Harassment in Space PvP???

[KennyRS]

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[Boardian Chilix]

if thats harassment they should call it Space kindergarden instad of PVP
its your only option, if they dont like it have options deal with words / money / bullets, they have the numbers the ships dont know why they complain

 

[Side Slay Show]

I like when they come.. its fun =)
We even have a leaderboard going who shoots down the most pirates.

But i dont like that the gunners cant shoot back on a quad that fire from maximum range.
I vote for slower ships should fire longer.. so MS and sleips should have a longer range then a quad. a quad is faster it can allways fly away.

 

[Alainax]

So after three weeks of holding warprides in space PvP zones, by shooting em one time on every attempt or waiting for them to shoot me instead, the issue is finally up for discussion

16th sept it started according to my folder of pirate kill pics

Just a quick explanation for those on planet who are wonder whats going on… Imagine you are in the most uber PvP armour ever…. You are trying to TP out of the zone (only option is to tp) and someone shoots you once with an opalo. Your TP chip is stopped, and you turn to shoot back, however… you only have a sword.. so the opolo shooter is out of your range… you try to go towards him to keeel! Him with a few foul swoops, but you can only walk…. Where as he can run.
Only at very certain times when you can get him close enough, can you kill him and get on your way… but just then his friend comes running in with another Opalo. …

Now rinse and repeat. This is the procedure pretty much going on in space right now.

For the Normandie its tedious but not so bad as we have full gunner team and they love to shoot down the pirates, plus some of the pics are really funny I should post them sometime… Now where was I… as yes… answering!

Slays at the top of our leader board on pirate kills just now... I need to catch him!

The Warpservices base their work on the fact people can log out and therefore there was no additional cost in the past involved to provide safety. [The interruption however forces the services to actually defend their will to warp wich is quite reasonable for a profit orientated gamestyle in a PvP zone.

Its been interesting to read the reasons behind the recent campaign, however let me put this point forward to you.
How about those ships who do not actively promote or advertise logged out transport.
Those ships whose owners are in favor of removing log off,
Those ships who have had tens of thousands of peds traded to miners for gold to secure their flights
Those ships who have spent over a year training skilled gunners and highly skilled repair crew.

These are the ships who have spent a lot on enabling to provide safety, so surely by your reasoning these are the ships you are trying to encourage to exist? (not just normandie I add)


So surely by that logic those ships would not be part of the campaign?

In a daft analogy ( I like daft ones ) You hate all people in red jumpers – you love blue jumpers. So you are killing all the people in red AND blue jumpers…. To prove your point….. that make any sense?

It is a bug bear of many that logged out transport does not encourage or incentivize the upgrading of the mother ships, trust me.

However, many things would have to change before battles could be truly fought well up there. Gunning range would have to change, there is no point being allowed to throw rocks from behind a fence. Warp jumps shouldn’t be like TP chips, there should have to be an actual amount of damage inflicted before its stop – forcing real PvP battles. Like “ Ship cannot warp under 95% health” or something similar.

This would encourage upgrades, and truly engaging space pvp battles.

 

[RavenJade]

All space politics aside, the problem I have with a "forced" you cannot log out when on a MS is that at the end of the day, this is a video game that I spend thousands of real life dollars on. if a video game is telling me when I can and cannot log out that's taking my free will away.

That's the problem I have with it.

I understand that it would be a benefit to pirates and MS owners with huge SI to have the log out feature removed, however the day a video came can tell you that you can't log out when you want and go back to "real life" would seem very silly,and not in the games actual best interest.

But that's just my opinion in this on going debate. Perhaps someone has a better point of view

 

[John B Knight]

All space politics aside, the problem I have with a "forced" you cannot log out when on a MS is that at the end of the day, this is a video game that I spend thousands of real life dollars on. if a video game is telling me when I can and cannot log out that's taking my free will away.

That's the problem I have with it.

I understand that it would be a benefit to pirates and MS owners with huge SI to have the log out feature removed, however the day a video came can tell you that you can't log out when you want and go back to "real life" would seem very silly,and not in the games actual best interest.

But that's just my opinion in this on going debate. Perhaps someone has a better point of view

Fully agreed, people should allways be able to log out, but this should not include the secure transport of stackables - if one is going to move goods between planets it should be an actual activity of the game and not one to be performed while one has 'other' things to do in real.

