FYI: Player's Notes vol. 1 - Hunting Loot Mechanics

[Ned Flanders]

Let me say this one more time, everybody now, big shout:

HP IS THE ONLY THING WHICH AFFECTS TT LOOT.

The whole point of this thread is to try to work out exactly how the multipliers are aligned with said hp=loot.

Can you prove it? Do you have statistics from using no/low/medium/high decay armor and have you tried every type of weapon ingame, with different DPP and Dps stats so you can be sure that it is only HP (and possibly regen) that affects loot.

I do admit I was unclear in my previous post regarding blp vs laser, what I forgot to mention was the fact that the blp weapons used had much lower DPP than laser weapons I used, and I believe that to be taken into consideration when looting. So there aren't more globals and hofs for blp users, just because they use blp, but because the DPP of their weapon is so low that they need the compensation.

(Done the baby trox event a couple of times now and most of the time it is the same people who get the globals/hofs, and 9 out of 10 times that person uses a blp with low DPP and yes it is the dpp not the dps (killrate) that lets them global so many times during an event where there are 30-40 other people who go without a single global. Reason that I don't think it the killrate is because I have same or higher dps than most of the people getting the globals (unless they are lying about their weapon setup for some reason).

There has to be more factors than hp and hpregen that affects the loot system, becuse if it only was those twqo factors it would be a too simple system and someone would have figured it out by now. Loot system is programmed just like everything else in the system, so yes I do belive there are personal loot pools but that factors such as hp affect the return.

One more thing, if there isn't personal loot pools and data gathered on players tt spendings/decay, then how does one explain the situations where a maxxed out weapon misses 9 out of 10 times, now and then, if not to balance out the expected DPP of the weapon used?

Oh and Aio, calling people idiots just because they don't share your views ins't very constructive or nice for that matter, I see no reason to be rude to each other.

 

[Vedder]

Can you prove it? Do you have statistics from using no/low/medium/high decay armor and have you tried every type of weapon ingame, with different DPP and Dps stats so you can be sure that it is only HP (and possibly regen) that affects loot.

I do admit I was unclear in my previous post regarding blp vs laser, what I forgot to mention was the fact that the blp weapons used had much lower DPP than laser weapons I used, and I believe that to be taken into consideration when looting. So there aren't more globals and hofs for blp users, just because they use blp, but because the DPP of their weapon is so low that they need the compensation.

(Done the baby trox event a couple of times now and most of the time it is the same people who get the globals/hofs, and 9 out of 10 times that person uses a blp with low DPP and yes it is the dpp not the dps (killrate) that lets them global so many times during an event where there are 30-40 other people who go without a single global. Reason that I don't think it the killrate is because I have same or higher dps than most of the people getting the globals (unless they are lying about their weapon setup for some reason).

There has to be more factors than hp and hpregen that affects the loot system, becuse if it only was those twqo factors it would be a too simple system and someone would have figured it out by now. Loot system is programmed just like everything else in the system, so yes I do belive there are personal loot pools but that factors such as hp affect the return.

One more thing, if there isn't personal loot pools and data gathered on players tt spendings/decay, then how does one explain the situations where a maxxed out weapon misses 9 out of 10 times, now and then, if not to balance out the expected DPP of the weapon used?

Oh and Aio, calling people idiots just because they don't share your views ins't very constructive or nice for that matter, I see no reason to be rude to each other.

I think you're wrong. But I don't have any proof, only this argument:
Why then would all the non-uber people I knew 5-7 years ago, consistantly lose their peds over the years, while the ubers with super-eco gear at the same time was making money hunting? Some ubers even had bots hunting for them.


Well, nevermind. Let's say for a minute that what you say is true. Even if you're right, that bad eco gives more globals, that would probably just mean that MA somehow skewed the chances to hit a multiplier. But it would still be within the same loot system.

If we can agree on the above, it could be tested in a separate thread and would be kinda off topic here.

 

[-Archangel-]

Let me say this one more time, everybody now, big shout:

HP IS THE ONLY THING WHICH AFFECTS TT LOOT.

If by that you mean the inital HP of the mob then I can say:

this wasn't true




before MA changed the loot system (introduction of small amounts of ammo) it was easy to show

now I'm not sure (it would be kind of expensive for me to get such data)

 

[-Archangel-]

so yes I do belive there are personal loot pools but that factors such as hp affect the return.

first part as been stated by MA as to be incorrect,

not that I agree with such view but one that would probably satisfy you better in the long run would be server loot pool

 

[Sircus]

Is there a better way to do this?

