How Entropia Works (IMHO)

Some other stuff, that I tested well enough to presume it as fact: Loot is dependent on damage the mob took, not on the mobs maximum hp. This means when you let the mob regenerate, your loot will be higher. This also proofs that loot is determined after you kill the mob, and not before.

Although I tested this long ago, it could be changed.

I'd have to see the results from a very well done experiment to believe this...

Part of the reason I think large mobs have poor average loot (tt return) is because they take longer to kill, and thus have time to regenerate, which increases costs. My best hunting returns in general are when I can kill most of the mobs before they have a chance to regenerate.
 
Some other stuff, that I tested well enough to presume it as fact: Loot is dependent on damage the mob took, not on the mobs maximum hp. This means when you let the mob regenerate, your loot will be higher. This also proofs that loot is determined after you kill the mob, and not before.

curious. so would revive killing result in better loot?
 
I tested that when right after a VU there were very static loots. Loot was somthing like: 20pec, 40pec 80pec or 240pec from each molisk young you looted. When I shot them just more then halve, and let them regenerate, the loot was more like 131 29 60 120 130 100 etc. I killed about 20 molisk like that and every single molisk I let regenerate had a loot that didnt fall in the standard loot inteval, and was always a percentage higher about the same as I let it regenerate.
The findings were not realy accepted by other EF users (to put it mildly ;)) so I kinda let it drop.
 
curious. so would revive killing result in better loot?

Well, the whole point I did this test was exactly that. When I killed and looted already hurt mobs (oc i wait a bit if someone comes to claim it;)) my general experience was that loot was a bit higher. That got me thinking, and inspired me to do that test.

However, loots have changed quite significantly since. To be sure of it new tests should be done. But since the loots are not realy static anymore it is a lot harder to test this.
 
Some other stuff, that I tested well enough to presume it as fact: Loot is dependent on damage the mob took, not on the mobs maximum hp. This means when you let the mob regenerate, your loot will be higher. This also proofs that loot is determined after you kill the mob, and not before.

Although I tested this long ago, it could be changed.

Actually, this is something i had seriously considered in light of taming. When taming a big mob i noticed a few things:
  • when whipped down and then allowed to regen (or perhaps when attempting to tame) the dmg counter seems to be reset, so that whomever brings it back down to low health with the most dmg gets the loot/tame capability, not the one with the highest total dmg (and gets that % of the loot). I will have to pay more specific attention to this one, but that suggests taming behaves differently if true.
  • If the first point is true, this also suggests that taming a mob, definitely one of the slower and decay-intensive ways to loot a mob, doesn't benefit from Witte's observation
  • If it's not true, it would explain what seems like a relatively high proportion of globals i see on taming mobs like big daikis
  • It could also explain why mobs that crit you, that you return for, are perceived to global more
 
Quite an interesting find just reported, which is indirectly quite relevant to the topics under discussion here:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77496

This would also in a way fit another part of my theory i have, with the multipliers. As soon as an ava enters the area of a mob/ore it's multiplier is set, run away from it and it resets.

If each mob get a certain prefix per ava or not i dunno though. But most likely only one so all avas have the same prefix on the same mob

Very interesting. But what about all the times folks revive kill and the loot still sucks?

See my above post :D

I tested that when right after a VU there were very static loots. Loot was somthing like: 20pec, 40pec 80pec or 240pec from each molisk young you looted. When I shot them just more then halve, and let them regenerate, the loot was more like 131 29 60 120 130 100 etc. I killed about 20 molisk like that and every single molisk I let regenerate had a loot that didnt fall in the standard loot inteval, and was always a percentage higher about the same as I let it regenerate.
The findings were not realy accepted by other EF users (to put it mildly ;)) so I kinda let it drop.


And 20 molisk are enough to test on you think? come back with the result after a MINIMUM of 500 killed in that way.

What you most likely experienced was a bad loot cycle and then when you let them regenerate you just entered the good loot cycle that happends every hour or soo.
 
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bah possting error :p

Wow, four posts in 5 minutes, with the last one quoting yourself. :laugh: :rolleyes:

There's a little button with a '+ " ' on it at the bottom right of every post...

use it! :wise:
 
And 20 molisk are enough to test on you think? come back with the result after a MINIMUM of 500 killed in that way.

