BBC NEWS: Slapping a tax on playtime

Jake Rogue

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The following interesting news article appeared on the BBC Website this morning.

Enjoy!

;)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7746094.stm

BBC News said:
Gamers more used to battling demons, giants and dragons may soon be tacking another mortal enemy - the tax man.

Slowly but surely authorities around the world are turning their attention to online games and virtual worlds and the tax-exempt status of the economic activity taking place within them.

They are places where people can make virtual millions selling land, property, weapons and even people. But as tax havens their days may be numbered.

In October, China's tax authority announced that it would focus on a previously ignored sector of its economy: the trade in virtual goods and currency. Sweden and South Korea have also moved to clarify the tax rules for virtual money.

Cost plus

Some wish them well, some wish them ill, but many are just pondering how to go about taxing goods and services that are by their nature immaterial.

The two most obvious moments when taxes could be applied are when virtual goods are sold for real money on places such as eBay or when a transaction happens in-game.

Many people sell gold, items and even characters via online marketplaces for many popular games - often a new World of Warcraft player will buy a character from a veteran because they don't want to work their own way up the ranks.

This transaction involves cold, hard cash and is already taxable in most countries - although the taxes are rarely enforced.

China has outlawed such trades, which are big business because of "gold farms", where people generate vast amounts of in-game goodies, usually gold, by endlessly repeating tasks that earn rewards within the game.

With the majority of World of Warcraft's 11 million players located in China this is a big business. Recent estimates suggest there are about 500,000 gold farm workers in China.

"It's very hard to stop markets that are trying to happen," said Professor Edward Castronova of Indiana University, who researches the economics and sociology of video games.

Much more controversial is when players are taxed when virtual goods are exchanged for virtual money, such as Second Life's "Linden dollars". In this case, the whole transaction happens in the game and no real-world money changes hands.

"I think it's an extraordinarily dangerous development," said Prof Castronova.

"It's as if every time I played soccer in my backyard and scored a goal, I would have to pay the government three euros," he said. "It takes away the game's contribution to human happiness."

Richard Bartle, a multi-player game pioneer and researcher at the University of Essex, says in-game taxes would spoil the fun.

"If you were taxed every time you bought a property in Monopoly, you'd be annoyed. The same goes for people in World of Warcraft."

Cheating times

But there is one major difference between Monopoly and Second Life, pointed out Theodore Seto, a professor at the Loyola Law School, Los Angeles who has written about the tax law surrounding virtual goods.

"You can exchange your Lindens for dollars or Euros on a floating exchange rate any day at any time, without limit," said Mr Seto.

Because Linden dollars are fully convertible at exchange facilities within Second Life and independent exchanges, trades that use Linden Dollars are taxable under US law, said Prof Seto.

Sweden's tax office agrees. In April 2008, it published a clarification to its tax laws which said that in-game transactions are taxable—in theory. There is no evidence that such a tax has been levied, but it is possible.

"It's easier to tax virtual transactions than it is to tax real-world transactions," explained Prof Seto. Tax collection is based on organisations reporting their dealings to the authorities, and tracking these trades is even easier within a computer program.

"The neat thing about it is, all transactions can be recorded. In the real world, we don't have that."

Prof Seto suggests that games can keep their fun-factor, and keep the taxman out, by banning trades for real money. World of Warcraft is one game that has such a rule.

"If 'gold' is not exchangeable for currency, and it's contrary to the rules, and they make it technically difficult to make the exchange, then I think we should treat the events in World of Warcraft as games."

"By contrast, Second Life actively markets itself as a venue for making real money."

Prof Castronova supported attempts to keep the real-world economy out of the gaming world, but saw flat bans on such activity as heavy handed.

Instead, he would like to see games designed so that people don't have the incentive to accumulate vast amounts of gold or spend real money to try to get something.

"The way monopoly is designed, I don't have an incentive to whip out 50 euros when I'm playing you and use it to buy Park Place," he explained.

"This is a game of four people who know each other, and if you pulled out a wad of real cash and tried to win the game, those people wouldn't be your friends anymore."

Mr Bartle said players should be discouraged from real-world trading, but suggests that social censure wouldn't be enough. Better, he said, would be real-money fines for players that "cheat" by spending money to get ahead in the game.
 