 

[narfi]

There is about 20k usd in resale and upgrade value between the two ships in my fleet, some of the other fleets in space have more than that.

There is less than 100usd in resale and upgrade value in your fleet.

This is a HUGE difference and MA would be stupid to change the obvious advantages that those investments bring.

You are an annoyance but nothing else, and your suggestions would damage the game more than help it.

You will fade with the stars and some other 'pirate' will emerge for a time, there will always be a place in space for pirates, and there will always be opertunities for the lawless and morel-less to profit. But harassing others will never bring you greatness or great wealth, and in the end you will fade like the rest.

narfi

 

[K-Max]

So after three weeks of holding warprides in space PvP zones, by shooting em one time on every attempt or waiting for them to shoot me instead, the issue is finally up for discussion

Obviously certain people are done by now filling in their support cases claiming harassment by me and whoever took part in it. No matter how that is handled and concerned to be fact or not, i will respect any decision on that issue by officials.

The whole point of interrupting warps instead of a real attempt to kill the warping vessel results on the issue of people logging off while riding with stackables wich could be looted. There is absolutely no reason to pay some 100 PED in bringing down a vessel with crew when there is no loot to be expected.

The Warpservices base their work on the fact people can log out and therefore there was no additional cost in the past involved to provide safety. The interruption however forces the services to actually defend their will to warp wich is quite reasonable for a profit orientated gamestyle in a PvP zone.

Since these services provide the community with cheap rides all the time there is no real reason left for anyone to use their own rides and enter PvP zones. Space was like i remember made a lootable zone to have a risky gap between the different planetpartners concerning the market. This is at this stage not the case at all!

If the services can continue unharmed and the tactics of pirates are indeed outlawed there wont be any threat anymore and personally i would deny sitting all day at some station just to play the role as "the threat" to make space reasonable to be a dangerous place.

Our attempt to make space at least a little interesting by forcing action on the service side went successful so far, at least that is feedback i get from many people. However there are and always will be people that are not interested in PvP challenges or cut down profits and i can understand that aswell.

The logging feature on warp-rides and on top logging out in quads has to vanish or at least be altered to make space a reasonable place for PvP-lootable again. Our tactics will continue no matter what until it is officially outlawed and named harassment or the logging has stopped.

There is absolutely no intention to annoy specific folks on the rides or to focus on special services. It is the last try of a minority of people bringing a reasonable threat to a zone that is supposed to have a reason to exist after all. If we are outlawed then actually space as a border between markets is obsolete and the lootable feature can be removed aswell, wich is for a fact what the majority of hypocrats will demand.

Now please feel free to comment here on that issue without flaming against piracy or bringing in personal problems that are off-topic or insulting!

Should i have left out important points feel free to add more arguments that make sense after all.

Ok logging off removed fine. What about your ISP crashing and you can't log in again for hours, who's fault is it that your stuff is in space and you can't even try to defend it? That's not PVP that's preying on helpless then. Having your avatar log off after 30 seconds or so after a crash is I think mandatory especially in PVP lootable areas and it seriously can be not your fault sometimes. MA had to realize this and hence has allowed your avatar to auto log off, not to mention you can not log back in again if your avatar stays logged in.

Now if you agree with that, then what is the point of removing logoff feature. Anyone can mimic a crash cause a timeout and log off anyways.

Same goes for within MS's, now I am on a MS and say internet goes out, not my dang fault, why should all my loot stay on board the ship until my dang ISP fixes my internet so I can get off the ship and leaving me probably vulnerable for who knows how long. The MS is not going to stop at a safe zone forever for one crashed person to ensure safetly of their loot. Hell I've had my ISP provider loose internet for a day once.

How is MA to handle this Kenny??? You complain about this one feature of log off but no helpful solutions to this very important issue are ever suggested. And yes it is very important issue as with this low chance issue a possibility, anyone can cry wolf to MA about it and MA has no proof to say they were lying and their local providers were not having issues.

I seriously have spend a lot of time thinking about this Kenny and I can not think of a way MA can make you remove the logoff or leave your loot in space after crash ideas possible without some very bad ramifications happening in return.