What you most likely experienced was a bad loot cycle and then when you let them regenerate you just entered the good loot cycle that happends every hour or soo.

Well that was also one of the points in the previous discussion. The point is, when every single molisk gives a static look, except the ones that regenerated, the chances that after 20 positive results the regeneration of the mob has to do with that are enormous.

Or to put it differently, when the chance to get a nonstatic loot is 1 in a 1000, how small will the chance be to get a nonstatic loot 20 times in a row then? Anyhow, I am not going to have this duscussion again ;).
 
Wow, four posts in 5 minutes, with the last one quoting yourself. :laugh: :rolleyes:

There's a little button with a '+ " ' on it at the bottom right of every post...

use it! :wise:

dont know how it works exactly and to lazy to figure it out :p

And the last post was an error.. pressed the wrong button :p
 
I think Witte's test was pretty conclusive given the form of the loots. But of course, it may have changed since.

It could also explain why mobs that crit you, that you return for, are perceived to global more

Yes, I noticed this myself although it could just be that mobs carrying a lot of loot are more likely to be violent ;)

However, I've noticed it a lot less since I started using a tp chip. I honestly can't remember a single mob I've tp'ed back to that has globalled, whereas when I used to run back to them whilst letting them regenerate it seemed to happen more than I'd expect.
 
hope folks are looking at this very good thread. (bump time)
 
Read through the whole thing. Great post, very much agree with the mystical things people have been placing on the system because I'm a programmer too and while MA can control whether you have a 10% chance at something or 88% chance at something, they HAVE to set a value. Of course unless they decided to invest in an atmospheric noise detecting system like the one random.org is using.
 
The way loot really works

At MA HQ there two guys in the team called Sven, and Erikson. Their job is to sit at the terminals and play EU from the other side - they take on the roll of creatures in your vacinity. When you attack Sven or Erikson, they grade you according to the fight that ensues and activate the global command for your avatar. All normal loot is automated, except globals and hofs that require their direct intervention. Have you never noticed after your killed the animals speak?, this is these two guys saying uuunlucky or some comment on your death. Also have you globalled mining and had a creature spawn on you?
Yep Sven and Erikson again .

+ Rep to the loot team I say Sven and Erikson You Rock :wtg: (unless my loot sucks in which case you guys do to :)
 
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i'm 99% sure that the avatar involved in looting partially determines the loot because:
- marco has stated it before (don't know the post, but i've read it here in EF)

personally it is my impression that the loot is not in the mob, but generated when the mob is killed. I seem to recall some statements from Marco on this (but can't find a reference right now).

I've tried to comb through Marco's posts, but can't find the reference you guys are referring to. If you could find it for me, I'd appreciate it very much.

Or, if Marco wants to come here and tell me that the loot is not determined during spawning, that would be great, also. :)
 
I've tried to comb through Marco's posts, but can't find the reference you guys are referring to. If you could find it for me, I'd appreciate it very much.

it was a very old comment he made on the entropia pioneer's site - not here.

to paraphrase, he said: the value of the loot is not avatar dependent but the avatar can influence the content.

this is sometimes interpreted as two avatars each kill a exarosaur stalker and receive a 5 ped loot. in one case, the loot is 2 hides and the rest in residue. the other avatar has greater influence and receives 4 hides, a pixe harness, tooth, and the reset in residue.

another equally valid interpretation is that one avatar hunts molisks and the other male snables. the first through the influence of choice loots molisk teeth. the second hair gel. influence, in this case, being the choice of animal as these the molisk teeth cannot be obtained from the snablesnot.
 
Few comments about that...

Doesn't this person hunt them more than pretty much anyone else?

Is he hunting them with a higher dam/sec weapon and thus killing more of them?

Is it possible this person is in a very good part of his programmed luck cycle (supposing that exists)?