It would be better if you checked the different intervalls of min/max then use (x)10^1, (x)10^2, (x)10^3 multipliers. I hope this points you in a more accurate direction.

Some seriously wrong conclussions being drawn about how regen affects loot in this debate.

 

[Dane]

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?132137-Grave-Digger-got-bored

Who is to say on that 1 kill he didn't just hit a multiplier as he could have by pulling the lever on a slot machine?

These tests would need to be done over an exhaustive amount of mob to prove otherwise.


Wait..

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?101842-Some-utterly-insane-tests

Could this be it? No.

Why?

Because this still does not prove that there are no gear side multipliers. Gun, amp, armor... Each mob has a value "string[2532234623543]" for instance, so who is to say that one Ravenger Mini-Sweeper V1 is the same as the next. Perhaps it was born with different multiplier numbers, such as tier numbers (or unlocked at diff tiers... has anyone measured loot while hunting with 0 tiers open, 1 tier open, 2 tiers open?) and maybe different numbers are unlocked as you tier the item.

This could go on forever needing countless hours and tests to prove/disprove it otherwise. Theories...


Atrox Mature Health: 1030
Regen Speed: 4.9


Furor Adept Health: 1030
Regen Speed: 10.08

By the regen effecting loot Furor Adept should ALWAYS have higher avg. loot than Atrox Mature. Unless by some chance you are hunting one them with 2 different dps that would keep regen HP the same.

 

[Magnus Mag]

little test

so, i did the test with the punies again to get some hints with the min/max thing.

i used a bl100 blp handgun(http://www.entropiawiki.com/Info.aspx?chart=Weapon&name=Isis_BL100_%28L%29) with and without a beast amp.

i hunted 50 caudatergus punys with each setup, in one run, attaching and detaching the amp as i liked.

if i take your 300 hp ~ 1 ped max, with 10 hp (which the puny cauda has), the max/min should be around 3.3 pec

here is the data i wrote down the last hour. first colums are without amp, the latter with amp. tt is in PEC. if i looted fragments i wrote it down as 0 pec tt value but noted the amount of fragments dropped.

	tt	shots	miss	crit	fragments		tt	shots miss	crit	fragments
	3,23	4	0	0	0			4,16  3	0	0	0
	0	4	0	0	0			3,86	4	0	0	0
	4,37	6	1	0	0			4,31	5	0	0	0
	0	8	2	0	0			4,76	3	0	0	0
	3,76	7	1	0	0			4,11	4	0	0	0
	2,21	5	0	0	0			3,46	5	1	0	0
	2,44	5	0	0	0			5,22	3	0	1	0
	3,04	6	0	1	0			2,69	3	0	0	0
	3,32	5	0	0	0			6,09	3	0	0	0
	3,77	6	1	0	0			2,33	4	0	0	0
	1,77	5	0	0	0			2,61	4	0	0	0
	1,13	5	0	0	0			1,95	3	0	0	0
	3,14	5	0	0	0			3,35	3	0	0	0
	1,68	4	0	0	0			4,38	4	0	0	0
	0	9	3	0	0			4,14	4	0	0	0
	0	5	0	0	10			4,89	5	1	0	0
	0	5	0	0	0			2,63	4	0	0	0
	0	4	1	1	0			3,35	4	0	0	0
	1,52	5	0	0	0			2,8	3	0	0	0
	0	5	0	0	13			3,26	4	0	0	0
	3,69	6	1	0	0			3,37	3	0	0	0
	1,64	5	0	0	0			3,77	4	0	0	0
	1,79	6	1	0	0			3,35	4	0	0	0
	3,92	6	0	0	0			1,68	4	1	0	0
	1,12	5	1	1	0			5,18	4	0	0	0
	1,84	7	1	0	0			6,16	5	1	0	0
	1,82	7	2	0	0			2,66	4	0	0	0
	2,68	5	0	0	0			0	5	1	0	28
	0	5	0	0	0			1,8	3	0	0	0
	1,85	5	0	0	0			1,81	3	0	0	0
	3,22	3	0	0	0			3,87	3	0	0	0
	0	6	0	0	14			1,06	4	0	0	0
	1,73	4	0	0	0			5,38	3	0	0	0
	1,59	5	0	0	0			3,18	3	0	0	0
	0	7	2	0	0			2,65	4	1	2	0
	0	6	2	0	0			0	3	0	0	0
	3,12	5	0	0	0			5,11	3	0	0	0
	3,18	6	1	0	0			3,69	6	2	0	0
	0	5	0	0	0			145	3	0	0	0
	2,61	6	1	0	0			3,3	3	0	1	0
	1,12	5	1	0	0			161	3	0	1	0
	1,87	5	0	0	0			6,24	2	0	1	0
	1,7	5	0	0	0			3,52	4	0	0	0
	3,8	6	0	0	0			1,89	4	0	0	0
	0	4	0	0	0			5,89	3	0	0	0
	1,22	5	0	0	0			0	4	0	0	11
	2,65	5	0	0	0			6,23	4	0	0	0
	1,24	4	0	0	0			2,35	5	0	0	0

