Cheating by photoshopping!

[TimUnleashed]

Hey guys,

As you may know, me54321 is organising a n00b sweating competition, and we've come across the issue of photoshopping. We were going to set the maximum entry requirement at 50 Sweat Gathering skill, and base the prizes on how much you increase your Sweat Gathering skill.

Then somebody pointed out that you could cheat by photoshopping their own fake results in a screenshot.

Scanning the avatar can help TO AN EXTENT, but you could foreseeably have 50 skill, or 150 skill, and have the scan come up the same.

Can anyone think of a way around this to stop potential cheaters?

would love any suggestions anyone can come up with.

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

make them send in video evidence? (alt. show in a webcam)

much harder to edit

 

[Tawhid]

make them send in video evidence? (alt. show in a webcam)

much harder to edit

But very, very akward. (especially for regulators)

Imagine watching god-knows-how-many sweating videos.

Even more depressing than sweating.

 

[me54321]

Not all people have webcams.

any photoshop "pro`s" that can offer advice???

 

[xentric]

What if you required to take the screenie with an organiser present(in shot) and to be posted immediately so not giving time for photoshopping.. There can't be that many that could PS it so fast.

 

[lillenecho]

change the requerment to for example max lvl 2 sweatgatherer and have the persons attending to use the option to show all skills to others. that way u can check the sg skill lvl trough scanning

 

[KUBINY]

But very, very akward. (especially for regulators)

Imagine watching god-knows-how-many sweating videos.

Even more depressing than sweating.

you would not have to watch a long video - just a short shot of what the numbers are... with something moving around and such, to make it harder to tamper

 

[Jimmy B]

Scanning the avatar can help TO AN EXTENT, but you could foreseeably have 50 skill, or 150 skill, and have the scan come up the same.

Can anyone think of a way around this to stop potential cheaters?

One way is to have a limit on profession levels instead of skill levels. Scan the entrants and insist they have their profession levels visible.

 

[me54321]

What if you required to take the screenie with an organiser present(in shot) and to be posted immediately so not giving time for photoshopping.. There can't be that many that could PS it so fast.

I think you have cracked our problem my friend

+Rep

Barbie

 

[LordAJ]

I think you have cracked our problem my friend

+Rep

Barbie

Easy to get around that:
Make the skills window before. And drop it on to the picture. It would take me about 10 Seconds.

 

[Miller]

This is a bit vague but, when you open an image in Photoshop and then edit it leaves a "tag" in the file information.

For instance, if I take a photo and check it's EXIF data it will say "Created by >blank<". If I open it, edit it or even just resize it the same data will say "Created by Photoshop Version Whatever".

I don't know if there's a way to avoid it leaving that tag (never had any reason to) but you can check for the tag by right clicking the screenshot's icon, click Properties, Click Summary, and Click Advanced (if it says <<<Simple it means you're already looking at the Advanced screen).

So yeah, uness there's a work around that will show you if someone's edited the photo in Photoshop. Some people do use it to resize photos and this check would "flag" them, so if someone's screenshot does say "Created by Photoshop" you could give them the routine of:

Save screenshot in Paint
Open screenshot - it'll appear in a resizeable window.
Resize the window to the desired size
Take a screenshot
Paste the screenshot, crop the area required
Save

Hope this helps

EDIT: You'll see this (well, minus the camera information) if it's been created by Photoshop
[br]Click to enlarge[/br]

 

[Pepper]

Perhaps MA could provide/confirm this information, since otherwise sweating skills are non-chip-able and therefore worthless..?
You may have to get some sort of specific permission from the competitors though.

Just a thought worth trying perhaps?

 

[xentric]

Easy to get around that:
Make the skills window before. And drop it on to the picture. It would take me about 10 Seconds.

There is transparency to the skills/profession windows. Easy to make sure the noob taking the screenies moves(sets up a pose with organiser) before taking it. Not so easy to fake that in 10 seconds

 

[SnowLeopard]

This is a bit vague but, when you open an image in Photoshop and then edit it leaves a "tag" in the file information.

Heaven forbid someone would try to use another image editor than Photoshop... like Gimp.

 

[Miller]

Heaven forbid someone would try to use another image editor than Photoshop... like Gimp.

Heaven forbid someone might answer specifically relating to Photoshop! Better to help answer a question than to ignore it

 

[Morg]

Heaven forbid someone would try to use another image editor than Photoshop... like Gimp.

Doesnt really matter, you could edit it in any program desired...then open and resave it in MS Paint.

