Mining Return Dynamics

[Arm]

What is the role of following on mining find size and on mining skills gained, if you know or can reasonably guess:

1. Finder decay
2. Excavator decay (if not returned even in form of skills, what is the logic behind using non-tt excavator? Just speed?)
3. Previous find sizes, specially recent ones
4. Tax and Amp MU, also Finder MU (higher chance of SOOTO or rare minerals to make up for the MU investment on Amp etc? Seems fair if already done by MA and unfair if not done already)
5. HOF/ATH in Hunting or Crafting
6. Time (HOF waves?)
7. Planet (changing planet changes mining return by random? Total cycled peds in mining in the planet in a specific time duration, say last week or month?)
8. Amp and finder used other than the probe/amp cost (the amp most people use is better or the one they rarely use? ...?)
9. Previous mining loss (loot pool idea vs. chance. Chance can create an indirect loot pool, as given what has been found, you may have higher chance or lower chance of good find)
10. The ped cycled in a mining journey (not over long time)
11. UNMAXED FINDER
12. ...

(and we know location is important)

Any MA post on mining return formula?

 

[Arm]

Any changes recently, for example after Loot 2.0?

 

[M Rufen Power]

I am having a hard time understanding your post as a full-time miner...
Why not just drop probes and see the results like most normal people?

Why do you specifically want to know the mining return formula? I don't get it.

Afaik, mining overall has become less volatile, compared to the mining hay day.
Not sure what Pre-Loot or Post-Loot 2.0 had to do with the changes if anything.

From my POV, finder/extractor costs get returned at a less optimal rate, like armour/fap in hunting.
Probe and amp costs are returned with immediate effect, same as gun/amp/ammo does in hunting.

Overall I'd just say get out there and mine, the return rate isn't important.
Having said all that, I know a method to increase your TT returns over time.
My TT returns on mining are around 106% but that could change in a flash.

 

[Arm]

I cycled about 3k yesterday in mining, I do mine but checking theories and determining the role of mining variables need the community or MA for testing/confirmation. Here we can gather the various theories and mining variable roles, according to various players or MA.

 

[M Rufen Power]

I cycled about 3k yesterday in mining, I do mine but checking theories and determining the role of mining variables need the community or MA for testing/confirmation. Here we can gather the various theories and mining variable roles, according to various players or MA.

Right, well good luck with all of that. I'm out.

 

[Arm]

Right, well good luck with all of that. I'm out.

The part where you said "From my POV, finder/extractor costs get returned at a less optimal rate, like armour/fap in hunting.
Probe and amp costs are returned with immediate effect, same as gun/amp/ammo does in hunting." was useful, thank you.

 

[warmdogg]

Right, well good luck with all of that. I'm out.

I remember when you used to help players , you ok mate?

 

[Granny Rowan]

2. Excavator, Most people that use UL excavators do so for speed. I certainly do, especially on larger claims

4. I can see no reason why, let alone mechanics for doing it, for MA to take MU and tax on finders and amps into account. They would need to track every transaction you made, on AH, in a shop or P2P sales, calc the MU, and then apply it IF and WHEN you use it, part use it etc Also ofc track you to see if you simply trade it to a third party.
MU is therefore wholly your problem as a miner. You have to ensure you buy your kit at a reasonable MU, and mine things that will return that MU.

5. HOF/ATH in other professions should according to MA have no effect, they have repeatedly said the loot pools for the 3 professions are separate.

8. Amps and to some extent Finders are according to most miners I chat to and also in my own experience a matter of personal preference and balamce.
To a large extent it will depend on what you are mining and where, as to which finder is best suited (think depth etc) As for amps 2 people with near identical set ups may choose different amps, and both claim it works best for them. I personally hate D-Class yet many love them. Also remember some resources are almost never found amped.

So as Rufen said, get out there and mine, keep your own records and work out which set up works best for YOU., and in which situations. Re-assess as your skills grow. Most miners have 2 or 3 set ups on the go.
If there was an ideal set up, for all skill levels, locations, etc then we would all use it, the MU would go through the roof, and the rest of us could pack up our gear and go home

 

[crazyqpp]

I am having a hard time understanding your post as a full-time miner...
Why not just drop probes and see the results like most normal people?

Why do you specifically want to know the mining return formula? I don't get it.

Afaik, mining overall has become less volatile, compared to the mining hay day.
Not sure what Pre-Loot or Post-Loot 2.0 had to do with the changes if anything.

