BBC NEWS: Slapping a tax on playtime

U all missed the worst sentence in the article...

What would happen if 500 000 chinese come to Neas Place to sweat????:yay:
Its easy. The price for sweat will be equal to the current dung price and ME will cost 120-130%. Chinese, welcome to EU ;). Should we expect EU crash then ? :scratch2:
 
IANAL, so what would happen if such laws began to take effect? Say the US passes a tax--would it apply to a "service" based in Sweden and, if so, wouldn't that violate international trade agreements? Is an online service an export?

:banghead: exactly, its not somthing thats suddenly going to occur without massive implications. other than VAT harmonisation across the EU (and in principle at that, not exact rate) i know of no cross border taxation. Its slightly poor from both the BBC reporter and the online experts that none of them have noted this, but then when have media and experts let sensible points get in the way of a story. there has been no agreement other than to leave alone the issue of taxation with regards to regular internet trading, why on earth would govenments deal with virtual worlds before that.
 
Its a outrage its all a big con if you ask me yes if you were a registered business all losses would be tax deductable but think about it if you make a loss you are not really taxed in the first place so wouldnt that just be defeating the object? :mad:
 
I normally try and put my full thoughts into answers on the forum but all I can say about gaming tax at this moment is: WHAT A TOTAL LOAD OF BOLLOX.
 
Nothing to see here guys.. this stuff wont apply to EU and never will ;)

or else MA would bankrupt cuz players would leave...
BBC News suck, when its on CNN then its reliable ..
 
I thought i'd add something useful and insightful for everyone out there thinking about this...

Me: G'd afternoon Mr Big Bad Taxman
MrBBT: Hello sir, i came to collect your online transactions tax.
Me: Sure dear sir, just show me where i insert my deductions for all the FREAKIN BLOODY ALREADY TAXED INCOME MONEY I PUT IN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!?

WTF are these people on??? (i want it far from my son)

To the "professor" writing that load'a'crap about ingame transactions, he should at least log into those places and see how much he'll do Without any sort of investment without whoring himself (i mean that literally... i hear some do that in some other "virtual" place and have done good for themselves) better yet... go tax the whores where it's illegal first then come after us pay-to-play Web users! Damn...

Not enough our govt leeching on our incomes... MA not so graciously increasing our loots proportionally to deposit (pun intended there)... bank taxes to deposit Real money into any platform i choose now this... PFFt... i say... PFFFt....

I'll even add the "McCormick" comment...

Ahhh the tax....
 
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ahh the tax...

Set tax for Trades, simple.
during Each trade we will get info about 10% tax because money changed hands:scratch2:

hmm...wts modmerc 300kped+tax. pm me. lol
 
AFAIK...

In the UK I can think of only two or 3 taxes that might be applicable to me as a member of EU.
1. Income tax.
2. Value Added Tax (VAT)
3. Capital gains tax.

1 would only apply if i made an income over and above the costs. If i put in X, and take out X, there is no net income. It's no different from me putting £10 in my wallet, and taking it out later, as I see it. The TAX man may see it differently, but then they see everything differently to normal people!.

2. In the UK VAT only applies if I am "self-employed," which I am not, as this is not a job, it is recreation. OR if the the total monthly sales value passes a certain limit. (A quick Google failed to find what this limit actually is in the UK, but I am sure it is probably more than I actually earn in a year, before tax, so no worries there!)

3. Capital gains tax only applies if I end up with more money that I started with. A bit like 1, but covers income other than "earnings".

to sum up my non-tax-man thoughts, I can;t see what I am doing is taxable. I make no profit, trade too little over a given period, and gain no capital.

So if the tax man wishes to tax me at 50% on my EU activities I look forward to a nice big tax-rebate!
 
