I think it is about time to update the mob AI (well long overdue actually!!)

[Hagbard Celine]

Hi all, first let me say that I've been here for a good 1andahalf year and I really love this game, but...
Lately I kind of find it hard to find motivation to log in, as i find that my skilling-up is worth shit to put it mildly.
First I have maxed LR-53, Apis (maybe the next too) and the Kilic Vass and I'm getting to a point where I can not afford the MU on the next weapon on the ladder, so there is no incentive except more HP. But that is not the main issue, the mob AI is:

1. We have mobs spawning inside buildings/stones/trees/you name it.
2. We have mobs regularly committing suicide by drowning.
3. We have mobs getting stuck in trees/stones/o.l. when we attack them, thus becoming UNREACHABLE.
4. We have mobs getting stuck in each-other, thus becoming UNREACHABLE.
5. We have mobs that by some unseen reason are UNREACHABLE at first shot.
6. And last but not least we do actually have mobs that become UNREACHABLE because we are too skilled in Evader/Dodger and; walk backwards while being lucky on the mob attacks or if we stand still and get extremely lucky on the mob hits.
A log of my support case (15043-7951) about the last issue is in this thread (going to update the first post with the whole case in a minute)

I find this totally unacceptable, and it really kills the joy of the game. So I want to repeat my request from the other thread (and extend it to all cases of mob AI ruining gameplay) for everyone to send support requests!
Feel free to refer to my case and/or link to these two threads.

 

[Torschen]

Did not know they have any kind of AI at all lol.

 

[ranpha]

Euh wouldnt that be more that MA need to review the spawning system rather then A.I seeing your complaining.

Tho what I love to see is a more nature behaving A.I. that you see them grass, drink, fight amonst each other. Maybe a pack of trox attacking an eomon. other then that I dont fidn the current A.I. that bad. I do have the occiasion #*)$*# when a trox nearby runs towards an other hunter who globals on it but heck the same happend vica versa also.

But coding a A.I. is a real tough job. I though I read that Cryengine 3 focuses on a real A.I. that ducks , runs to cover etc. tho one should remember that we have a MMO here and some things work different then in FPS games.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Euh wouldnt that be more that MA need to review the spawning system rather then A.I seeing your complaining.

Tho what I love to see is a more nature behaving A.I. that you see them grass, drink, fight amonst each other. Maybe a pack of trox attacking an eomon. other then that I dont fidn the current A.I. that bad. I do have the occiasion #*)$*# when a trox nearby runs towards an other hunter who globals on it but heck the same happend vica versa also.

But coding a A.I. is a real tough job. I though I read that Cryengine 3 focuses on a real A.I. that ducks , runs to cover etc. tho one should remember that we have a MMO here and some things work different then in FPS games.

Well, there is just one point on my list that relates more to spawning system than to AI and that's no. 1 the other five are only AI related.

As to the cryengine; I really belived this before the VU 10 update: That we at-least would get new spawning-routines with the cryengine to avoid mobs spawning in trees o.l. ,and maybe even a AI update..
Boy was I stupid

 

[Torschen]

I dont fidn the current A.I. that bad.

The mobs can't run around a simple TREE ?? They can only run towards you, or limp away from you. One must go back to year 1998 games to find as nonexistent capabilities to understand ones surrounding. Actually, even back then Unreal had AI way more advanced that present day EU.

 

[huju]

I havnt been around in this game no longer than 1 year, but i can allready see where this is leading.

crowd 1:
Really wants mob AI to be updated.
crowd 2:
Really DOES NOT want mob AI to be updated.

Now MindArk has to make the difficult decision between pleasuring these two crowds. Lets expect that they release the update to update AI to "present day" standards where mob knows how to dodge trees, stones and dosnt drown them selfs.
Crowd 1 is pleased and goes wild
How ever crowd 2 starts crying about vu 4.2 engine how they abused merps getting stuck to opalos flying in space. How many times you have teleported to a mob herd with teleport chip to realise it was a bad spot and drowned 6 mobs wich rushed to you? Now the mobs just waits you by the shore. Ofcourse player from crowd 1 would use his/hers tp chip again and think its good they stayed alive, but player from crowd 2 starts yet another thread to this forum telling us how mutch this game actually sucks .

If i would sum this message up, i dont think mindarks AI is what it is becouse of technical reasons, but becouse they doesnt dare to update it in fear of people from vu -2.6 teling that their cat was actually a bit fatter around then.