From my POV, finder/extractor costs get returned at a less optimal rate, like armour/fap in hunting.
Probe and amp costs are returned with immediate effect, same as gun/amp/ammo does in hunting.

Overall I'd just say get out there and mine, the return rate isn't important.
Having said all that, I know a method to increase your TT returns over time.
My TT returns on mining are around 106% but that could change in a flash.

106% could be a really short run or a decent enough run with a good hit or loot coming back from other professions. But once you will look at numbers after 10,000 drops regardless of how much tt you spend each drop. You will be at 93 to 96% tt return. That is without mixing with other professions. Without enhancers. Range enhancers will increase your hit rate but we could never determine if they effected tt returns. Never could find enough enhancers. Also one many loot theories that people believe needs you to double drop. That will effect your tt return badly. Yes you can get 2 claims on same spot. But on avg hit rate of 15-28% if you double drop on all claims you will lose alot. We dont even know if those peds come back. Best way is to do an area once every 2 hours. Than check your avg mark up of all loot. Find the areas with most avg mark up and do them. No it does not effect your loot if someone else has already been there recently. Yes it does drop your hit rate dramatically if you start running behind someone. But if nobody is in radar you are safe. And skills are just skills. No skill gain means there is an ATH hiding near by. Use the finder information. Use the map cordinates. Map the area with different depth finders. Make notes.

 

[Arm]

x

106% could be a really short run or a decent enough run with a good hit or loot coming back from other professions. But once you will look at numbers after 10,000 drops regardless of how much tt you spend each drop. You will be at 93 to 96% tt return. That is without mixing with other professions. Without enhancers. Range enhancers will increase your hit rate but we could never determine if they effected tt returns. Never could find enough enhancers. Also one many loot theories that people believe needs you to double drop. That will effect your tt return badly. Yes you can get 2 claims on same spot. But on avg hit rate of 15-28% if you double drop on all claims you will lose alot. We dont even know if those peds come back. Best way is to do an area once every 2 hours. Than check your avg mark up of all loot. Find the areas with most avg mark up and do them. No it does not effect your loot if someone else has already been there recently. Yes it does drop your hit rate dramatically if you start running behind someone. But if nobody is in radar you are safe. And skills are just skills. No skill gain means there is an ATH hiding near by. Use the finder information. Use the map cordinates. Map the area with different depth finders. Make notes.

Thanks everybody,

"No skill gain means there is an ATH hiding near by."

Any further elaboration? Source of this theory? Other further details?

 

[M Rufen Power]

I remember when you used to help players , you ok mate?

It's life mate, too much going on for me atm to have these debates.

 

[M Rufen Power]

106% could be a really short run or a decent enough run with a good hit or loot coming back from other professions. But once you will look at numbers after 10,000 drops regardless of how much tt you spend each drop. You will be at 93 to 96% tt return. That is without mixing with other professions.

I'm already on 7600 drops, I am sure I will keep the % this high for the next 2400 drops left to go. I know returns fluctuate, but I have never experienced 96% let alone 93% TT returns. Other professions have no effect on other loot pools, that will come from other players interacting in the same location.

Without enhancers. Range enhancers will increase your hit rate but we could never determine if they effected tt returns. Never could find enough enhancers.

So you're advocating not to use range enhs, why? Because you feel you can't accurately gauge the TT returns that come from using them? Why would MA create an enh that can alter your base TT returns? That doesn't make sense to me. If it can alter hit rates, that's already in the right direction. I actually don't mind what my hit rate is, because I already know it is already higher than most, but the TT returns just come from consistent and efficient dropping.

Also one many loot theories that people believe needs you to double drop. That will effect your tt return badly. Yes you can get 2 claims on same spot. But on avg hit rate of 15-28% if you double drop on all claims you will lose alot. We dont even know if those peds come back. Best way is to do an area once every 2 hours. Than check your avg mark up of all loot.

I personally am against double dropping, unless my auto function key malfunctions, if that's the case, I will ensure I'm moving in a certain direction instead of standing still waiting for a claim, I've had more hits whilst MOVING, than standing still, that I know is more true than double dropping at nearby claims.

Find the areas with most avg mark up and do them. No it does not effect your loot if someone else has already been there recently.

Correct. However, it can still affect which minerals can be found in the area if certain resources are capped and have already been found.

Yes it does drop your hit rate dramatically if you start running behind someone. But if nobody is in radar you are safe.

Correct. I follow my own path, even if there is another miner in my face, I will continue following my path and drop without a second thought.