its just a small amount of data, but i think its very interesting. the 3.3 max/min fits surprisingly well with the "without amp" sample. but with the amp, i get sometimes over 6 pec tt loot, which would fit into the 2x multiplier.as you can see i also got 2 "minis" using the amp. i got much more no looters using the gun without amp.

i am to tired now (its 4 in the night here) to analyse it further or to write much more about it, but i think one can see, that the setup does effect loot and that it is not only hp. (even if its only a small sample, it points into that direction).

i thought i leave it here for you guys. i will check back tomorrow and if i have time will analyse it a bit more (one could for example calculate the unused decay from the amp etc etc) or perhaps kill some more mobs...but i have to sleep now...

 

[-Archangel-]

so, i did the test with the punies again to get some hints with the min/max thing.

i used a bl100 blp handgun(http://www.entropiawiki.com/Info.aspx?chart=Weapon&name=Isis_BL100_%28L%29) with and without a beast amp.

i hunted 50 caudatergus punys with each setup, in one run, attaching and detaching the amp as i liked.

if i take your 300 hp ~ 1 ped max, with 10 hp (which the puny cauda has), the max/min should be around 3.3 pec

here is the data i wrote down the last hour. first colums are without amp, the latter with amp. tt is in PEC. if i looted fragments i wrote it down as 0 pec tt value but noted the amount of fragments dropped.

	tt	shots	miss	crit	fragments		tt	shots miss	crit	fragments
	3,23	4	0	0	0			4,16  3	0	0	0
	0	4	0	0	0			3,86	4	0	0	0
	4,37	6	1	0	0			4,31	5	0	0	0
	0	8	2	0	0			4,76	3	0	0	0
	3,76	7	1	0	0			4,11	4	0	0	0
	2,21	5	0	0	0			3,46	5	1	0	0
	2,44	5	0	0	0			5,22	3	0	1	0
	3,04	6	0	1	0			2,69	3	0	0	0
	3,32	5	0	0	0			6,09	3	0	0	0
	3,77	6	1	0	0			2,33	4	0	0	0
	1,77	5	0	0	0			2,61	4	0	0	0
	1,13	5	0	0	0			1,95	3	0	0	0
	3,14	5	0	0	0			3,35	3	0	0	0
	1,68	4	0	0	0			4,38	4	0	0	0
	0	9	3	0	0			4,14	4	0	0	0
	0	5	0	0	10			4,89	5	1	0	0
	0	5	0	0	0			2,63	4	0	0	0
	0	4	1	1	0			3,35	4	0	0	0
	1,52	5	0	0	0			2,8	3	0	0	0
	0	5	0	0	13			3,26	4	0	0	0
	3,69	6	1	0	0			3,37	3	0	0	0
	1,64	5	0	0	0			3,77	4	0	0	0
	1,79	6	1	0	0			3,35	4	0	0	0
	3,92	6	0	0	0			1,68	4	1	0	0
	1,12	5	1	1	0			5,18	4	0	0	0
	1,84	7	1	0	0			6,16	5	1	0	0
	1,82	7	2	0	0			2,66	4	0	0	0
	2,68	5	0	0	0			0	5	1	0	28
	0	5	0	0	0			1,8	3	0	0	0
	1,85	5	0	0	0			1,81	3	0	0	0
	3,22	3	0	0	0			3,87	3	0	0	0
	0	6	0	0	14			1,06	4	0	0	0
	1,73	4	0	0	0			5,38	3	0	0	0
	1,59	5	0	0	0			3,18	3	0	0	0
	0	7	2	0	0			2,65	4	1	2	0
	0	6	2	0	0			0	3	0	0	0
	3,12	5	0	0	0			5,11	3	0	0	0
	3,18	6	1	0	0			3,69	6	2	0	0
	0	5	0	0	0			145	3	0	0	0
	2,61	6	1	0	0			3,3	3	0	1	0
	1,12	5	1	0	0			161	3	0	1	0
	1,87	5	0	0	0			6,24	2	0	1	0
	1,7	5	0	0	0			3,52	4	0	0	0
	3,8	6	0	0	0			1,89	4	0	0	0
	0	4	0	0	0			5,89	3	0	0	0
	1,22	5	0	0	0			0	4	0	0	11
	2,65	5	0	0	0			6,23	4	0	0	0
	1,24	4	0	0	0			2,35	5	0	0	0