LOL at

Better, he said, would be real-money fines for players that "cheat" by spending money to get ahead in the game.

So, you wouldn't just have to pay 50k $ for a mod fap, but also a 10k $ fine because you are better than others :D
 
Prof Seto suggests that games can keep their fun-factor, and keep the taxman out, by banning trades for real money. World of Warcraft is one game that has such a rule.

Instead, he would like to see games designed so that people don't have the incentive to accumulate vast amounts of gold or spend real money to try to get something.

That would be EU blown out of the water :(

~Tracer
 
They just HAVE to tax everything don't they?

I already pay (seriously) +- 45 % TAX to the government in Belgium. That means that 1/2 of my income get's claimed by the government (if they have to pass that law here in Belgium, they would need at least a decade to make it functional anyhows lol)

(We use it for almost free healthcare, pay pple minimum wages etc etc but still 45% tax :eek:)

Well, let them bring it on :boxer:... let's creat a "black market" online then :D
 
LOL at



So, you wouldn't just have to pay 50k $ for a mod fap, but also a 10k $ fine because you are better than others :D

Haha,

BUY CHIPS FAST WE WONT BE ABLE TO CHIP ANYMORE IN A WEEK!!
SEND THIS TO ATLEAST 100 FRIENDS IN 10 MINUTES OR YOU WILL LOSE ALL SKILLS GAINED BY CHIPPING:laugh:
 
Blood idiot governments, this is a completely electronic transaction.

They are getting worse then the banks with their bloody fleecing,
 
Well If they want to tax withdrawals, then deposits should be made tax-deductable. Otherwise it would be double-taxing.
 
That would really screw things up imo.

Its been talked about a load recently but only in such a way that money taken out or profit... is taxed.... for them to now be discussing how to tax ingame trades is bloody ridiculous.... would each and every avatar within EU require a UK VAT registration??? I think not!

Rip
 
Enter the taxman.
Now that's real greed.
I already enjoy this "game" with taxed money, now they want me to pay tax again?

shezz......
 
god dam government assholes...

as if there isn't enough tax on everything already... as it stands people only get 10% of the money they make...

-Taxed on the money you make at your job...
-Taxed on the money you spend on anything...
-Taxed on the money your taxed money makes...

It's ridicules to actually think about how much money is eaten away in taxes...

Lets take a quick look shall we...

lets say a company has $1,000,000...

1. they pay an employee that money and like 15% - 35% comes right off the top depending where you live and how much money they're actually getting paid. (total is now $650,000)

2. That person then spends the $650,000 and pays sales tax 13%+ depending where you live... ( total is now $565,500)

3. The company that the money was spent on then is taxed on that income, once again 15% - 35% (Total is now $367,575)

4. The company pays an employee the $367,575 and that employee is taxed on that income 15% - 35% (total is now $238,923.75)

5. The person then spends the money and is taxed on spending that money 13% (total is now $207,863.66)

...etc and the cycle continues until that $1,000,000 is close to 0 because it's all been paid in taxes. It's bullshit how taxed dollars are taxed again and again just when the money changes hands... and all for what? so the morons in power can make more stupid decisions of where to spend the money? Effectivly just putting the country more in debt...
 
The question is...

Would you continue to play EU if they tax it?

Maybe create a poll?

  • I don't mind, bring the tax on.
  • I would still play, but I would change my gameplay.
  • I would not deposit anymore.
  • I would sell out and stop playing.

Ahhh, I don't know :scratch2:
 
Hmmm dunno 'bout you UK laws, but the options they are looking at in this text would collide with existing trade laws in my country.

If they wanna tax players who live off a game fulltime and earn nice bucks, fine by me. I do normal work and need to pay taxes too. If they're looking to tax my level however they're in for a huge fight :wtg:
 
I would if deposits are deducted from withdrawal taxes.

In my country I pay 50% basic taxes from my income where nothing like insurance etc is included, totally I pay around 64% of my income to government taxes + taxes of normal life (car i need for work, insurance, and whatever, government already takes 2/3 of my money without that I have spend anything). If they then also want my money I deposited in Entropia when I withdraw it, so tax my money a second time I totally paid > 100% taxes. How this shall work ? :laugh:

Politicians are the idiots of the world, rly.

In addition to this, a game, as they said themselves, isn't a job you have to tax.
 