So if the tax man wishes to tax me at 50% on my EU activities I look forward to a nice big tax-rebate!

hmmm...that might actually at last be the way to both have fun and make a profit with EU 100% :D
 
hey comunity

If this happen some day future of multiplayer games died ;)

Games are alive for me because is multuplayer ;)

Singlaplayer only for NOOB players
 
How the heck can you tax the virtual value of something? Things do not have any real value inworld, they have a virtual value in a virtual world. It's like taxing a potential... They gain real value at the moment peds are converted to cash and that cash lands on your account.

Here’s another thought.. If they want to tax gains made in a virtual world, then the following should be deductible:
• The electricity used by my computer
• The where and tare of my computer while I’m playing.
• Any investment I make to improve my game (buying a new computer, software and hardware upgrades)
• If the money I deposit was in any way taxed before, I should get a full refund of the previously paid tax for the amount I’m depositing.
 
How the heck can you tax the virtual value of something? Things do not have any real value inworld, they have a virtual value in a virtual world. They gain real value at the moment peds are converted to cash and that cash lands on your account.

Here’s another thought.. If they want to tax gains made in a virtual world, then the following should be deductible:
• The electricity used by my computer
• The where and tare of my computer while I’m playing.
• Any investment I make to improve my game (buying a new computer, software and hardware upgrades)
• If the money I deposit was in any way taxed before, I should get a full refund of the previously paid tax for the amount I’m depositing.

and thats exactly where they will tax it... as soon as you withdraw they will have a record and will tax you. All it takes is a little co opperation on the game developers side to send the transaction details to whatever tax authority deals with it in your country, whether it be the inland revenue or whatever. Then you will have to claim back the tax on your "expenses" like any self employed person has to, all very boring, with lots of forms and very bureaucratic.
 
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...Then you will have to claim back the tax on your "expenses" like any self employed person has to, all very boring, with lots of forms and very beurcratic.

that is impossible and unfair...a REALY BIG CAN OF WORMS... what about the dissabeled person on benefits who fills his time playing an MMO because he can't go anywhere on his own? is he self employed? should his benefits stop? what about retired people? what about teenagers who play? is that child labour?
 
that is impossible and unfair...a REALY BIG CAN OF WORMS... what about the dissabeled person on benefits who fills his time playing an MMO because he can't go anywhere on his own? is he self employed? should his benefits stop? what about retired people? what about teenagers who play? is that child labour?

:scratch2: there are all different kinds of taxed, if you don't profit from the activity or you don't aim to make a profit then you couldn't be taxed (depending on what country you live in) What has this got to do with peoples benefits getting stopped :confused:
 
you can't claim anything (unemployment, disability etc) if you are considered to be self employed...
 
you miss understand me. Don't think i worded it correctly, what i meant to say was that you will go through a process of claiming back tax like self employed people, you wont actually be classed as one ( i imagine) as you could still make some money on entropia (and set out to) while being employed full time.
 
how would they tax ingame trades tho since we dont have a recept every time a trade is done?
 
who gives a duck about the tax if it comes or not? the one who has not invested much does not care about a little tax added. the one who has invested/collected a lot, will cash it out through "other coutries" or other ways of cashing it out. nothing will change... =)


J.
 
I think we have many selfish people in Entropia.

When you play computer game, you live in country that provide for healthy living of you. We pay tax to ensure that all people can have access to health care, financial assistance, education, etc. So when you play game and you like game and you play game for long hours and those long hours become long days and long days become long nights and you keep play happy game and then after time brain goes a little mushy, then you effect bad the country that you live in. At work I dumb and so I generate less money for country, at home I'm impotnet by sitting on bollocks and make less baby for country. I impact country bad, and to offset badness I pay tax.

I lobby my local MP to introduce tax for riding my bicycle on several levels.
5p per mile - Travel to work
10p per mile - Travel home from work (increase productivity at work)
150p per mile - Pleasure cycling.

Pleasure cycling can involve accident. Accident bad for mothercountry economy, I protect mothercountry by paying tax.

If anyone is interested I lobby my MP to introduce tax for Mastication.
Mastication is very bad for economy. Much item of food could be sold as export to other country, but instead you chew it. Destroying the value of food. Those who protect country should buy food then export it to other country, thus geneate lots of tax for country and reduce burden on charity payments by governments.