its just a small amount of data, but i think its very interesting. the 3.3 max/min fits surprisingly well with the "without amp" sample. but with the amp, i get sometimes over 6 pec tt loot, which would fit into the 2x multiplier.as you can see i also got 2 "minis" using the amp. i got much more no looters using the gun without amp.

i am to tired now (its 4 in the night here) to analyse it further or to write much more about it, but i think one can see, that the setup does effect loot and that it is not only hp. (even if its only a small sample, it points into that direction).

i thought i leave it here for you guys. i will check back tomorrow and if i have time will analyse it a bit more (one could for example calculate the unused decay from the amp etc etc) or perhaps kill some more mobs...but i have to sleep now...

If by that you mean the inital HP of the mob then I can say:

this wasn't true




before MA changed the loot system (introduction of small amounts of ammo) it was easy to show

now I'm not sure (it would be kind of expensive for me to get such data)

What I meant by this was that before you could attach a beast to a cheap ass rifle (2 damage so the beast only would add 1 and the rest was just "wasted") and still get more than 60% tt return on each run (and it was obvious that loot had a very significative difference)

Loot has changed and that is no longer a test that I would advise to be done.

Other potential tests I don't have the skills (level 100) to be satisfied with whatever result I would find.

Preliminary results would indicate that some decay used on the weapon is compensated


Then comes the question
Why use better eco set ups ?
My answer would be
it probably will decrease the ammount of PED needed to be cycled to get to the level of average returns
translation: more kills will get you near the expectable level of good multipliers faster
(this would be hard to argue against it)

so even if all was compensated the fact that you are forced to cycle more PED will have as consequence that you will end up paying more "fee" to MA (I don't think that breaking even on tt would be expectable for most people whatever the system that was implemented).

 

[Ned Flanders]

first part as been stated by MA as to be incorrect,

not that I agree with such view but one that would probably satisfy you better in the long run would be server loot pool

Let me clarify, because we might define "personal loot pool" as something different. When I talk about personal loot pool I don't mean that i.e. an uber who has been playing for several years and has spent more ped ingame will have a better chance of getting a global or hof. Personal loot pool in my definition is what has already been referred to as "multiplier".

I mentioned before that there are times when a weapon you max, misses like 8-9 shots out of 10 in a row and there are other times when you crit, 2-3 times in a row or close to each other. I believe this has to do with the system recognizing the expected damage per pec of the weapon setup and thus add crits or misses to your shots to adjust the actual DPP you have with the weapon to match or be close to that of the weapon setup. Example if a weapon has 2.8 dpp and your currently doing 2.7 dpp, the system will put in some crits to your shots to put it closer to the expected 2.8 dpp, similarly if you do 2.9 dpp with the same setup, the system will force misses into your shots, to bring you down to 2.8dpp.

