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]26
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]71.79
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]64.61
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9353.89
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8418.50
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]27
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]64.61
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]58.15
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9418.50
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8476.65
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]28
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]58.15
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.33
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9476.65
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8528.99
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]29
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.33
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]47.10
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9528.99
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8576.09
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]30
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]47.10
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]42.39
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9576.09
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8618.48
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]31
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]42.39
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]38.15
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9618.48
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8656.63
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]32
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]38.15
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34.34
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9656.63
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8690.97
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]33
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34.34
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30.90
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9690.97
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8721.87
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]34
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30.90
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.81
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9721.87
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8749.68
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]35
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.81
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.03
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9749.68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8774.72
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]36
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.03
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]22.53
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9774.72
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8797.24
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]37
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]22.53
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]20.28
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9797.24
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8817.52
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]38
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]20.28
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18.25
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9817.52
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8835.77
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]39
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18.25
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16.42
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9835.77
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8852.19
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]40
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16.42
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14.78
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9852.19
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8866.97
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]41
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14.78
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13.30
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9866.97
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8880.27
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]42
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13.30
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11.97
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9880.27
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8892.25
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]43
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11.97
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10.78
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9892.25
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8903.02
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]44
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10.78
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9.70
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9903.02
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8912.72
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]45
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9.70
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8.73
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9912.72
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8921.45
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]46
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8.73
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.86
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9921.45
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8929.30
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]47
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.86
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.07
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9929.30
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8936.37
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]48
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.07
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6.36
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9936.37
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8942.74
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]49
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6.36
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.73
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9942.74
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8948.46
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]50
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.73
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.15
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9948.46
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8953.62
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

So after 50 runs of reusing the original 1000 PED we started with, we are left with 5.15 PED. Does this mean we have a 0.515% return?

No.

Because we would have spent in total 9948.46 PED and gotten back 8953.62 PED in total. 8953.62/9948.46 = 90%

The only way your balance can ever be more than what you put in is if you loot greater than a 90% average return over time OR you are able to sell what you loot at markup. If you figure a 90% average return, then your average markup needs to be >111% to profit.
Click to expand...

You're standing there with 5 peds in your pocket. Is 5 ped out of 1000 ped 90% ? Naa. The average return over those trips was 90%, but the total return is 0.5%.
 
e-lite said:
You're standing there with 5 peds in your pocket. Is 5 ped out of 1000 ped 90% ? Naa. The average return over those trips was 90%, but the total return is 0.5%.
Click to expand...
You do realize that if it were 900 PED, Entropia Universe would, in fact, not have an RCE, and would be a one-time fee game, right?
 
RobBuona said:
You do realize that if it were 900 PED, Entropia Universe would, in fact, not have an RCE, and would be a one-time fee game, right?
Click to expand...

Yeah, sure. :dunno:
 
e-lite said:
0% Loot Return
Click to expand...

Sounds about right...

e-lite said:
90% return per hunt over XX time and cycled ammo. Let’s say this is true. So you decide that you will make only one last cash deposit into EU ever, just a one-time chunk of lets say 1000 ped (Amount not so important, just making a point). You go all in and spend the full amount on a hunt and get 900 ped (90%) in return (Only taking TT value in consideration). You cycle this 900 ped and next time you’re back with 810 ped TT, next time 729 and the next 656… Well, and so on, you get where I am going with this. So unless you keep depositing cash into EU, wouldn’t it really be 0% return?
Click to expand...

MA doesn't want you to play on those 1000 PEDs forever...

However, you did not take markup into consideration (which basically only means that someone else has to pay the bill (read: do the desposit for you) - but well, this is nothing really new now, is it? Simple math, and we've always known that MA can't pay out 100% or above)

e-lite said:
You're standing there with 5 peds in your pocket. Is 5 ped out of 1000 ped 90% ? Naa. The average return over those trips was 90%, but the total return is 0.5%.
Click to expand...

C'mon, don't tell me that it took you so long to realize that...

What did you guys do while you had math in school? Sleep?
 
e-lite said:
You're standing there with 5 peds in your pocket. Is 5 ped out of 1000 ped 90% ? Naa. The average return over those trips was 90%, but the total return is 0.5%.
Click to expand...

But no one talks about total expected return because there is no total expected return. Everyone's total return is going to be different based on how you play. Some profit, some don't. There's no possible way you can give a prescribed total return for every player in the game. You can, however, give an approximate average return to be expected over time, and this is what we focus on.