 

[me54321]

Easy to get around that:
Make the skills window before. And drop it on to the picture. It would take me about 10 Seconds.

If you think you can do that in 10 seconds i will test you lol.

I think the pose behind the transparent skills panel is a good idea. if you think you can fake that in 10 seconds please come prove it

 

[Phil Surtees]

This might work, it's basically peer review:

1. Pair the contestants. Event Organizer matches them up, does his best to avoid mixing buddies and soc mates.
2. Sweating is timed and limited to 2 hours per session so they can do it together.
3. Before and After, the sweaters go into a trade session and show what they got, and take a screenie that also shows time.
4. The pair must attest to each others results.

This is still on the honor system but at least it might make them think twice.

 

[timmmers]

If you take Jimmy's suggestion about pro lvls as s start point to make sure everyone starts evenly, then forget skills and that side of things...make the sweat the entry fee and prize.

20 entrants...all roughly same skills. Entry fee zero. End of event everyone hands over their gathered seat. All sweat collected becomes the prize...to one or top 3 entrants.

People could cheat..come with sweat already, and risk losing it to a bigger cheat, but as you have a rough idea of the max possible collectable in an hour it's going to be hard to cheat and not really worthwhile.

As far as I was aware, SG skills don't help much..evade and health etc help more in collecting sweat.....and what about focus chips??

You could also try insisting that entrants in any event had their skills uploaded onto Entropedia prior to entry. That may help?

Not as easy as it first appears this type of thing is it ?

t

 

[ACEwoK]

There is transparency to the skills/profession windows. Easy to make sure the noob taking the screenies moves(sets up a pose with organiser) before taking it. Not so easy to fake that in 10 seconds

nice one, i think this is going to be the solution to the problem here. otherwise i think we are just going to keep going round and round in a circle. If we find later that one of the people cheated, then that person should have their name forwarded to any and all subsequent organisers to be banned from entering any event ever again.

 

[TimUnleashed]

make them send in video evidence? (alt. show in a webcam)

much harder to edit

Definitely a foolproof idea, thanks! Would love a way that's easier though!

What if you required to take the screenie with an organiser present(in shot) and to be posted immediately so not giving time for photoshopping.. There can't be that many that could PS it so fast.

good idea!

change the requerment to for example max lvl 2 sweatgatherer and have the persons attending to use the option to show all skills to others. that way u can check the sg skill lvl trough scanning

When you select "show all skills" it shows all your professional standings - it still doesn't show your skill level, and like I said, you could for example be on 50 SG or 150 SG, and still have the same professional standing.

One way is to have a limit on profession levels instead of skill levels. Scan the entrants and insist they have their profession levels visible.

Thanks Jimmy, but the major problem was going to be deciding the winner based on how much they've improved their SG skill. Scanning doesn't help us do that afai can see...

Easy to get around that:
Make the skills window before. And drop it on to the picture. It would take me about 10 Seconds.

bugger...

but the skills window is transparent isn't it? if the event organiser HAD to be behind the skills window in the screenshot, would you still be able to cheat, do you think?

 

[Morella]

This is a bit vague but, when you open an image in Photoshop and then edit it leaves a "tag" in the file information.

As Morg said there is a work around. In fact I think there is a work around in photoshop itself. Not to mention tons of other ways.

 

[Arokh]

Kind of do a variation of what Nighthawk suggested. Perhaps get the entrants to show their skills via webcam to an organiser who'll take the screenshot from their PC. No way to fake it if it's done live.

Drawback is that this is a little tedious...

 

[Henceforth]

There is transparency to the skills/profession windows. Easy to make sure the noob taking the screenies moves(sets up a pose with organiser) before taking it. Not so easy to fake that in 10 seconds

if you make the screen with organiser, you can just edit the screen, and make annother screen and just paste over the crop sellection of the organiser.

and uploading the image would also take a few moments...

 

[me54321]

I think we have found the answer now,

If I stand right behind the SG skill in the trasparant window holding something differant or in a differant pose each time and then they have 5 mins to post the screenshot (and the time stamp needs to confirm this) even the best photoshoppers wont be able to edit it in time i dont think.

Thanks for all the answers people.

 

[TimUnleashed]

This is a bit vague but, when you open an image in Photoshop and then edit it leaves a "tag" in the file information.

For instance, if I take a photo and check it's EXIF data it will say "Created by >blank<". If I open it, edit it or even just resize it the same data will say "Created by Photoshop Version Whatever".

I don't know if there's a way to avoid it leaving that tag (never had any reason to) but you can check for the tag by right clicking the screenshot's icon, click Properties, Click Summary, and Click Advanced (if it says <<<Simple it means you're already looking at the Advanced screen).