This person has very high skills, is it possible that makes a difference?
Stumbled across this thread and thought i'd make a reply before someone comes with more envious/bitter comments about the hof i just got.
All of the questions Xen asks here can be answered with "yes".
I hunt them on average 16-17 hours a day atm, i hunt with near maxed honor - not breer, and it does seem like i'm having an amazing luck streak atm. Same day as i got my two hofs i was actually complaining a little that it seemed everyone else got the big hofs, even though i hunted them as much as i do... at that time i hadn't hoffed for two months, and hadn't had many globals in that period either. People in my soc know how dedicated i am, and would definitely agree that i earned it... at least the first two :)


Edit; Doer, i've had periods of near 10k ped too without globals. And you know they're bigger in the spawn i hunt in... Seriously, this is luck, and i'm buying the bigger tickets, and more of them too.
 
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I hunt them on average 16-17 hours a day atm
From anyone else, I'd think they were exaggerating. From you, I take this as proof of your modesty. :laugh:

I hunt them too, about 1/100 of the amount DarkFire does. The only reason I do is because they skill well, in any skill. For globaling, I shoot the occasional Tantardion that you find every now and then. :D
 
Very much +rep
 
Very well written post.

yes it is long but the up side of that is that it is well thought out researched and easy to understand

+ REP
 
The way loot really works

At MA HQ there two guys in the team called Sven, and Erikson. Their job is to sit at the terminals and play EU from the other side - they take on the roll of creatures in your vacinity. When you attack Sven or Erikson, they grade you according to the fight that ensues and activate the global command for your avatar. All normal loot is automated, except globals and hofs that require their direct intervention. Have you never noticed after your killed the animals speak?, this is these two guys saying uuunlucky or some comment on your death. Also have you globalled mining and had a creature spawn on you?
Yep Sven and Erikson again .

+ Rep to the loot team I say Sven and Erikson You Rock :wtg: (unless my loot sucks in which case you guys do to :)

I think they have just employed a third member of the team, Goran.

;)
 
Great! I read a little bit about looting, and I will read the whole article the coming days, thanks for all the work,

+rep :D
 
As the post is VERY l-o-n-g indeed i wont quote it entirely (sry about that, and i'd try not to take words out of their context) but only some parts i'd like to argue...
...
... but in general I'll try to focus on the important part: Loot.
a "most" would fit great there (most important part: Loot...)
First let's set some facts down as our foundation.
  1. MindArk is in business to make money
  2. MindArk is in business to make money
very, very true... and very normal i would say...
but then, if we jump all the way down, to "the conclusion" we may read:
...this game is not really in their control. It's in ours...
something doesnt seems to be right here... no one "in business to make money" doesnt hand the control to the customers... in other words: in order to make money one has to be in control...

now, 1 step further:
How the game works (minus loot)...
...
This is done every time I attack the trox,

  • Determine if the attack hit based on skill and other modifiers (yes or no based on percentage)
  • Determine if CH occurred (yes or no based on percentage)
  • Determine random amount of dmg
  • Subtract the dmg amount from health left
  • Subtract set amount of decay from used equipment

Every shot/attack creates up to 3 random numbers and 2 set numbers (decay & health)...
...
After every successful attack and dmg. The system must determine if health minus dmg <= 0.0 If so, then status = dead. So either I killed the trox or the trox killed me. If I killed it, I get to loot it.
so, basically, the system is working (hard enough i may say) to generate/calculate several "numbers" for every shoot (or bomb, or crafting "click") that each and every one of us are doing within the universe... a hell lot of computing if you are asking me...

but, in your opinion:
...No system could keep up with each individual session, track with what they do the whole time...
to "keep up with each individual session" would mean, in programming terms of course, to calculate a (one) "number", i call it the "luck factor", a result of a predefined "formula", every x seconds (or minutes), for every avatar... that is not too much for a system that already generates/calculates several "numbers" for every shoot (action) made within EU...

and now:
as we can see, "the system" is able to generate several numbers for every shoot (action) for every avatar witch is hunting...

but...
How Loot works
I've read many theories about how loot works in Entropia. Hunting, mining, crafting, etc. whatever the activity, there's tons of theories. However most of these theories all suffer one fatal flaw: They assume it's personal.