It's important to not confuse "total" with "average" :wise:
 
This thread is mind boggling to me!

Assuming MA admits of 90% TT return rate (looks like that has been the prevailing belief system in the game, and also some long term log pointing to that fact ), are you guys serious that this (90% TT return would lead you to Zero % over time) has been a new discovery to you ?

I've the same question to you all as Wizzszz did:

wizzszz said:
C'mon, don't tell me that it took you so long to realize that...

What did you guys do while you had math in school? Sleep?
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
So this is why everyone is complaining about loot returns. They depo 1000 ped, fully cycle it twelve times and then can't understand why their PED card doesn't say 900.
 
Cerberus said:
So this is why everyone is complaining about loot returns. They depo 1000 ped, fully cycle it twelve times and then can't understand why their PED card doesn't say 900.
Click to expand...

Remaining PED + whining posts value = 900 PED :ahh:
 
Cerberus said:
So this is why everyone is complaining about loot returns. They depo 1000 ped, fully cycle it twelve times and then can't understand why their PED card doesn't say 900.
Click to expand...

I do whine, but this is not me! :laugh::laugh:
 
Actually these days, getting 0% or very close to is quite possible. Just hunt highest health mobs available in shared loot and keep missing the item drops.
 
wizzszz said:
Sounds about right...



MA doesn't want you to play on those 1000 PEDs forever...

However, you did not take markup into consideration (which basically only means that someone else has to pay the bill (read: do the desposit for you) - but well, this is nothing really new now, is it? Simple math, and we've always known that MA can't pay out 100% or above)



C'mon, don't tell me that it took you so long to realize that...

What did you guys do while you had math in school? Sleep?
Click to expand...

Dude, you're not reading properly. I didn't just find out... If you read my first post again you'll see that I am surprised that this isn't discussed more.
 
Infinity01 said:
This thread is mind boggling to me!

Assuming MA admits of 90% TT return rate (looks like that has been the prevailing belief system in the game, and also some long term log pointing to that fact ), are you guys serious that this (90% TT return would lead you to Zero % over time) has been a new discovery to you ?

I've the same question to you all as Wizzszz did:
Click to expand...

Who said it was a new discovery? :scratch2:
 
Tried to post something but as usual the forum freezes the browser when posting anything 80% of the time.
 
e-lite said:
Dude, you're not reading properly. I didn't just find out... If you read my first post again you'll see that I am surprised that this isn't discussed more.
Click to expand...

Surprised that no one discusses things we all already know?(that giving out 10% of your peds will drain your ped card to 0 real fast). There is nothing to discuss there.
 
Luckycharm said:
Tried to post something but as usual the forum freezes the browser when posting anything 80% of the time.
Click to expand...

same problem for wks!!! :(

whiteknut said:
Surprised that no one discusses things we all already know?(that giving out 10% of your peds will drain your ped card to 0 real fast). There is nothing to discuss there.
Click to expand...

Exactly my point!

That's why i've said this a bit earlier:

Infinity01 said:
This thread is mind boggling to me!
Click to expand...
 
whiteknut said:
Surprised that no one discusses things we all already know?(that giving out 10% of your peds will drain your ped card to 0 real fast). There is nothing to discuss there.
Click to expand...

Infinity01 said:
same problem for wks!!! :(



Exactly my point!

That's why i've said this a bit earlier:
Click to expand...

So tell me guys, then why are you's in this thread posting? :laugh:
 
e-lite said:
So tell me guys, then why are you's in this thread posting? :laugh:
Click to expand...

You nailed it !!!

LOL, this is what i was thinking while posting earlier.... felt like i was trolling! lol.
......really laughing out loud in real!!!
 
e-lite said:
You're standing there with 5 peds in your pocket. Is 5 ped out of 1000 ped 90% ? Naa. The average return over those trips was 90%, but the total return is 0.5%.
Click to expand...

And if he'd started out with 2000 PED but done exactly the same hunts, he'd have 1005 PED left with total return 50.25%. Or started out with 100000 PED and done the same hunts, 99005 PED left and 99.005% total return.

It's not talked about more because it's a completely meaningless measure.
 
Jimmy B said:
And if he'd started out with 2000 PED but done exactly the same hunts, he'd have 1005 PED left with total return 50.25%. Or started out with 100000 PED and done the same hunts, 99005 PED left and 99.005% total return.

It's not talked about more because it's a completely meaningless measure.
Click to expand...