There is another way comrades! If we all agree to buy whisky from chancellor approved sources, drinking at least 1 bottle per week. Buying government licensed class A drugs, and buying carbon foot-print credits for out computers, then I think maybe the tax on game play could be reduced.

If one day I take my peds to cash, I agree with govt. not to spend them in another country, but instead to buy items and immediately surrender 15% (18.5%) of the value of my withdrawl by purchassing items from the mother country.
 
Well If they want to tax withdrawals, then deposits should be made tax-deductable. Otherwise it would be double-taxing.

If that becomes the case, I'll become a hefty depositor and bust out a Madd4, ghost, EK2600 and head for hogglos! :laugh:
 
Pure Brilliance

Thanks Commodore-that was-amazing :) Loved it! :D Hehehe on a more serious note, It won't affect the average player too much-I mean, who here profits enough to withdraw constantly??? Sure some people may, but any profit I make ingame-I put it back into my character. If the time comes to sell my character, I doubt there will be much profit if any at all, so will not need to pay taxes to get the money back-I mean-no profit should mean no tax right?
Frankenberry-NBK Legion
 
I love things like this, but lets face it...this would be too awkward to set up for absolutely every way of making money online...
 
the problem with this is if i deposited 20000$ into game and when i finally withdraw after losing my ass... about 12000$, why would i be taxed? i didnt make money?

does the TAXMAN tax you from losing money on your investment? im not a big investor in RL and let me tell that the 20k figure shown here is just a exemple... but shouldnt tax applied only if u actually make a profit?

I really dont want to pay tax for my money just because ive put it online then took it back, that money is clear from any fraud, i already payed tax on it for annual tax payout and on every check i get from my boss... how they are going to make the slight line between this?

That make me think i should send a support case to MA to make sure then send me a log of all transaction i have made ingame so far. so i can prove i didnt make money out of this game, and if i do, im honnestly ready to pay a tax if that ever happen, but i dont want to pay for loses.

-----------------------------

On the other hand, if they only preparing for what the future await...

aka : EBGAMES open a shop in entropia, they need 2 salesman to anwser question when someone pop in the virtual shop. u get the job, so everyday u log into EU and is ready to help anyone who show up, u get paid hourly, in ped, so this would be "tax free" from a point of view if someone never get the ped out of the game, do online shopping(within entropia), go to a online supermarket(within entropia) which all cost are paid in ped... so actually someone could potentially (if MA would implement a real virtual world with regionnal online shop) be living without never having money in is bank account or actually having 0 real life income... bought is tv from a entropia shop, is ipod, is itune, is food, is clothes... etc... at that point he somehow would need to be TAXED :D

who know how far virtual world can endup... maybe they are just planning it incase it happen...
 
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the problem with this is if i deposited 20000$ into game and when i finally withdraw after losing my ass... about 12000$, why would i be taxed? i didnt make money?

does the TAXMAN tax you from losing money on your investment? im not a big investor in RL and let me tell that the 20k figure shown here is just a exemple... but shouldnt tax applied only if u actually make a profit?

I really dont want to pay tax for my money just because ive put it online then took it back, that money is clear from any fraud, i already payed tax on it for annual tax payout and on every check i get from my boss... how they are going to make the slight line between this?

This is one of the worries that I have to be honest. I'm pretty sure that if you do not make a profit on it, you will not have to pay tax-like going to a post office and changing money to dollars and back would only cost for the handling fees-you are not charged tax again to get your money back-otherwise people would not change holiday money back into pounds :)
Frankenberry-NBK Legion
 
the problem with this is if i deposited 20000$ into game and when i finally withdraw after losing my ass... about 12000$, why would i be taxed? i didnt make money?
In most countries you get taxed if you make a profit, and you can reclaim tax if you make a loss. This would make taxing mmorpgs a good idea for most players :)
 
Taxes

First of all, the only realistic way to tax a pastime such as EU or Second Life is to make a determination as to whether or not the player is conducting a business or is simply playing a game. Unless the country a player lives in also taxes gambling and similar gains, this kind of determination would define whether a person would have to pay tax on their profits.