And skills are just skills. No skill gain means there is an ATH hiding near by. Use the finder information. Use the map cordinates. Map the area with different depth finders. Make notes.

All correct. Use the right avg depth for the required materials, and use coordinates to track where you are dropping your probes to the dot.

One of the things that have helped my TT returns thus far, is knowing when you're hitting a claim spell, run like the wind until it dries up, then excavate.
More times than not, when I don't carpet bomb, I lose out more on that run. Carpet bombing during a claim spell can trigger decent-sized globals etc.

 

[kingofaces]

On finder decay, hit rate near other miners, etc. read the posts in my sig.

For excavators, there’s no reason to assume those costs are returned “directly” because those costs are incurred after the loot amount is set in your claim. If MA tweaks the return formula slightly to compensate a little for average costs, it is unknown, but again, unlikely to expect any scaling by excavator cost, just a flat amount if any. In either case, changing your excavator is unlikely to affect claim size.

 

[kingofaces]

So you're advocating not to use range enhs, why?

If the mechanics are they same as how indoors works, larger radius would mean smaller TT claims. Could be you come out ahead, it’s a wash for normal mining, or there are niche uses. It’s a mechanic that still needs to be tested with those enhancers.

There are a lot of possibilities, but the MU makes it tough to see it pencil out. At least as far as testing has gone for me, there’s been much lower hanging fruit.

 

[Barmonk]

t, they have repeatedly said the loot pools for the 3 professions are separate.

Where?

 

[DrGirlfriend]

Where?

Repeatedly that’s where!

 

[crazyqpp]

x

Thanks everybody,

"No skill gain means there is an ATH hiding near by."

Any further elaboration? Source of this theory? Other further details?

Read it again. What i meant was there is not any skill gain that means there is guaranteed claim nearby. Skill gains are just skill gains. I think you took the opposite meaning.

 

[M Rufen Power]

I think the skill gain theory, was people clutching at straws to find an answer they didn't know how to locate.

 

[Arm]

"Read it again. What i meant was there is not any skill gain that means there is guaranteed claim nearby. Skill gains are just skill gains. I think you took the opposite meaning. "

Yes, if you take "no skill gain" as a phrase, if means quite differently

 

[Barmonk]

HOF/ATH in other professions should according to MA have no effect, they have repeatedly said the loot pools for the 3 professions are separate.

Can someone show me where MA stated this?

 

[Barmonk]

No skill gain means there is an ATH hiding near by.

Which loot pool

 

[crazyqpp]

Can someone show me where MA stated this?

i would like to know that too

 

[Granny Rowan]

re loot pools, here is one quote there are others, but I am sure I dont need to waste time looking for them, you can do that yourselves. This one is pretty definitive.

Bertha Bot;2946079 [B said:
Independent Lootpools[/B] - One concern that we see very often on community forums, especially when a big All Time High is achieved, is that one profession is unfairly “financing” a huge loot in another profession. This misconception often results in one group of participants (i.e. hunters) becoming upset or frustrated that their activity is being used to fund the rewards given to another group of participants (i.e. miners). To hopefully dispel this misconception, we would like to inform participants that the loot pools for each main profession (hunting, mining and manufacturing) are completely independent of one another, and that a large loot in one profession has absolutely no impact on potential loots in any of the other professions.

 

[Barmonk]

From when is this, can you link pls

 

[crazyqpp]

re loot pools, here is one quote there are others, but I am sure I dont need to waste time looking for them, you can do that yourselves. This one is pretty definitive.

Bertha Bot;2946079 [B said:
Independent Lootpools[/B] - One concern that we see very often on community forums, especially when a big All Time High is achieved, is that one profession is unfairly “financing” a huge loot in another profession. This misconception often results in one group of participants (i.e. hunters) becoming upset or frustrated that their activity is being used to fund the rewards given to another group of participants (i.e. miners). To hopefully dispel this misconception, we would like to inform participants that the loot pools for each main profession (hunting, mining and manufacturing) are completely independent of one another, and that a large loot in one profession has absolutely no impact on potential loots in any of the other professions.

Thank you. appreciate you taking the time to find it Been away couple of years. missed alot.

 

[Arm]

Thank you. appreciate you taking the time to find it Been away couple of years. missed alot.

I do both hunting and mining.

For some time I did not know that MU was lost (namely not returned in tt), I spent much on big amps and luckily (in fact unluckily!) hit a 14k tower on foma which retuned the tt plus MU amount which made me think MU was being returned in tt. Then I was down tens of k in mining (about approx 100k in MU, about approx 50k in tt which I anticipate in an ATH).