Many theories are based on % back during a given time frame, how much they deposited last month, etc. Essentially tracking your "session" and giving loot only as you deserve. This is all nonsense. No system could keep up with each individual session, track with they do the whole time, and assign loot as needed in any decent way. What if you quit early, change "jobs" or any of the 100s of changes occurring in EU every day. There's no way a system could assign proper loot drops in that method.

so, when it comes to "loot" (just another action), the system is suddently unable to handle it... let me remind you that the looting would be 1 (one) action per mob killed VS, in many cases way more actions done to get the mob killed

very picky system we have here... lol... system is willing to calculate/generate several numbers per shoot but when it comes to generate/calculate the most important number, the last one - the loot - the system just refuses to do that... letting the loot to be "random" and letting us to be "in control"...

and now:
How loot is created

That's right folks, you heard me correctly. Every mob in Entropia is assigned its own loot upon its spawning. When a new mob is spawned, the loot pool (for that mob type in that spawn location) is assessed. A certain percentage of "no loots" is pre-determined. As for the rest:
A calculation is done to determine how much TT value that specific mob will have, either from 0 to the top available amount possible for that mob at that time. The loot amount is based on a sliding scale, making larger loots much less likely and even rarer as they get larger. (Keep this in mind. It shows up again later)
Once a TT amount is determined, the specific of the loots are figured. Generally (at this moment) loot is assigned into 4 rough groups:
  • residue
  • oils
  • other stackables
  • drops
Drops refer to anything w/ a value bar. Oddly enough, residue is determined last, as they are the default loot.
First, it randomly determines if a "drop" will be assigned. If so, which item(s) and how much TT value (out of the amount already determined). Then other stackables (molisk teeth, merp wool, etc.) are assigned, if any "loot amount" is left. Then oils and the balance is made of oil (or robot) residue.
Now that loot is assigned, the mob is generated in a random location within the "herd area".

another "tone" of calculating/generating... numbers for every mob over there... and i'd say the amount of mobs is far bigger then the amount of avatars in EU... and i mean FAR bigger... but for the sake of randomness (all) the mobs can carry numbers - while avatars dont...
even if generating real time "numbers" for an unlimited amount of mobs in EU would be way harder (in programming terms) then assigning a "luck factor", every (lets say) 5 minutes, for a limited amount of avatars acting on EU at a given time...
and what about the mobs that are looted in 1 month (or 6) from spawning?... how could the "dynamic" of the loot pool settle that delay?...

...
In conclusion
Random, random, random. As I said, MA created a very dynamic game that really doesn't care what we do. The loot will distribute based on what we, as a community, do. What we hunt, where we mine, what we craft, how much we are willing to pay in markup etc. etc. etc.
In conclusion
your (initial) post is a very nice presentation for EU ,witch, btw, i would expect to read in one of MA's official previews/reviews (that makes me wonder: what if...?), and witch still misses to explain some of the "hot issues" that all of us are experiencing every day... how about some "minor" details... such as the "ever lucky" ones that are always able to pick the right mob from the "random" herd... over and over...
Aside from what MA allows to be looted, this game is not really in their control. It's in ours. That's what makes it such a great game.
a slighty alteration to your last phrase and we have the truth:
Because of what and how much MA allows to be looted, this game is really in their control... witch, given the fact that they are "in business to make money" is normal and after all isn't such a bad thing... for as long as they would keep those "hot issues" fair and decent...
 
Thanks for your response, The One. I'll answer a few specifics you mentioned, but let answer the 2 basic issues you raise first.

In essence your main problem with my analysis is the issue of what is easy and hard computations. It seem some things I claim are simple, yet very similar things I claim to be difficult. This is not hard to explain. Quite simply, some things are quicker/easier for a computer to do 1 way then another.

For example, it's much easier/quicker for a system to generate a random number within a very small range, {I.E. the 25.5-51 dmg on a Korss 400(L)+A104 w/ 10/10 stats (or 51-102 if crit=yes)} instead of, say, determining when your last depo was, what your avg. depos are, what luck cycle your ava is in atm, whether globals are allowed in that area atm, and all the other factors the paranoid want to ascribe to their chances.

Creating random numbers is quite fast and easy for a system to do. Also, don't forget that Calypso, CND and CP are separated into multiple servers. All this hard work is not thrust upon one single system.

But even then, lag can occur can too many avatars occupy a given server.

Your other main problem is that I say MA has no control over the game, yet they must if they are to make money.