PVP Lootable space is ill designed and implemented to start with and I personally don't see a solutions that is fair to everyone.

EDIT: Also I never entered a support case, these issues have really never effected my customers or my schdules at all during my shift as captain on a MS, I instead got myself some gunners on board and sometimes call in some quadwing support

 

[Cail]

So after three weeks of holding warprides in space PvP zones, by shooting em one time on every attempt or waiting for them to shoot me instead, the issue is finally up for discussion

Obviously certain people are done by now filling in their support cases claiming harassment by me and whoever took part in it. No matter how that is handled and concerned to be fact or not, i will respect any decision on that issue by officials.

The whole point of interrupting warps instead of a real attempt to kill the warping vessel results on the issue of people logging off while riding with stackables wich could be looted. There is absolutely no reason to pay some 100 PED in bringing down a vessel with crew when there is no loot to be expected.

If you're asking if this is harrassment, yes, you intentionally harrassing people with no real goal to kill them, is, in fact harrassment.

 

[KennyRS]

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[John B Knight]

Ok logging off removed fine. What about your ISP crashing and you can't log in again for hours, who's fault is it that your stuff is in space and you can't even try to defend it? That's not PVP that's preying on helpless then. Having your avatar log off after 30 seconds or so after a crash is I think mandatory especially in PVP lootable areas and it seriously can be not your fault sometimes. MA had to realize this and hence has allowed your avatar to auto log off, not to mention you can not log back in again if your avatar stays logged in.

Now if you agree with that, then what is the point of removing logoff feature. Anyone can mimic a crash cause a timeout and log off anyways.

Same goes for within MS's, now I am on a MS and say internet goes out, not my dang fault, why should all my loot stay on board the ship until my dang ISP fixes my internet so I can get off the ship and leaving me probably vulnerable for who knows how long. The MS is not going to stop at a safe zone forever for one crashed person to ensure safetly of their loot. Hell I've had my ISP provider loose internet for a day once.

How is MA to handle this Kenny??? You complain about this one feature of log off but no helpful solutions to this very important issue are ever suggested. And yes it is very important issue as with this low chance issue a possibility, anyone can cry wolf to MA about it and MA has no proof to say they were lying and their local providers were not having issues.

I seriously have spend a lot of time thinking about this Kenny and I can not think of a way MA can make you remove the logoff or leave your loot in space after crash ideas possible without some very bad ramifications happening in return.

PVP Lootable space is ill designed and implemented to start with and I personally don't see a solutions that is fair to everyone.

EDIT: Also I never entered a support case, these issues have really never effected my customers or my schdules at all during my shift as captain on a MS, I instead got myself some gunners on board and sometimes call in some quadwing support

Just relocate the stackables that were carried on the avatar when he logs out back to the last station storage and of course add storages to all stations.
Stackables that got lootet in space from hunting could go into a special container first to keep them ingame - those could be the true values at risk carried in space of people who choose to hunt there and it would keep the markup on those items high if planets would plan for them with some blueprints or if there were new blueprints to be used on special crafting terminals in space.
Voila no logged out stackables transport anymore and still some safety for people who loose connection, have to log or want to log to rescue their inventory as long as its tradet stuff between planets.
Space loot would make pvp interesting as to keep it ingame and having to carry it back to unload the container. For larger spacecrafts that stay out longer then small ones there could be an unloading procedure for containers every half an hour or hour that takes 5 minutes to process - which would move loot in player inventories.

Just one way how it could work

 

[K-Max]

Ok someone ready my post and actually had a good solution to logoff that MA should consider and I would not have a problem agreeing with it. Not sure why I never thought of it before.

If you crash or log off in space you automatically login at nearest SS of point of log off or crash. It is then your responsibility to get off that SS via hiring MS to pick you up or transport off the SS.

If this was implemented I'd have no issues. Although it still allows logging off to be safe but it does give pirate to band together for possible loot opportunities and it would mean MS's would be safer to allow passengers to log off and get to a SS.