Secondly, as everything is virtual until withdrawn, only withdrawals should be considered as income that could possibly be taxed. Deposits should be treated as a business expense as would internet access and depreciation on computer and other equipment.

Some people in both Second Life and EU are definitely running businesses and I for one do not see a problem in these businesses being taxed in the same manner as any other business in these people's countries of residence. After all, I pay tax on my business profits, why the hell shouldn't they. A lot of players in EU and probably Second Life are self employed in RL and pay tax on their business earnings. Why exempt virtual businesses?

I would have a problem with the concept of simply being taxed on withdrawals with no consideration as to whether or not business is being conducted. If a person's country of residence taxes gaming such as casino winnings, as they do in the United States (at least that is my understanding) at the rate of 30% (last I heard), then Virtual World "winnings" should also be considered for taxes simply in terms of fairness. In the USA, the IRS also taxes winning on TV Game Shows such as Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune. Once again, for taxation to be fair, then virtual games of any kind should be taxed in the same manner. If your country of residence does not tax casino winnings and TV Game Shows, then non business virtual "winnings" should not be subject to tax.

No-one likes taxes. We may understand the need for them, but no-one likes them. But taxation has to be fair and equal for all. If one is running a business whether virtual or in the real world and business profits are taxable in the country the business is being conducted then both should be taxable.
 
Selling 1k sweat for 5peds +tax

If I understood it right there's a law in Finland that says: If a game is located inside the euro-area (almost all of europe) you dont have to pay the taxes at least while playing. Those taxes are paid by the company that owns the game. If you withdraw money to you bank account you should pay tax for income - but at least in gambling it's win-bet=taxed income.

That is how it should be if EU becomes a taxed game. You put $100 into the game -> It's MA's money -> you play for a while, win $200 and withdraw, why should you pay taxes for more than $100. What happens ingame (trades and such) are MA's stuff, not yours. MA pays their taxes for what they earn from your work inside the game, afterall they own everything ingame right? :)
 
Hi,

first of all:
+REP goes to Commodore for a brilliant text that forced me to finally clean my monitor again,
and to James O'Neill for a sound analysis - very close to what I thought I'd write reading the thread!

I'm rather sure most of us are living in areas where nearly all income is taxable anyway.

And I'm rather sure, most of us are benefiting of it, too - guess we all enjoy the highways allowing us to reach any destination very fast, as well as the hospitals that patch us up again, without asking for payment first, if we tried to reach our destination too fast.

Many will appreciate the existence of the police that tries to keep the number of "too fasts" low, thus drastically increasing the odds of our children to survive childhood. And that does a quite good job to keep the "lootable PvP" areas limited ...

Further it might be considered a good idea not to have to hire a teacher yourself, to teach your children - could be quite costly ...

For sure I agree that a lot of our taxes are not spent in our own substantial interest, but this is another story. And for sure I agree that the police isn't just a blessing, very often it's way more dangerous to us ourselves than we wished.
This might be because both, the way taxes are spent, and the way the police is ordered, isn't necessarily what we desired, and we cannot simply change it - it might require a majority, and since easily influenced idiots are breeding at a breathtaking rate such might be hard to reach!
Anyway, should you be tired of this, too, think of alternatives. My Opalo is in very good condition, and I always have an emergency reserve of Med Weapon Cells, so no problem to do a small mutation. I might be with you, and together we might succeed to follow the advice a wise man once provided. ;-))) (*1, *2)

Well, seriously now.