The answer, again, is the casino mentality.

In casinos, there are pit bosses to make sure there is no cheating. But they know that in the long run, their blackjack tables will statistically return $xxx per/ $x,xxx bet on it over the course of a typical day. They also know that a certain set of slot machines will return xx% per $xx spent, even after counting the "jackpot" that's timed to go off when the system reaches a set range of cash.

So, yes the casino knows that they will make $xx but they don't care who wins or who loses or how much they win or lose.

So it is with Entropia.

  • They don't care who globals
  • They don't care who hofs
  • They don't care who makes money
  • They don't care who loses their shirt
  • They don't care whether your last run was profitable or not
  • They don't care

They don't care that Pham made money, or Pinky, or Skalman, or anybody. They don't care that Mags lost enough to buy a car, or some other bloke lost $50K.

In the end, the game is set up so that MA will make their xx% money at the end of the day. How the rest of it flows or lands is not their concern.

Consider this: If MA's system were so personal, how much staff would they have to hire to follow everyone around (invisibly of course). And how would the loot be calculated for folks playing during during off hours, or when Sweden is "on summer vacation"?

Frankly, having a system designed for personal control of loot distribution would be much more labor/system intensive then any rng insensitive system could be.

Also, if they wanted a system that could control how much loot each player got, then how could they possibly control resellers, or event marketers, or hairstylists, or any of the many other ways folks can earn ped ingame outside of the "big 3"?

I believe that brings us to the loot issue of control.

Obviously this is where MA does control the game. They decide what items are capable of dropping. The system doesn't just stop looting bear harnesses for no reason at all. Those items don't currently drop

MA controls
  1. What drops, from what type of mob, and how many
  2. What ores/enmatters and found and where
  3. What BPs drop, and how many

These 3 "entry points" let MA control what items are "in play". (Notice I didn't say "when". Again MA doesn't care if the system picks the 1 bear harness in the loot database to drop today, or next week. Well, actually, they can influence the timing, such as the large Isis drop occurring during this convention. But a "button" is not pushed when the right person hunts the right mob.) However, MA does NOT control how we use those items, or how much we pay for them.

Proof: The egg. Jon's purchase and placement of that item on CND has really put a wrench on what MA wanted to do with that part of the storyline.

And egg boy could have invested that ped wisely and made serious cash. Instead he gambled big and lost.

So, yes, the game is fairly simple (as far as MMORPGs go) and quite open. Ma controls what items are "in play", but what we do with them is our business.

Now let's see if I can answer certain specifics not already covered. I won't discuss the grammatical critiques you have, as I can basically agree with with them.

to "keep up with each individual session" would mean, in programming terms of course, to calculate a (one) "number", i call it the "luck factor", a result of a predefined "formula", every x seconds (or minutes), for every avatar... that is not too much for a system that already generates/calculates several "numbers" for every shoot (action) made within EU...
even if generating real time "numbers" for an unlimited amount of mobs in EU would be way harder (in programming terms) then assigning a "luck factor", every (lets say) 5 minutes, for a limited amount of avatars acting on EU at a given time...

1st, why would you possibly generate ever changing "luck factors"? What would that do to improve game performance or speed? Basic random numbers would do the exact same thing easier and with much less system stress.

Also, this "luck factor" would have to be a complex calculation of what I'm hunting, where and when.

I've had bad luck/good luck at the exact same time in the exact same location. Longu beach south of Twin. One day the sabas were looting great and the longu were looting very poorly. Guess which mob I quickly started avoiding? Another day, the situation was reversed, and I happily hunted longu and avoided sabas.

As for whether loot is calculated at the moment of mob spawning or during the looting process, I admit there is good argument either way.

However, can you tell me why it takes so long for mining claims or crafting results to come up, yet hunting loot seems to happen almost instantly? If loot is calculated the moment of looting (we can't assume loot is decided during the fight, since the outcome isn't guaranteed) why do these other actions take so damn long?

My guess is that the nature of mining/crafting doesn't allow loot batches to be predetermined. They have no way to know if I'm crafting basic filters on qty on condition, yet the loot changes quite a lot depending on the settings. The same is true with mining. Am I amped or not?

and what about the mobs that are looted in 1 month (or 6) from spawning?... how could the "dynamic" of the loot pool settle that delay?...