That wasn't really my point, but sure, I never claimed anything else then what you are just saying. You just double confirm what I said in my first post. And yes, it's just as meaningless to measure 10 hunts average as measure 1 hunts average, if you want to see it that way :)
 
Shoot n Loot

There is no sp00n..
 
e-lite said:
So unless you keep depositing cash into EU, wouldn’t it really be 0% return?
Click to expand...

No, for most active forum users 90% theory is not walid and will not be 0% return.
They play for free without depositing for years, at least half of them make profit.
Just try to whine a litle and you will get all profs you want in excel sheets, trackers, blogs , personal insults.. etc.

Even those who cud accept that 90% return theory usualy do not share same opinion on fact that 10% paid to MA for having fun with punyes is not exactly the same as 10% payment for aurly fun or ara fun or rextelum fun.
But yes who care, nobody pay that, ewryone here is profiting
 
the 90% return is a long term average so the amount cycled and cost per activity is quite important. On a 1000 ped for example you could hit a 10k hof and sustain yourself for a while as you give it back and at some point will likely be back to having 900 ped on your card justifying the 90% tt theory.

For me I think people should pick an activity they can repeat many times for their stake, ideally long enough for one cycle to last until their next deposit which would be equal to the 10% loss.

So in the 1000 ped example, pick something that would cost 1000 ped to do actively all week and then deposit your 100 ped, repeat that level of activity and take all the MU you can. I think this is especially important until you understand markup and how to get it.

Oh and measure the costs and returns yourself, plan for a loss and try to make it as predictable as you can. Once you can achieve this at whatever level you play at, finding that 10% from somewhere becomes a bit easier.

Ant
 
e-lite said:
Dude, you're not reading properly. I didn't just find out... If you read my first post again you'll see that I am surprised that this isn't discussed more.
Click to expand...

This is not discussed more because it is, to everyone with a basic understanding of math (which everyone who understood the concept of TT+X and Xxx% prices should have), absolutely no surprise.


For every X (with 0 < X < 1) this applies:
Limit of X^Y, for Y -> ∞ (positive infinity) is zero.

It will never reach zero though, as long as Y is a real number.



This is a logical consequence, there is absolutely no need to discuss anything here.
That return rate (long term) MUST be < 1 (less than 100%) is OBVIOUS, because MA takes their share.

You obviously thought that MA takes 10% and let's you cycle the other 90% forever?
Like in "one-time deposit fee"? Or how would you explain this line:

e-lite said:
But now I want to point to the pink elephant in the room that nobody mentioned yet.
Click to expand...


Even if your math is bad you can expect that MA is going to take a fee everytime you cycle your PEDs and that the total amount of PEDs gets less everytime you play.

Even if you utterly suck at math, you should, at least by going with your guts, be able to tell that PEDs_IN always less than PEDs_OUT.



So you can answer the opening post yourself:

THAT's why nobody is discussing that "pink elephant", because there simply aint one.
 
Jimmy B said:
And if he'd started out with 2000 PED but done exactly the same hunts, he'd have 1005 PED left with total return 50.25%. Or started out with 100000 PED and done the same hunts, 99005 PED left and 99.005% total return.

It's not talked about more because it's a completely meaningless measure.
Click to expand...

This is a little misleading. it is not a meaningless statistic.

Returns are not: account value minus peds lost in x number of hunts.

Returns ARE: total of peds used in hunts minus losses.
 
e-lite said:
And yes, it's just as meaningless to measure 10 hunts average as measure 1 hunts average, if you want to see it that way :)
Click to expand...

No, it's not meaningless at all. Because if you know what MA will take on average, then you can calculate what you need to average in markup to breakeven or turn a profit.

It also helps to know if you are above or below average in your own returns so that you can make some assumptions about what might be coming soon. Sort of like counting cards... ;)
 
Hey ya’ll! First of all, this is not a loot rant. I am somewhat happy as it is. I just want to branch off the discussion “90% Loot Return” and plant a little seed to see what grows.

So, from plenty of logs and tests the community have done, most of us (yes, I know, not all) have agreed to that the average TT loot return is around 90% over time. But now I want to point to the pink elephant in the room that nobody mentioned yet:

If you hunt for extended periods of time, and TT all your loot, your deposit will eventually run out.

MI-I-IIIINDFREAAAAAAAAAAK!!
 
You are mixing up accumulated loss and average loss. Yes, if you repeat your hunting trips over and over again with the money you got back from the trip before, then in the end the accumulated loss will be 100 %. But the average loss each trip will be about 10 %.
 
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