Income is taxed nearly everywhere. There's holes in the law, unavoidably - things are evolving fast, and making new laws is a long, laboriously process (at least it should be - a lot of implications to think of!). So it doesn't make me wonder that the possibility to earn income from virtual worlds hasn't been addressed earlier, it's quite new.
And it doesn't make me wonder that tax offices all over the world now start to get long teeth - doesn't especially MA advertise (if they do at all) EU as a way to "make real money"? Well, not only MA, Linden too, quite some more in the line, and the RL money aspect of "traditional MORPGS" cannot be ignored, too - after all it's way more easy (and less time/ money consuming, compared to EU) to earn some nice RL coins farming evil monsters with your Tauren hunter - weren't there these nasty Gnomish rogues populating your fur, making you scratching over and over ...

Anyway, even now it should be theoretically taxable if we make a decent profit in a virtual world. Laws usually are aiming wide, and I'd not bet that a tax investigator finding the (imaginatory, unfortunately) 20K $$$ withdrawal from the selling of my (imaginatory, unfortunately) ModFAP wouldn't get very excited!
An (anonymous) ATM card would have hindered this, and this is why I think they're holding back - MA for sure doesn't want to annoy any authorities, given the tiny line they're walking in regard to "gambling" ...

So all that happens is that tax offices are now thinking of ways to make this more easy for their tax inspectors. Income generated in virtual RCE worlds will be taxed, you can be sure. And I cannot even be angry about:

Why should the guy that sunk 100K $/ EUR into EU to resell high end stuff should be tax-free, while I myself, that have sunk a multiple of $/ EUR into building a company, and creating quite some full time jobs, should pay the full tax - for him, too?

No way we'll avoid the tax, it's just a matter of time. And it's fair, too. Why should people that use new technology bolt holes have an advantage compared to, let's say, the business man that delivers you fresh bread & milk every morning? Would you like him to drown under massive tax pressure & create a tax free service of virtual wares in EU/ SL? Would you like to receive your bread & milk virtually, every morning when you log on? Enjoy your meal!

It is a very important theme, and I'm very disappointed by the way the RCE company's are handling this. IMHO it would now be the time to massively do lobby work, to teach them politicians what's the matter, to try to help to find a solution that would help to satisfy all parties.
We can be sure the politicians that will vote over the new tax law don't have any clue what they're voting about, and we can be sure, too, that the closed circles developing these laws will not have much knowledge of RCE's, too - they'll maybe will know how to get rid of Gnomish rogue disease if you're a Tauren, if at all.

There's a simple way how to handle tax in RCE's that wouldn't hurt any participant but notorious tax evaders:
  • Any withdrawal is to adduce, and it's regarded as income and treated as such
  • Any deposits in the given year are considered "costs" and can be deducted to reduce the withdrawals sum
  • Only if the result (withdrawals sum - sum of deposits) is reaching a certain threshold (10K PED?) it's regarded as actually taxable, lower values would be regarded as "gaming luck" or small scale gambling/ betting etc.
  • Should then actually a tax obligation arise, it would be treated like any other tax obligation, means: If you have loss next year, you'd be entitled to get back a part of what you payed.

Not this difficult, using no other methods than that that are in place anyway.

What the RCE industry has to realize is that they're not anymore beyond all reckoning. That they have to actively participate in the securing of their business model, now. Sitting back, relaxed, watching their participants getting !!!!! (earnestly harassed) by the tax men isn't exactly what I'd name "successful business practice".

Have fun!

*1: This paragraph, starting with "Anyway, should you be tired of this ..." is meant satirical! Don't try this at home, and don't try to use your Opalo against the legal forces in your country! Results could be hurting! And don't allow your children to read!

*2: I've used some youtube links to some eternal great moments of pop, to paint what I'm talking about. Preview worked, and multiple checking of "The Eternal Tome of the countless Rulez" hasn't got a hit, too - but I guess I'd better tell you what I meant:
  • "alternatives" - The Beatles, Revolution
  • "mutation" - The Rolling Stones, Street fighting man
  • "advice" - Bob Marley, Crazy Baldheads
Mod, feel free to delete the links if you find them violating "The Eternal Tome of the countless Rulez", but plz tell me because of what §§§. I'm always ready to learn. Thx.
 
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