I wonder how Marco deals with this crap? Maby he has Xanax recept?

Edit: Oh... and i cant refuse myself to talk about AI from 1994/1995 from game "Transport Tycoon (Deluxe)". That stuff was awesome.

 

[SpikeBlack]

This was discussed a few months ago.

Should-creature-AI-be-enhanced

and my response

Should-creature-AI-be-enhanced#post2538904

there's a reason its so simple, to make the backend coding simple and reduce the processing required. On a standalone server with only a few players its possible but with EU its far far more complicated.

 

[Dan59]

PE had some mobs with cool AI.
But MA removed some.
Generic problem is server load and average user connection and abilities of his pc.
More AI - usualy mean more lag and harder work for MA servers as for client computers.

I have seen in old PE fights between two umbranoids , figts between trox and robots, trox and ara, ara and tants ., two pupugy fiights ...

If MA do it now in EU we will probably have wery big lag.

** But to change nowdays mob agro behaviour where mob run almost out of radar to another hunter shud be on top of MA to do list.

 

[ranpha]

I have seen in old PE fights between two umbranoids , figts between trox and robots, trox and ara, ara and tants ., two pupugy fiights ...

t.

See I knew it wasnt a dream I had , thnx for confirming this drove me crazy

 

[Tomkat]

People complained about people hunting trapped mobs, so they could hunt above the level,
it got put out so the mobs got more sensitive about them being stuck.

I think it got fixed good, because in the early nerf stage the mobs got sooooooo sensitive had to do nothing and they got stuck, (or they did not fix it and I just got used to it?), what I like to say, get used to it, if your problem is solved another problem shows up, its not about the AI of the mobs, more like remove the place they can get stuck.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

People complained about people hunting trapped mobs, so they could hunt above the level,
it got put out so the mobs got more sensitive about them being stuck.

I think it got fixed good, because in the early nerf stage the mobs got sooooooo sensitive had to do nothing and they got stuck, (or they did not fix it and I just got used to it?), what I like to say, get used to it, if your problem is solved another problem shows up, its not about the AI of the mobs, more like remove the place they can get stuck.

My main problem is more about the AI because the mobs get UNREACHABLE just because they fail to hit me while not being stuck.

 

[huju]

My main problem is more about the AI because the mobs get UNREACHABLE just because they fail to hit me while not being stuck.

Hmm... Yeah...

I think I can see the problem. If I have understood right unreachable condition comes to a mob when they cannot reach you while approaching. If theres a mob inside a tree/rock and it attacks to you when you go close enough, but becouse the mobile is stuck, it cannot move. During the AI's multiple stages and amazing code lines (1. attack 2. stay still) the AI can judge how long it should take to reach you from the distance and mobs speed and most importantly if it cannot attack you. The unreachable state as far as i have understood is broken when mob can hit you. Even the mob is spawned in side the tree or rock, you can kill it by standing so close to the tree, it can hit you trough it.

This brings us to the problem wich i am not sure but i think may be pissing you. So lets say i am hunting argonauts at twin peaks and a argo gets stuck to the tree, it goes to unreachable stage just becouse it cannot do 1m "circle" around the tree. As i earlier explained how the unreachable status is broken, this never happens if i leave the spawn. Now theres one argonaut with unreachable status altough it isnt stuck anymore to the tree between me and it becouse i left. mm.. right? So now Celine comes and starts shooting to it with hes expensive gun and loses ammo + decay for it becouse its in unreachable stage, and you have to wait it to hit you for it to become "reachable".

Earlier this year MindArk released a versionupdate to make some of the trees and rocks "walktrough". I dont know if this has something to do people making mobiles to get stuck to rocks and shooting them trough the tree or rock in wich it is stuck. As far as i can think atm, you still can shoot trough tree altough you coldnt walk trough it.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

That is also a good point, but not my main problem winch is described in detail in this thread.

 

[Brumle]

Tho what I love to see is a more nature behaving A.I. that you see them grass, drink, fight amonst each other. Maybe a pack of trox attacking an eomon.

we had that in the old days with hogglo vs trox...

was funny to see a hogglo eating a few troxies

 

[Rikky]

What i really hate is when the mobs agro someone else on the radar instead of me, or when I suddenly get attacked by another persons mob who happens to be in my radar.
This creates alot more decay and time consumation.
I try to run away when I see soneone on my radar when Im hunting.