The reason I mention this is because I think the "personal loot pool" works in a similar way. If you keep getting poor returns close to i.e. 50-60%, the system adds to your personal multiplier and at some point the multiplier is added into the loot and depending on the mobs hp and regen you will get the ped value of the mob x the multiplier you have "built up" with bad returns. So in theory if this is correct that means if you hunt a low hp mob (i.e. argonauts) and you get poor returns and then change over to a mob with more hp i.e leviathan, the multiplier might be set of while hunting the big hp mob and hence result in a bigger return than if you had kept hunting the low hp mob.
So if I clarify my definition of "personal loot pool" it might be better to call it "personal multiplier pool". You ofc want facts for this and I have non other than one example. I was actually doing the argo mission around the time MM started, I had really bad returns for several rounds in a row, so I logged off and in the morning I tried the Yulebot (didn't loot/kill anything before that), so I killed the yulebot that cost about 50-70ped to kill in category 2 and I got a 5k HoF. So let's say that my personal multiplier was at 75ish and that it cost me about 65-70ped to kill the yulebot, that would give a sum around the one I got on the yulebot. If I had kept working on the argo mission instead I believe the multiplier still would have gone of, but since argo cost around 1ped to kill I'd end up with a 75ish global/hof instead of the big one I got.

So to summarize, I don't believe people have personal loot pools (even if some ubers seem to, with all the hofs they get ), but I do believe that people have personal multipliers affected by poor returns. As I mentioned same way weapon eco is monitored, loot return is probably monitored with multipliers being used to adjust the loot to negate too poor returns. I might also add that since that 5k hof I have had really poor returns and rarely gotten a global (hunting small mobs, but still atrox globaling now and then isn't that rare). So it seems I am getting "misses" in my loot now to compensate for the big hof, so I get down to the % return MAs system expects me to have.

Also, the whole point of skilling in my opinion, is to max out more economical gear (that lowers your costs, not increase your income) and to be able to hunt stronger mobs (hopefully with some markup, since not everyone can hunt them).

Oh and Archangel, I do believe that loot is somewhat localized to servers you are on, events are usually a good indicator of this (i.e. MM event, when people put their peds into MM servers, the loot on other servers generally decrease), but this one is hard to prove because people could just as well explain it as "more people in the same place = bount to be more globals/hofs in that place"

 

[Viperstrike]

So has anyone cracked the code so many over a decade have tried to crack

Just asking, crypt-code-basement the AI will overtake and destroy all of your warped lil minds !

Run before it is too late

** Good input so far! Must rewrite some of the AIs routines to counteract huuumum intelligence - Says Magnus from afar **

 

[Vedder]

Who is to say on that 1 kill he didn't just hit a multiplier as he could have by pulling the lever on a slot machine?

These tests would need to be done over an exhaustive amount of mob to prove otherwise.


Wait..



Could this be it? No.

Why?

Because this still does not prove that there are no gear side multipliers. Gun, amp, armor... Each mob has a value "string[2532234623543]" for instance, so who is to say that one Ravenger Mini-Sweeper V1 is the same as the next. Perhaps it was born with different multiplier numbers, such as tier numbers (or unlocked at diff tiers... has anyone measured loot while hunting with 0 tiers open, 1 tier open, 2 tiers open?) and maybe different numbers are unlocked as you tier the item.

This could go on forever needing countless hours and tests to prove/disprove it otherwise. Theories...


Atrox Mature Health: 1030
Regen Speed: 4.9


Furor Adept Health: 1030
Regen Speed: 10.08

By the regen effecting loot Furor Adept should ALWAYS have higher avg. loot than Atrox Mature. Unless by some chance you are hunting one them with 2 different dps that would keep regen HP the same.

So you assume that JimmyB is incredibly stupid, and used different guns for each test?
You obviously didn't even bother to read JimmyB's thread.

Will you please just shut up now?

 

[ermik]

Trying to define how the system works is hard, since there seem to be several components working together in a way we have no control over.

These are things ive come to find during my time in Entropia. ( joined 2006 ) they are in no way proven to be true, but these are observations from behaviours and patterns i cannot overlook or ignore.

dmg/pec is important, since it enables you to loot more mobs for the same amount of peds cycled, statisticly you then stand a bigger chance to hit something nice while you also find yourself reaching a statistical avg return with lesser funds.

I think your multiplier table ( call it personal lootpool if you want.... ) is regenerated with a time interval ( or number of positions )

I think the server multiplier table ( call it server lootpool if you want... ) is regenerated with a time interval ( or number of positions. )

The system tries to pay you back what you spend on actual hits by tweaking your personal multiplier table over time, the question is what does the system consider to be spending, dmg or tt ? if tt only the offensive tt ?

A yellow line MISS, is when the system takes its fee from you and adds it to the revenue stream, if you MISS alot youre a good customer.