 

[K-Max]

Just relocate the stackables that were carried on the avatar when he logs out back to the last station storage and of course add storages to all stations.
Stackables that got lootet in space from hunting could go into a special container first to keep them ingame - those could be the true values at risk carried in space of people who choose to hunt there and it would keep the markup on those items high if planets would plan for them with some blueprints or if there were new blueprints to be used on special crafting terminals in space.
Voila no logged out stackables transport anymore and still some safety for people who loose connection, have to log or want to log to rescue their inventory as long as its tradet stuff between planets.
Space loot would make pvp interesting as to keep it ingame and having to carry it back to unload the container. For larger spacecrafts that stay out longer then small ones there could be an unloading procedure for containers every half an hour or hour that takes 5 minutes to process - which would move loot in player inventories.

Just one way how it could work

lol just what another person basically said but instead of just stackable put your entire avatar at the SS.

 

[Shard-Angel]

MA cannot FORCE anyone from logging out.

There will be consequences of such actions, and will portray non-neutrality of a company for its userbase.

 

[narfi]

I could aswell question your sense of morality by asking how exactly you gained ownership of the MacReady MS.
If it turns out that indeed those who can deposit some 20k$$$ automaticly have more rights and more important voice than people who just invested some 100$$$ then maybe the whole discussion is indeed pointless to the end and i would strongly encourage everyone to leave the game asap.

Quite the opposite, and here you show your ignorance of all aspects of the game, and why you are not qualified to make requests for changes.

While it is true I command a fleet with a value of some 20k usd, I did not deposit that.
1 ship is leased (so not even mine)
The other ship I won in an event that took me 5 months (I didn't compete for the 1st month of it) and assembled an army of mercenaries (numbering over 200 people who helped me over all, and 30+ at a time in the final days) and organized them and built a strategy and spent hours and hours a day non-stop until I won. Not only did I do this, but I did it with the full knowledge of what I was risking since I was not leading for the second half of the event.

I play on a budget that most lower mid-level players would laugh at. But I have worked hard, and organized people, and manged my peds until I reached the goals I was striving towards.

If I put my energy and focus into playing the other side of the 'law' I could easily put together a force around the clock at any planet or group of planets I wanted that would make you and and any other former 'pirate uprisings' seem like the mosquitoes you are.

You are a mosquito in space.
Not because you only have a quad vs large ships.
Not because you have a lower budget than other players.
Not because space is 'unbalanced'

But because you lack the leadership abilities,
you lack the imagination,
you lack the dedication,
and you lack the work ethics to be anything else.

If it turns out that indeed those who can deposit some 20k$$$ automaticly have more rights and more important voice than people who just invested some 100$$$ then maybe the whole discussion is indeed pointless to the end and i would strongly encourage everyone to leave the game asap.

If you can not succeed with the small things, you can not succeed with the large things.
Maybe you are the one who needs to leave?

Right now more players are traveling space and playing on more planets on a daily basis than ever before.
I will continue to do my part to promote this game and bring those options to everyone who wishes.

narfi

 

[KennyRS]

<removed123>

 

[Silvia Universe]

Yep....thats what i talk about gratz you are able to gather people and leadership and all that...i couldnt care less btw...Point is that is exactly what i think is questionable since it was supposed to be a singleplayer event and by gathering a passive-agressive army of mercs to your assisatance (I know there was someone else that did it) you basicly kicked everyone out of the event. So dont dare to speak of morality to me ever again because morality is for everyone not for your own benefit. Since that is totally off-topic and was already discussed on other Threads and forums we may leave it like that.

Omg are you for real <snip>??
<snip>...

 

[KijkkiJikki]

There is no feasible way for MA to enforce logoff restrictions that are not unfair to those who have a network outage or an annoying ISP or a power failure etc.

But the issue of keeping loot lootable could be addressed in number of ways, some of which have already been suggested.

One addtional method would be to implement storage on each MS and privateer that is similar to planetary storage in that is distinct and only accessible from that ship. When you enter one of the warp ships your inventory is automagically transferred to ship storage. When you leave the ship via tp or quad, your stuff is automagically transferred back to personal inventory. If you disconnect through any method, your gear remains in ship storage. You need relog and exit the ship normally to get your gear back.

I can see a couple of possible issues arising. what if you are ejected from the ship? What if you are removed from guest list while logged out? So not a perfect solution but perhaps worth exploring.