But cmon taxes are good. Helps governments made up by special interest and corporate representatives make even more money. Wars are financed with your tax moneys to make stuff even more juicy for those high up in power, not to mention some get to die defending "king and country". Taxes also help a lot with keeping lazy parasite leeches on warm government payroll.
 
Now we will see the message when loging in
"You have entered in a government tax area"

Hunting tax 10%
Mining tax 10%


:mad:
 
U all missed the worst sentence in the article...

What would happen if 500 000 chinese come to Neas Place to sweat????:yay:
 
U all missed the worst sentence in the article...

What would happen if 500 000 chinese come to Neas Place to sweat????:yay:

Very funny!:)
 
the only way I would agree with this tax would be if you also get a tax credit on your losses ingame.

That would be kinda cool... you deposit and lose like 20,000 peds and the government cuts you a check for $400 or something... that would be nice :p would definitely make some peoples losses a little less harsh
 
In light of the taxation changes announced in the UK yesterday, I was saying to work colleagues only this morning that we'd be better off if the only taxation was on your wage. It'd cost you more at source, but then what you recieve really is yours with none of it going to the taxman afterwards. And it would solve this problem at the drop of a hat.

So it'll never happen.:rolleyes:
 
the only way I would agree with this tax would be if you also get a tax credit on your losses ingame.

That would be kinda cool... you deposit and lose like 20,000 peds and the government cuts you a check for $400 or something... that would be nice :p would definitely make some peoples losses a little less harsh


Yes indeed. When you are self employed/run your own business, you get to count what you put in and if you make a loss, in some cases you get money back from the gov. If monies spent/withdrawn in a virtual world or game are to be counted as taxable it has to count both ways, and I for one would fight to the finish legally to have that recognized.

In light of the taxation changes announced in the UK yesterday, I was saying to work colleagues only this morning that we'd be better off if the only taxation was on your wage. It'd cost you more at source, but then what you recieve really is yours with none of it going to the taxman afterwards. And it would solve this problem at the drop of a hat.

So it'll never happen.:rolleyes:

I agree completely Dusk. In a simpler more sane world, the need for funding by governments to provide services for the people can and should be done through one tax, income. No matter the source, and no matter what you choose to spend your income on. But then of course there would stil be problems and complaints, non drivers would moan they don't drive so shouldn't have to pay for the road system etc. But then I am a dreamer, as I'd also like to have a vote on what my tax money is used for, services rather than war for example, but we have no choice in the matter really, even in so called 'democratic' countries.
 
Selling tax shelters @ boxes!! Chat me :thumbup:
 
I already in gather more for the government than I do for myself. I'm supposed to be self employed. :rolleyes: I'm sick to death of tax on taxed on tax on taxed.
Start taxing my gaming and it's the straw that breaks the camels back for me.
 
soon tax for breathing ...

worst with tax , and it seems that the problem in many country , is they are wasted to make the system even more messy and complicated , wich result in even more costly system , and so , need create new rules to get new tax...
The more they get , the more they waste to chek , veryfy , control , test , think , brainstorm , for the whole sytem...
The system is eating the system...
 
As long as you arnt making a profit ingame they cant tax anything..
And I suppose that if you want you could set up a business with EU as its main target target take losses and tax deduct those against your other income.

Only thing is you would need to have deposited that money first I think.

But If you make 100000 ped 1 year ingame.(or claim to) Make a nice balance sheet for the taxman, and then lose it all again next year.. U might be able to deduct 10k usd from your IRL income.

Doubt they will agree with that though as its to hard to prove you made money and lost money again ingame.

While deposits in and out are a bit easier altough u are still able to sell ped to via pp orso. And lie about your ingame assets and their value..

Itll be very tricky, but I do think there are some ways to profit, use the law to your advantage specially in this early stage.

See If i can claim my last year losses, I might even try it :D
 
Gonna register me as a business and claim tax relief on my business expenses like decay, hunting losses and even my clothes putting on/taking off tax :yay: Oh and of course tax relief on a sparkling new gaming system and all the other things that I have to use to earn the money to pay my tax on :wtg:
 
IANAL, so what would happen if such laws began to take effect? Say the US passes a tax--would it apply to a "service" based in Sweden and, if so, wouldn't that violate international trade agreements? Is an online service an export?
 
Great news ;) so our losses become tax deductible :D
 
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