If you spend a day shooting in the ground, the system will generate better multipliers for you later on, you cant control how and when, and i cant explain how, just that it does. Some day when im not lazy, irrational or depressed i may come around proving it.

Skills matter, if you dont get hit you spend less to enable each looting event.

Mobs have multiplier tables, they also get regenerated with a interval or number of positions.

You can reset you short term multiplier table, just dont do it when youre already doing bad, risk is you may end up using up a fancy multiplier on a puny mob or a 2 pec click.

If things go bad no matter what you do, stop doing anything, this is hard and i dont master this yet.

Take this for what it is, thoughts flying out of my head based on what ive seen since 2006.

It could be really easy just saying you buy loot from the system paying in dmg, but i think its abit more to it than that.

 

[Ned Flanders]

Trying to define how the system works is hard, since there seem to be several components working together in a way we have no control over.

These are things ive come to find during my time in Entropia. ( joined 2006 ) they are in no way proven to be true, but these are observations from behaviours and patterns i cannot overlook or ignore.

dmg/pec is important, since it enables you to loot more mobs for the same amount of peds cycled, statisticly you then stand a bigger chance to hit something nice while you also find yourself reaching a statistical avg return with lesser funds.

I think your multiplier table ( call it personal lootpool if you want.... ) is regenerated with a time interval ( or number of positions )

I think the server multiplier table ( call it server lootpool if you want... ) is regenerated with a time interval ( or number of positions. )

The system tries to pay you back what you spend on actual hits by tweaking your personal multiplier table over time, the question is what does the system consider to be spending, dmg or tt ? if tt only the offensive tt ?

A yellow line MISS, is when the system takes its fee from you and adds it to the revenue stream, if you MISS alot youre a good customer.

If you spend a day shooting in the ground, the system will generate better multipliers for you later on, you cant control how and when, and i cant explain how, just that it does. Some day when im not lazy, irrational or depressed i may come around proving it.

Skills matter, if you dont get hit you spend less to enable each looting event.

Mobs have multiplier tables, they also get regenerated with a interval or number of positions.

You can reset you short term multiplier table, just dont do it when youre already doing bad, risk is you may end up using up a fancy multiplier on a puny mob or a 2 pec click.

If things go bad no matter what you do, stop doing anything, this is hard and i dont master this yet.

Take this for what it is, thoughts flying out of my head based on what ive seen since 2006.

It could be really easy just saying you buy loot from the system paying in dmg, but i think its abit more to it than that.

Thank you, finally someone who clarifies what I've been trying to say all along.

On tiny tiny detail that I think no one has mentioned, MA tweaks the loot system all the time (they even mention it in their plans for the year to "rebalance" and "improve" loot returns). So using caps lock and/or increase font size and shout "this data from 5-7 years ago prove that you are wrong" since the loot system last VU might not be the same as this VU or the next.

I think there are some educated theories in this thread that are close to the truth (even if we can't actually know the truth without an official statement from MA), but as long as they keep tweaking the system we will never know for sure.

 

[Magnus Mag]

Then comes the question
Why use better eco set ups ?
My answer would be
it probably will decrease the ammount of PED needed to be cycled to get to the level of average returns
translation: more kills will get you near the expectable level of good multipliers faster
(this would be hard to argue against it)

why use better eco setup?..higher individuals loots on a creature doesn't mean same ped_in/ped_out...

 

[-Archangel-]

If you spend a day shooting in the ground, the system will generate better multipliers for you later on, you cant control how and when, and i cant explain how, just that it does. Some day when im not lazy, irrational or depressed i may come around proving it.

It has been done.
It was not that simple (not any gun, so it was obvious one of the factors)
I don't advise to be done anymore.

Skills matter,

I believe so.

 

[-Archangel-]

why use better eco setup?..higher individuals loots on a creature doesn't mean same ped_in/ped_out...

I didn't mean for it to be read as the only possible answer.


So,

Why not to use better eco setup ?

Maybe it somehow triggers better multipliers
which will give better market returns

 

[Dane]

So you assume that JimmyB is incredibly stupid, and used different guns for each test?
You obviously didn't even bother to read JimmyB's thread.

Will you please just shut up now?

Obviously you are not capable of understanding simple English and Mathematics.

It's alright to feel confused. Poor you.