Regards,
KikkiJikki

 

[mastermesh]

Yep....thats what i talk about gratz you are able to gather people and leadership and all that...i couldnt care less btw...Point is that is exactly what i think is questionable since it was supposed to be a singleplayer event and by gathering a passive-agressive army of mercs to your assisatance (I know there was someone else that did it) you basicly kicked everyone out of the event. So dont dare to speak of morality to me ever again because morality is for everyone not for your own benefit. Since that is totally off-topic and was already discussed on other Threads and forums we may leave it like that.

LOL.

You too could have had friends. Sadly, I guess pirates don't like having friends? Something about killing others tends to make them not add you to fl I guess?

I do see you point somewhat... but long ago learned the cogs that turn the wheels of the real cash economy are greased by back room deals everywhere... it's impossible to play this game as a single pve type video game like you can in other mmos because you are in direct competition with monopolies, corporations, and chain gangs, scammers, folks using multiple avatars, folks using one avatar to share society funds, etc. in this virtual universe... everywhere... and even when MA knows about it, they don't give a damn so it just continues...

stuff like that's been going on for years and will for many, many, many more.. every event is somewhat rigged because MA lets it be, and the community makes it happen.

Adapt or die is what they say is the thing to do... some do that better than others.

 

[Shard-Angel]

One addtional method would be to implement storage on each MS and privateer that is similar to planetary storage in that is distinct and only accessible from that ship. When you enter one of the warp ships your inventory is automagically transferred to ship storage. When you leave the ship via tp or quad, your stuff is automagically transferred back to personal inventory. If you disconnect through any method, your gear remains in ship storage. You need relog and exit the ship normally to get your gear back.

I can see a couple of possible issues arising. what if you are ejected from the ship? What if you are removed from guest list while logged out? So not a perfect solution but perhaps worth exploring.

Regards,
KikkiJikki

All that to "facilitate" scum who just want to steal it from you? The space pvp is a simple deterrent to keep planetary economies APART. It is NOT designed to spoon-feed the rats. That is just a delusion they feel "entitled" to.

Also, your belongings are YOUR property. When you travel - you KEEP them.

In no way does any MS owner have any right to your belongings.

Using your suggestion, what's to stop a rogue MS owner to arrange for a convenient "demise" of his/her own ship for all the stored loot?

Sorry. No can do.

 

[KijkkiJikki]

All that to "facilitate" scum who just want to steal it from you? The space pvp is a simple deterrent to keep planetary economies APART. It is NOT designed to spoon-feed the rats. That is just a delusion they feel "entitled" to.

Also, your belongings are YOUR property. When you travel - you KEEP them.

In no way does any MS owner have any right to your belongings.

Using your suggestion, what's to stop a rogue MS owner to arrange for a convenient "demise" of his/her own ship for all the stored loot?

Sorry. No can do.

I'm firmly in the camp that pirates are stealing from other players and I have no sympathy for their troubles.
However, MA have clearly designed Space to be lootable and are enabling the thieves. The log off issue screws with that design. So I am just looking for ways to make it work as designed. Personally I would be very happy if space were non lootable but that isnt going to happen in the foreseeable future. With this idea your belongings would still be your belongings, the stackables would just be in storage instead of inventory for the duration of the flight. MS owner would not own or have access to them. They would not even have info about how much of your stuff is currently in ship storage.

Yes it possible that a nefarious MS owner could screw you over, in the same way that a quad pilot can arrange to die beneath the guns of a friendly pirate. My view is that trust is an big part of business. Do business with people you trust. If necessary build trust through smaller deals. If a ship is regularly being shot down it is not likely to get much repeat business.

Regards,
KikkiJikki

 

[Xane]

How about this:

If you log out or are disconnected while in a Mother Ship you will spawn at the location floating in space just like you do with the smaller ships.

Also your ava can not leave the game if the ship it is in has been attacked in the last 60 seconds.

This is PVP so there is supposed to be some risk at some point right? As of now the log out feature contradicts the PVP element.

Ive been in dog fights and gotten disconnected and ofc I got looted, but this is a risk I knowingly took.

I say let MA make PVP space actually lootable or remove PVP in space all together.