I was also down in hunting and last year I hit a hunting ATH which turned hunting into profit.

Currently, I heavily do amped mining (but not much 75x, 80x and 100x amp as before, I usually use around 20x and sometimes 60x) in foma/ark/monria/caly/... .

If my hunting ATH was not coming from mining (at least partially), which is almost (not exactly of course) what you quote from MA, I should most probably see a mining ATH (or near) and it may already be overdue statistically? (I am about 50k back in mining tt, and about 75k-100k in mining MU. I am in profit in hunting, and also in bit of crafting I did which was several thousands of ped cycling)

I used to think that hunting ATH has something to do with the mining loss.

I know there are other possibilities (chance, ...), but a mining ATH for me seems like a confirmation of what quoted from MA. I got an 8k tower few weeks ago and the system took a revenge of 20k loss in the following weeks as if it knows it should lower the chance (no personal loot pool? Yes, I have heard it too, but what if it happens in form of lowering the chance when you hit big? Or other indirect mechanism?)!

 

[Arm]

Hey MA, I am about 75k-100k back in mining MU, feeding the hungry amp crafters, is it too much for the limited number of players like me to get a decent UL gun/excavator/amp or mining ring/boxes or castle/shop/house or few Rare Tokens (in gold/redulite cyclings i do)? Something which does not affect the economy TOO much but justifies bravery and thus enforces the economy in another way



I will try to inform others here if I get one this year. Can contribute to the bravery and thus the economy

There should be an MU loot/sale/loss pool for people who are down in MU all in all (UL/non-tradable rewards, maybe half of the MU-negative-equity/MU-loss), I know it is going to be complex to implement but it will be worth it.

 

[Barmonk]

This makes the game gambling no mather what some shady guys might say

 

[Arm]

I do both hunting and mining.

For some time I did not know that MU was lost (namely not returned in tt), I spent much on big amps and luckily (in fact unluckily!) hit a 14k tower on foma which retuned the tt plus MU amount which made me think MU was being returned in tt. Then I was down tens of k in mining (about approx 100k in MU, about approx 50k in tt which I anticipate in an ATH).

I was also down in hunting and last year I hit a hunting ATH which turned hunting into profit.

Currently, I heavily do amped mining (but not much 75x, 80x and 100x amp as before, I usually use around 20x and sometimes 60x) in foma/ark/monria/caly/... .

If my hunting ATH was not coming from mining (at least partially), which is almost (not exactly of course) what you quote from MA, I should most probably see a mining ATH (or near) and it may already be overdue statistically? (I am about 50k back in mining tt, and about 75k-100k in mining MU. I am in profit in hunting, and also in bit of crafting I did which was several thousands of ped cycling)

I used to think that hunting ATH has something to do with the mining loss.

I know there are other possibilities (chance, ...), but a mining ATH for me seems like a confirmation of what quoted from MA. I got an 8k tower few weeks ago and the system took a revenge of 20k loss in the following weeks as if it knows it should lower the chance (no personal loot pool? Yes, I have heard it too, but what if it happens in form of lowering the chance when you hit big? Or other indirect mechanism?)!

Anyway, there's a chance the personal loot pool and connection of the three professions and the revenge after HOF/ATH happen in an indirect statistical way. Most of us including me do not have the time to test and theorize much about the game, though.

For me, the revenge after mining HOF has been too sharp and frequent to ignore (~8k tower after a long time, ~20k down in mining tt in few weeks!). Maybe it is not by chance. Any (many?) other player(s) share this experience?

 

[Arm]

This makes the game gambling no mather what some shady guys might say

Seems that: gambling does not have a pool, other than a statistical ~85% return or lower (apparently fruit machines in Netherlands do 85%). If MA implements decent pools including for MU, and everybody experiences over 95 percent return in the long run (including non-tradable items for 95 percent of MU loss, for example), and if Unreal Engine is implemented decently, it won't be gambling (and legally it does not seem as gambling to authorities even now I guess, otherwise it would have consequences).

The game can become fair and more popular (using this trick and other tricks, such as enabling teleworking. I have ideas, if not innovations, in this regards).

Once discussed part of the ideas with the president (Jon Neverdie Jacobs). He vanished without tangible follow up (or vanished totally?). When I joined EU, I was hopeful I could create jobs here, but it is too soon, the platform is not that ready, yet.