 

[Jimmy B]

Atrox Mature Health: 1030
Regen Speed: 4.9

Furor Adept Health: 1030
Regen Speed: 10.08

Probably those numbers should be checked, data on entropedia isn't exactly official

But anyway, forgive me if I've missed something but have you posted any data regarding these mobs? I can't see any.

 

[Aio]

Probably those numbers should be checked, data on entropedia isn't exactly official

But anyway, forgive me if I've missed something but have you posted any data regarding these mobs? I can't see any.

I'm highly suspicious that troxie matures regen at <5 hp/s...

Would love to see someone take it down with an opalo+101 these days

 

[scorch]

Shard-Angel pointed me here and suggested I added the theory as an option to Entropia Armory. Hope it can be of use to you guys!

(choose a creature and tick "Toggle bond theory")

 

[Aio]

Shard-Angel pointed me here and suggested I added the theory as an option to Entropia Armory. Hope it can be of use to you guys!

(choose a creature and tick "Toggle bond theory")

This is very useful thankyou! +rep.

Will do some tests with various weapon/mob combos; utilising:

Log all loots
Remove fragment loots
Remove multiplied loots (3.5x +)

And then compare with the BT value return...

 

[Stefan 008 Bond]

Fantastic, and +rep to Scorch.. not only for creating that amazing tool in the first place but also for creating a template for me to run calculations easily going forward..

This is going to help in ways i couldn't even have imagined until today, and I can already see some revelations coming

Early playing with numbers has me guessing for exmpl at a roughly 14% min return rate on the raw cost to kill.

What I am trying to do now is adjust the variables to fit some known and recorded min/max loots (Such as Jimmy B's Ambulimax data and his observations on getting a low of .60 ped on ambu young, and a max of 4.29) as in, when i set the low loot/min to 14% you will see it gets close to predicting the .60 min loot on the ambu

I was originally going to ask you Scorch, to add an adjustable max range like you have set for the min, but I have quickly realized that playing with the dpp setting in there i can achieve the same result.. and quite possibly could be leading me to some new avenues of thoughts/revelations (too early to reveal yet tho)

I do feel some fresh data may indeed be needed tho.. Which the original plan was to create a seperate thread for, but if anyone has any solid data readily handy already, they can feel free to post it here to start.. All I need is lowest and highest "normal" loots received on mobs..

More to come..

008

 

[Shard-Angel]

Have now added an option to include "The Bond Theory". You can change the DPP and min loot values, but I recommend that the DPP is kept at 3. The min loot value is, as Bond said, not really verified, but seems close enough. Have also included a "profit" column in the result which will tell you how much you're wasting when you're hunting (if you get NO multipliers/globals).

Fantastic! The merging of great minds could lead to some amazing discoveries!

 

[Aio]

Also enjoying the name "The Bond Theory"

Will try to get some data sets up soon.

 

[Viperstrike]

Need the theme music to go with now

Great work guys +repped you both in other thread already!

Cheers,
Viper

 

[jetsina]

Early playing with numbers has me guessing for exmpl at a roughly 14% min return rate on the raw cost to kill.

I have been noticing for crystal pedes that of the 1-12 pecs loot plus xx ammo I seemed to be getting only about half the occurences of 1 pec that I was expecting. Also, I was getting in the region of 13 no-looters or fragment loots per 100 kills. I have started wondering if these results are flying off a random number generator returning 0-100, with no-looters and fragments for values below 13, 1 pec for 13 to 20, 2 pecs for 21-30 etc.

This would explain why I was averaging more than 10 no-looters per hundred (not simply a result below 10) and at the same time why I was seeing 1 pec loots more rarely.
This would seem to fit in closely with your ballpark of 14% min return rate too....

I'm still working off adding 20% to 30% or so to these returns, however, so that the max loot off 100% becomes 12-13 pecs for my pedes. At the lower end it would then be 1 pec return for random number returns of 13 to 17 now, which is closer to what I was actually seeing (only about 5 one pec events in 100 mobs).

In short: what is the percentage of no-looters + frags that other people are getting? Is it near 13% of kills?

 

[Stefan 008 Bond]

Possible Breakthrough:

ok, so thanks to Scorch's tool I have been able to crunch some numbers and queries incredibly fast and was able to really flesh out some ideas rapidly..and I have some possible revisions/ fine-tuning:

What I have essentially done is flipped this whole theory on its head momentarily and now am looking at representing the same core formula in a different way! (although it is the same in principle)

I have a busy night ahead of me so I won't be around again until tomorrow, but I wanted to throw this out there into the food for thought blender so to speak..