 

[Xane]

If I put my energy and focus into playing the other side of the 'law' I could easily put together a force around the clock at any planet or group of planets I wanted that would make you and and any other former 'pirate uprisings' seem like the mosquitoes you are.

I hate when I can't say what I want.

 

[Steve_saber]

How about this:

I say let MA make PVP space actually lootable or remove PVP in space all together.

I'd vote for that.

Actually I like this even more:
remove space all together.

Compared to other games space flight is crap anyway...I'd take a 100 ped TP over dealing with <replaced: pirates>...

 

[Xane]

Wait for it....wait for it.....snip!

 

[forgo]

I would say its an obvious harassment tactic. But not one that is outside of the mechanics of the game.

If warp mines exist then surely the intention is there to begin with for these kinds of interruptions to take place, if the players so decided, and got organized to do it. For whatever reasons they may be, greed, diplomacy, competition, grudges, your boss sucks ...whatever.

A MS does have a vastly larger arsenal if you include quads and guns, and incredible tanking power. When properly manned of course. These kinds of things while a major pain in the ***, shouldn't be much of an issue to fear or resolve for a MS.

So while I hate to somewhat side with the piracy acts, it is a function of the intended design of space.

As far as logout, I would really like to say "yes keep log-outs with no risk in" for obvious reasons.

But I think the capabilities of a MS should matter for warp rides, and when manned and upgraded should provide near immunity and the safety people want anyhow.

Owner A could have 500 SI and warp all day with safe travel for logged off passengers and charge regular price.

Owner B could have 20k SI and warp all day with safe travel for logged off passengers and charge regular price.

Lets say all loot on board could be looted, you now have a major difference on which ship is more comfortable to take that risk on, which on a couple ships still is practically zero risk, due to upgrades and crew alone.

Investment should see a benefit. And if space is truly intended to be PVP then it should be.

That said, I think maybe we could still have log-off possible with the possibility it can be looted while traveling.

If a player wants to pay some insurance (to cover wire and tool), they can log out with the effect of a repairer on board. The station would automatically be determined by where damage is being done most, with offset delays of transfer. (With enough players on board, even a coordinated ninja attempt by a MS owner would be a task to complete before you got alot of bad attention quick.) Skilled passengers with rk-5 and rk-20s could constitute a discount, and provide a greater service that benefits all on board, even if they log out.

Once docked, the player is automatically put into space station.
If atmosphere drop, then automatic 2 ped to planet.

This way they arrive to destination without having to log back in, but they have some risk still while being logged out. With the ability to mitigate that risk while being offline and repairing, and by choosing a ship that has invested in your safety, has a good reputation, and a good passenger base, there shouldn't be much to worry about anyhow.

And for the freedom of true choice, those that want to avoid all PVP risk can pay a big TP fine that goes into a space loot fund or something that goes directly to space inhabitants, like ship wide shared loot? or something.

I want to say like Massive did to loot when we had ingame-ads. TP fines could add to space loot.

 

[Neil Stockton]

I think the point is we have 1 quad wing who takes advantage of technicalities in the program to repeatedly impede others from going about their business, while having no capability or intention of destroying them in PVP. So yes, sounds exactly like harassment to me.

 

[mastermesh]

I think the point is we have 1 quad wing who takes advantage of technicalities in the program to repeatedly impede others from going about their business, while having no capability or intention of destroying them in PVP. So yes, sounds exactly like harassment to me.

or... role playing in a pvp game in a mmo...

 

[Shard-Angel]

I am all for keeping space pvp and fully lootable.

I am all for keeping planets many many hours travel apart - to keep economies apart - and letting MS economies and trade routes form.

But if LOG OUT is prevented, then this is DIRECT HARASSMENT from the Mindark. We are ALREADY risking real money for travel - further intervention is NOT acceptable.

 

[mitsuwa]

lemme just throw this little snippet from section 8 of the ToU

"
c. You cannot interfere with any other Participants ability to use and enjoy the Entropia Universe.
"

i wonder if locked up in space for a couple of hours due to pirate harassment would qualify as interference. Especially if they don't have any way to actually play in space, for example w/o a spaceship.

this is under section 8 btw, along with "n. Gambling activities are expressly forbidden in the Entropia Universe."
XD