 

[JoseMTacoral]

Something similar happened to me in Cape Corinth. I launched an attack on a Harbinger, when it began to come to me I began to recede. At one point, without there being nothing between us, I started getting the message "unreachable" for at least three shots. Meanwhile Harbi was attacking me. Finally returned the damage messages I and could continue the hunt. I did not think much about it until I read this post.

 

[AtamiKiangola]

and time to increase the support AI too

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Something similar happened to me in Cape Corinth. I launched an attack on a Harbinger, when it began to come to me I began to recede. At one point, without there being nothing between us, I started getting the message "unreachable" for at least three shots. Meanwhile Harbi was attacking me. Finally returned the damage messages I and could continue the hunt. I did not think much about it until I read this post.

Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Please DO send a support-case about it.

 

[Terminator]

There are several AI issues and unless they are not listed, the answers in this thread wont be efficient.
- Mobs geting stuck -> Allow mobs crossing obstacles as before CE2 (assuming its too hard to code correct AI)
- Mobs aggroed by other player -> Thats a bug, it can and must be fixed.
- Mobs going away when theyre at 10% -> Thats a bug too, only tameable mobs should have this behaviour, not big ones. To be fixed.


I remember "Red Alert" and other strategy games, 10 or 20 years ago, the AI was very good implemented. Where are these developers gone now? Why younger developer generations dont know how to code more than adding a 3D tree on a 3D field in a 3D design software?

 

[Aura Lily]

What i really hate is when the mobs agro someone else on the radar instead of me, or when I suddenly get attacked by another persons mob who happens to be in my radar.
This creates alot more decay and time consumation.
I try to run away when I see soneone on my radar when Im hunting.

The arrgo on another player AI attribute has been in use on CP for quite a while. At first it made hunting there difficult for me as it seemed like everytime someone else entered the dome all the mobs would arrgo on me. After I got used to this and expected it I had the choice to fap more till the mobs got bored with munching on me and ran off to another greendot or try to kill as many as I could before secumbing to their onslaught. But now it seems typical that as soon as one mob would approach me another would leave for the other player.

So it sort of balances out. Makes hunting a bit more unpredictable and exciting. Now that this AI attribute has been applied to other mobs it will take a bit of time to get used to it and expect it. When you are in especially dense mobs spawns you can count on exchanging mobs between yourself and the other green dot on the mobs radar.

The only time this is gets to be annoying is when someone does a drive by with long train of mobs chasing their vehicle and 1/2 of them decide that me being a stationary target is more tasty than the rolling one. This has happened to me a few times. If its a big mob or a huge swarm, i drop armor and let them kill me and come back to them at a safe distance to resume hunting.

So for me it is neither good nor bad. Just a thing to be dealt with.

The unreachable message on mobs is for me a decay maker. Many of the mobs can still hit me while i can do no damage to them. This doesn't seem fair. If the stinklie thing is in an unreachable state it should not beable to "reach" me either.

Mobs running away when near death makes me think they all share exausaur dna or something. I remember those wussy things trying to flee when i first started huning.

 

[tamlin]

The unreachable message on mobs is for me a decay maker. Many of the mobs can still hit me while i can do no damage to them.

Indeed. I'd even claim this is fraud. When you pay for something and don't get the service you pay for, especially when it is by design and thereby intentional, that is fraud.

Had it been accidental it would "only" have been neglience. At the current frequency it would probably have to be called criminal neglience. But as it's intentional, I don't see how it could be anything but fraud.

Compare it to paying for something IRL, let's say a car, but you don't get the car. The one claiming to sell the car just silently takes your money without even bothering to say thank you, much less give you the car you paid for (in this case - I'm not talking about the 10% MA is skimming due to "missed shots"). I think this is a valid analogy for paying for the ammo+decay in EU, but not getting anything for it. The values may differ, but the fact remains.

 

[huju]

I have to disagree!

If you had no unreachable status this would be profit maker when you could stuck the mob to a tree (CURRENTLY WITH THIS AI) and avoid defense costs.
This is no fraud, its just a sollution to avoid bugabuse becouse the ai sucks.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

I have to disagree!

If you had no unreachable status this would be profit maker when you could stuck the mob to a tree (CURRENTLY WITH THIS AI) and avoid defense costs.
This is no fraud, its just a sollution to avoid bugabuse becouse the ai sucks.