Instead of using 300 hp per ped as a high end figure for our ecos (and resulting game balance mechanics).. i went in the opposite direction!

What if I were to say that Entropia hunting returns were balanced against a 2.35 eco!

think now in terms of 235 hp per ped - this creates the Max value on cost to kill - per the actual damg you have done to the mob.. (this value should essentially remain fairly constant in normal hunting conditions, unless you push the system to extremes such as Jimmy B's and Gravediggers old tests)

and that the Min value is very close to 14% of that cost..

This new way of looking at it would also mean that the minimum Multiplier is actaully 3x and not 3.5x...

I am already finding it fascinating looking at the game balance in the new light..

If this is true, or more accurate it would actually explain A LOT!

such as, basically Mindark has essentially every weapon and weapon type covered.. (even a lvl 2 noob can get roughly 2.35 eco from tt weapons) to within a reasonable footing of competition,

also take a look on entropedia as to how many weapons actually exist at below 2.35 eco.. not very many at all and every one of them are old school melee weapons.. (read no one is using these on any lvl)

It also would "cover to an extent" all bad eco choices, old school players who refuse to give up UL weps that they aren't maxed on, noobs using unmaxed gear, as well as to a large degree, all defense costs..

When i plug in a 2.35 eco on scorch's tool and give the min payout % to 14% of that.. i am getting frightengly accurate numbers..

As I said earlier its essentially the same core formula but instead of looking at things on the high end of the assumed eco scale, I am looking at things on the low end.. (note: it is still very useful to use the 300 hp per ped when estimating cost to kill as we are all still around that eco.. this new 2.35 eco figure is addressing how Mindark pays out the min/max values only)

So instead of representing loots received over a ped on a 300 hp mob as a 1.2x multi on cost to kill.. with a 3.5x multiplier minimum, I am looking at a 235 hp per ped and a 3x minimum multiplier..

I am looking at things from the other end.. 235 hp per ped which results in it costing roughly 1.28 peds to kill a 300 hp mob (at 2.35 eco) and thus will be the max loot in the min/max range..

I can elaborate more on what this all means but I am a little pressed for time today..

For now, anyone who would like to contribute or test it out can go to Scorch's tool on Entropia Armory and plug in these #s ( being set the Bond Theory to a 2.35 eco and the min% to 14)

also, anyone having any min/max data on any mobs can post away, I will be starting a separate thread to get some fresh data soon.. but again all i need is min/max loots you have looted from mobs..

Well, that's it for now, thoughts? comments? more to follow...

008

 

[Jimmy B]

also, anyone having any min/max data on any mobs can post away, I will be starting a separate thread to get some fresh data soon.. but again all i need is min/max loots you have looted from mobs..

These are all a bit old, but in case they're useful:

Data from my short ambu experiment (the one testing impact of regen on loot): http://jimmy-b.net/files/ambu.ods

Data from my short pluma experiment (I never got round to finishing this one, I was testing the impact of overkill on loot): http://jimmy-b.net/files/pluma.ods

Some other data with quite a lot of loots from a variety of mobs, I think supplied by pecker for analysis by falkao, hopefully it's alright for me to post it publicly: http://jimmy-b.net/files/peckerloots.ods

They're Open Office (which is free) spreadsheets.

 

[scorch]

What's bothering me though is this: if the minimum 'global' for a Longtooth (numbers from your original post) is ~59.5 PEDs, and the minimum multiplier is 3.5x, that means it is not possible to get a multiplier for any loot lower than the cost to kill, right?

[...] 17 ped and apply the 3.5x multiplier minimum - this gives 59.5 [...] you will not see a single global of 50-59 peds in there [...]

Meaning all globals should be discrete values unless either: the multipliers are random floating values starting at 3.5x, or an additional random TT is added to the loot after the multiplier has been applied.

 

[Vedder]

...
the multipliers are random floating values starting at 3.5x, or an additional random TT is added to the loot after the multiplier has been applied.

Hmm... Distinguishing between these in tests will be impossible. But the result is the same, so maybe it doesn't matter.

I still bet on the random fp number. That would be the simple and natural way to implement it for the developers.

Hmm... So maybe it's the opposite at MAs