So yeah, uness there's a work around that will show you if someone's edited the photo in Photoshop. Some people do use it to resize photos and this check would "flag" them, so if someone's screenshot does say "Created by Photoshop" you could give them the routine of:

Save screenshot in Paint
Open screenshot - it'll appear in a resizeable window.
Resize the window to the desired size
Take a screenshot
Paste the screenshot, crop the area required
Save

Hope this helps

EDIT: You'll see this (well, minus the camera information) if it's been created by Photoshop
[br]Click to enlarge[/br]

Thanks Miller!

There is transparency to the skills/profession windows. Easy to make sure the noob taking the screenies moves(sets up a pose with organiser) before taking it. Not so easy to fake that in 10 seconds

Sounds like a challenge...

Heaven forbid someone would try to use another image editor than Photoshop... like Gimp.

Good point. The whole question needs to be revamped to include all programs, not just photoshop.

Heaven forbid someone might answer specifically relating to Photoshop! Better to help answer a question than to ignore it

lol thanks for your insight Miller - it DID help.

Doesnt really matter, you could edit it in any program desired...then open and resave it in MS Paint.

yeah thought so.

if you make the screen with organiser, you can just edit the screen, and make annother screen and just paste over the crop sellection of the organiser.

and uploading the image would also take a few moments...

DAMMIT!!!!


So if I'm not mistaken, you can very quickly take whatever screenie the event organiser asks you to take, then copy it, grab the your previously fiddled-with skills window, fix it up and paste it on the copy, in a matter of a minute or two, and thereby cheat anyway?



Maybe if we make it so ridiculously easy to cheat nobody will bother?

 

[me54321]

I think we need a photoshop "pro" to test out if it can be done as i dont think it can in 5 mins.

not with me in the background.

 

[luthien]

This is a bit vague but, when you open an image in Photoshop and then edit it leaves a "tag" in the file information.

For instance, if I take a photo and check it's EXIF data it will say "Created by >blank<". If I open it, edit it or even just resize it the same data will say "Created by Photoshop Version Whatever".

I don't know if there's a way to avoid it leaving that tag (never had any reason to) but you can check for the tag by right clicking the screenshot's icon, click Properties, Click Summary, and Click Advanced (if it says <<<Simple it means you're already looking at the Advanced screen).

So yeah, uness there's a work around that will show you if someone's edited the photo in Photoshop. Some people do use it to resize photos and this check would "flag" them, so if someone's screenshot does say "Created by Photoshop" you could give them the routine of:

Save screenshot in Paint
Open screenshot - it'll appear in a resizeable window.
Resize the window to the desired size
Take a screenshot
Paste the screenshot, crop the area required
Save

Hope this helps

EDIT: You'll see this (well, minus the camera information) if it's been created by Photoshop
[br]Click to enlarge[/br]

i think this one is the easiest and the best one.. i tried if by simply copying into paint and save then but still had my graphic programm in the info

 

[unionova]

Creating a fake screenshot of your skill rank & points is easy. It's just barely trickier if you have to take into account having a person in the background of the skill window, but even then its quick and simple to do it. Unless I'm missing something.

Only thing I have to do is first make pre take a screenshot in bmp format, to not have any jpeg artefacts to worry about. Then decide how long the green progress bars should be, based on other skills, and what amount of points i want to win with. After that its just a matter of copy/paste and layer management.

Actually, its quick and easy to do it on-the-fly aswell (without pre making layers to paste onto the screen shot). I'll just take a screeny of my Mindforce skill window (with a person in the background) aswell as a screeny of my (fex.) Sience skill window.
SG skill is 5th from the top for me. Botany is 5th from the top on my Sience skill window.
Because the two rows of skills are positioned on the same place on my screen, the person behind is at the exact same place on both screenshots (in other words; on both skills). That means i just have position the Botany skill row layer over the SG skill row, and just delete the "Botany" skill name and letting "Sweat Gatherer" show instead.

​

These pictures were done on the fly, and it takes a few minutes. I did it with skills that were on a different row than SG and that adds a minute or two to the process. And Im not a PS pro by any means. One of the three skills is my actual SG skills, 2 of them are fake.

Oh, and relying on image information (the thing Miller wrote about) is not good either. That information is removed in less than 5 secs with the conversion feature in fex. Irfanview.

 

[rixk]

Other way to get rid of the EXIF data is to save the file from PS to a format that doesn't support EXIF data(.bmp for example), then open it in paint, save to .jpg and voila.