Actually, I think that helps my case, not hurt it. As I've mentioned before, I've often gone into far back places and quickly globalled. I've often got the impression I was picking up "left over" loot.

I must assume it's also possible for MA to remove items from the loot database so they are no longer available from then on.

Remember what happens to items left "dropped" during VUs and mini patches? Often they are removed. A purging occurs. The same occurs to mobs. I've been in places when the system had to be restarted. Upon logging back in, the mob count & location is quite different, even within my radar range. In short, that server flushed the mobs (and anything connected to them ) and had to "repopulate".

In conclusion
your (initial) post is a very nice presentation for EU ,witch, btw, i would expect to read in one of MA's official previews/reviews (that makes me wonder: what if...?),

You better not be trying to insinuate what it sounds like. :mad:

and witch still misses to explain some of the "hot issues" that all of us are experiencing every day... how about some "minor" details... such as the "ever lucky" ones that are always able to pick the right mob from the "random" herd... over and over...

You mean like the ones who seem always lucky at blackjack or roulette? Or like the way I went from a lousy hunt to looting a +200 item just by changing what I hunted? Luck is luck, mate. It doesn't require some "generated luck factor".

a slighty alteration to your last phrase and we have the truth:
Because of what and how much MA allows to be looted, this game is really in their control... witch, given the fact that they are "in business to make money" is normal and after all isn't such a bad thing... for as long as they would keep those "hot issues" fair and decent...

I have no problem with this. As I said, MA is indeed in control of what drops. They simply aren't in control with what we do with it once it does.

I looted an ESI worth 1k Peds. I could've kept it, used it to sell some skills, buy a ep-41, a madd IV+Beast, or maybe some 5Bs.

The choice of what to do with that item was mine, not MAs, and my choices influence my results.

Many think MA gave that ruga hof to Dub. How would they have known Dub would win that item in an auction, invest in chipping skills, and run though known ruga fields?

Or do they mean that they would've done that for whoever bought "Bessie"?

Either way, it don't sound too personal. Sounds kinda random. :D
 
First, the first post and the one above are, well, uber-long. Nonetheless very informative. +rep on those

I don't know if this information is important to any logic or algorithm or theory but I started to hunt Cornundacaudas (spelling?) Mature and it takes longer after killing one for the loot window to come up as compared to e.g. Exas and other small mobs.

Would that imply that there are different loot algorithms out there? Like mob-type A, B, C use loot-algo 1, D, E, F use 2, ...? So loot-algo won't cause large HOFs or ATH. Or was that just a coincidence? That small if() or function-pointers, delegates, ... would be easy to code and need close to no CPU-time.
 
I don't know if this information is important to any logic or algorithm or theory but I started to hunt Cornundacaudas (spelling?) Mature and it takes longer after killing one for the loot window to come up as compared to e.g. Exas and other small mobs.

Would that imply that there are different loot algorithms out there?

I think you have a point there, when I'm killing cornun's, the loot window appears quick with young maturity levels, but there seems to be a delay with older maturity levels...
 
It's not a big deal, since it's the easiest part of the game to understand, but at least it's nice to get some specifics.

Yes, once a hit is confirmed, a body part is allocated based on various data. Then the damage and the armor value are calculated and the final damage applied. Armor doesn’t (at least not today) affect the chance of scoring a hit or not, only how much damage is reduced if the hit hits a body part covered by armor.

This was in reply to questions about whether the new 7th armor piece would affect hit/miss percentages. (I.E. would we now get hit more often since we have 7 pieces instead of 6?)

Doer said:
Will foot guards take hits that would have hit another armor part before, or will they take hits that would have missed before?
 
Wow dont know how I missed this before ... so much in here that I agree with 100%, even the way they are worded sounds just right. :thumbup:

+rep
 
+rep
:wise:

I will read it more often than once, I guess.
:)
 
ok, and how do traders fit into it? there are players who make 100's of peds per day trading (no joke) and withdraw heavily. i know that trade is based mainly on added value and tt is left unaffected but let's think about a situation when 50% of players start trading only? what do you think happens then?
 
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