Well, when they get UNREACHABLE while not stuck, just because they can not hit us due to skills and lucky-rolls-on-the-dice I would consider that to be at the border of fraud to put it mildly. The more defense skills you got, the bigger are the chances of the mob getting UNREACHABLE because it can't hit you....

 

[huju]

Yes, i know that if you read my earlier posts. And if you read again my posts and think what i said i hope you understand my point wich i was trying to make.

The unreachable status sucks becouse it is faulty with crappy ai but it is there to prevent bug abuse wich is even more problematic than one shot wasted to unreachable status. It is a choise between two bad options, between bugabuse or unreachable status.

 

[tamlin]

The unreachable status sucks becouse it is faulty with crappy ai but it is there to prevent bug abuse wich is even more problematic

So due to Mindark being incompetent, you say it's OK for them to take our property without consent?

You wouldn't happen to have a background as a corporate lawyer?

 

[huju]

You dont need to attack me on personal level just becouse we disagree on this matter.

How ever, in wich case i did say i wouldnt like the ai to be changed so the mobs could walk around the rocks and trees or its ok for them to collect decay from that? I said its better than bugabuse.

I would like to take for you personally an example from irl life since you seem to have hard time understanding. Lets say a man and a woman is married, the man drinks a lot and sometimes hits her wife. Theres two options. Either they divorce or they keep living together. Anyway both of these options are bad. Then theres thirth option when we live in utopia where is no alcohol abuse or domestic violance.

 

[tamlin]

You dont need to attack me on personal level just becouse we disagree on this matter.

That was not my intention. As that's apparently how it was read, I apologize. I meant the part about "corporate lawyer" as a joke, only I figured it was so obvious I didn't bother to add a smiley. Again, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

How ever, in wich case i did say i wouldnt like the ai to be changed so the mobs could walk around the rocks and trees or its ok for them to collect decay from that? I said its better than bugabuse.

And here we disagree. Mindark is the party creating the current situation/problem. Instead of solving it, they steal money from us! I am of the firm stance that they are NOT allowed to take my money without consent. When their incompetence screws them over, that's their own fault. When INSTEAD of taking responsibility they FORCE the customers to pay for their errors (with not any intent in sight of fixing their own cock-ups), that's fraud.

Two wrongs does not make one right.

I would like to take for you personally an example from irl life since you seem to have hard time understanding.

After those words, I think you may be the last person to speak about ad hominem again.

Lets say a man and a woman is married, the man drinks a lot and sometimes hits her wife. Theres two options. Either they divorce or they keep living together. Anyway both of these options are bad. Then theres thirth option when we live in utopia where is no alcohol abuse or domestic violance.

IMO she should call the police, have him thrown in jail, and get some money for the abuse. He would spend time in jail to consider his crimes, and be forced to go to therapy.

A fourth (outside the law) option also exists. It involves money being paid by the abuser to the abused (for damages, the same way the law works), but the punishment could involve what in comparison would make prison time seem pretty cozy. I do not endorse trying to use this as a solution as a first step. It does not belong as a first step in a modern society.

As Mindark in this little story of yours is the abusive husband, and its customers are the beaten wife (the opposite obviously is impossible), what are you saying - deal with the abuse or piss off?

 

[huju]

Well i think this conversation leads nowhere... AI should be redone after the implement of new engine has been done, it should not delay beacons or animal taming for example. The technical difficulties are something wich i am not familair with but i am sure the guys knew what they was talking about. EU being heavy game allready i can see where that leads... more whining...

 

[Nicole]

Yes, i know that if you read my earlier posts. And if you read again my posts and think what i said i hope you understand my point wich i was trying to make.

The unreachable status sucks becouse it is faulty with crappy ai but it is there to prevent bug abuse wich is even more problematic than one shot wasted to unreachable status. It is a choise between two bad options, between bugabuse or unreachable status.

I think the best solution is that the ammo should also be returned, its a no brainer MA that this should have been done with out any one having to tell you this!

 

[Slaiine]

You dont need to attack me on personal level just becouse we disagree on this matter.

How ever, in wich case i did say i wouldnt like the ai to be changed so the mobs could walk around the rocks and trees or its ok for them to collect decay from that? I said its better than bugabuse.

I would like to take for you personally an example from irl life since you seem to have hard time understanding. Lets say a man and a woman is married, the man drinks a lot and sometimes hits her wife. Theres two options. Either they divorce or they keep living together. Anyway both of these options are bad. Then theres thirth option when we live in utopia where is no alcohol abuse or domestic violance.

uh...yeah...