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Returns too avatar-based

Not sure I am following you. Do you hate only the dry period or also the profit periods? The system works just fine, you're just spoiled, you'll eventually get over it, don't worry.
 
I`ts pretty obvious that there is a personal lootpool theese days, and it feels very rigged. I had a huge downperiod from Merry Mayhem and forward, when i finally got my equalizer multi it was a big one (17.900 ped) but i dident feel any joy, it was just expected. I dident even stop running in my mining session i just kept forward droping bombs.
 
pechunter said:
I`ts pretty obvious that there is a personal lootpool theese days, and it feels very rigged. I had a huge downperiod from Merry Mayhem and forward, when i finally got my equalizer multi it was a big one (17.900 ped) but i dident feel any joy, it was just expected. I dident even stop running in my mining session i just kept forward droping bombs.
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How cool of a game would this be if those 18k had a nice chunk of markup attached? say 20%

If the spice to craft comes from TT mining is useless... Why no fix for this?
 
returns must be avatar-balanced (not solely based on the player) to stave off gambling commissions and gaming regulators.

that being said.... mining returns are INCREDIBLY BORING since the september 2018 changes. You know exactly what you're gonna get and you can time it almost to the hour.
 
pechunter said:
I`ts pretty obvious that there is a personal lootpool theese days, and it feels very rigged. I had a huge downperiod from Merry Mayhem and forward, when i finally got my equalizer multi it was a big one (17.900 ped) but i dident feel any joy, it was just expected. I dident even stop running in my mining session i just kept forward droping bombs.
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You can give me the 18k, I'll be excited for you
 
What's the alternative?

They have to track and adjusted accordingly to make the return % somewhat balanced.
 
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miathan said:
Not really. Pure RNG would also work. And it's much simpler and more robust.
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Pure RNG would mean gambling, better not go there.
 
Deepa2 said:
and will lead to MA bankruptcy. Because 50% of people will get shitty returns (shittier than now) and leave. And another 50% will get 150% of what they never brought to the game.

MA uses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumulative_distribution_function, but it never just RNG and never exceeds of what you've spend.
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Well, with "pure RNG" I didn't mean a single uniform distribution. With "pure" I meant that each loot instance are independent events (no history, no "loot pool).

I have a goal to track 1M individual loot instances, cost and return for each kill. I'm up to about 100K so far.
To me it a all looks very random. Will share some data on the distribution curves later.
 
"Returns too avatar-based"

Meh, I'm ok w/ that idea. Here's my results over the past 3 years spread out over the 3 main professions. (I have many more years, but you get the idea. The other years are also amazingly consistent in returns)
Note 1 year I was MUCH more active than the other, yet the general returns were pretty consistent percentage-wise.


index.php
 
A quick table to show the "Martingale effect" wheb a player with 10.000 Ped on the card cycle them over and over at various percent of return
numbers are self explanatory.
Le'ts examine an aeverage gamer with 200.000 Ped per month cycle
99% return makes cost to play 200 Eur per month
98% 340 USD
97% 460 USD
95% 560 USD
This pretty much explains why the playerbase is so thin.
to increase the playerbase the return on ammo need to reach 99.75% or 50 USD per month gaming cost (on the usual 200k ped cycled)
The MU system transfer all on the player side, leading to rise in items that are rare that are sold by owners to recoup loss in TT terms
and purchased by buyers like a "greater fool gambling on price" hoping to sell higher or for Hypenation, leading to more delusionary effect.

(this does not account skill value that is not fully perceived by players, because usually skill are part of the progress, but in EU each skill tick is about 1 PEC
then there is another 0.5% not perceived value that is the codex skill value that sums up.
basically we transfer TT Loss into skills (and as a bleed for commissions) but skills are not perceived as value, jsut the PED card and the storage.
probably having a over ammo return in the line 99% return and 2% skill value would make everyone happy.
95...98% is too low to have a jump in the playerbase.

Initial Ped
10000​
Cycle
99%​
98%​
97%​
96%​
95%​
94%​
93%​
92%​
91%​
90%​
1​
9.9009.8009.7009.6009.5009.4009.3009.2009.1009.000
2​
9.8019.6049.4099.2169.0258.8368.6498.4648.2818.100
3​
9.7039.4129.1278.8478.5748.3068.0447.7877.5367.290
4​
9.6069.2248.8538.4938.1457.8077.4817.1646.8576.561
5​
9.5109.0398.5878.1547.7387.3396.9576.5916.2405.905
6​
9.4158.8588.3307.8287.3516.8996.4706.0645.6795.314
7​
9.3218.6818.0807.5146.9836.4856.0175.5785.1684.783
8​
9.2278.5087.8377.2146.6346.0965.5965.1324.7034.305
9​
9.1358.3377.6026.9256.3025.7305.2044.7224.2793.874
10​
9.0448.1717.3746.6485.9875.3864.8404.3443.8943.487
11​
8.9538.0077.1536.3825.6885.0634.5013.9963.5443.138
12​
8.8647.8476.9386.1275.4044.7594.1863.6773.2252.824
13​
8.7757.6906.7305.8825.1334.4743.8933.3832.9352.542
14​
8.6877.5366.5285.6474.8774.2053.6203.1122.6702.288
15​
8.6017.3866.3335.4214.6333.9533.3672.8632.4302.059
16​
8.5157.2386.1435.2044.4013.7163.1312.6342.2111.853
17​
8.4297.0935.9584.9964.1813.4932.9122.4232.0121.668
18​
8.3456.9515.7804.7963.9723.2832.7082.2291.8311.501
19​
8.2626.8125.6064.6043.7743.0862.5192.0511.6661.351
20​
8.1796.6765.4384.4203.5852.9012.3421.8871.5161.216
 
With these two steps the game would be at least playable:

1- Variance/Volatility set halfway between loot 1.0 and loot 2.0 - Not as hard as old days but not so easy and predictable as it now.
2- Link high turnover activitys together, wink wink, loot converts to nanocubes for EPs BP and take nanos of TT. - Creates a similar supply chain of old OA101s crafting and makes economy cycle.

As long as there are enough players reporting logs with 95% average return on the long run I can focus my attention on something else. Like the fact we consistently get about 20% of usable loot back from a run. From those 20% I hardly doubt you get the 125% markup needed to breakeven vs TT. On top you have nothing to do with the fillers other than report it as a loss to the TT.

Its logic and math put together.

They took or jobsss!!! They did when they put in the EP Bps that require no contribution from economy to play.

Creating supply chains from player to player is what this game needs to survive and thrive. Not fighting the TT loss...

Those two steps would bring the economy up a couple notches and make the game bearable and logical for the general population that is still not completely unL and alienated from the economic side of the game other that deeds, LA and real estate purchase.

It baffles me that every discussion goes around the topic of TT loss meta but neglect the fundamental concept of the game. The economy and markup where the real game should be played.

5% long run is a fee. Get over it! Give or take a couple percentage point more or less to skills and gear and its just fine if there is enough variance and jackpot chance. The rest should be search for markup and making your loot worth it. But MindArk needs to step up its game on that side of things. Its not with 80% of the highturnover playerbase being completely unL equiped that we are getting anywhere.
 
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Deepa2 said:
and will lead to MA bankruptcy. Because 50% of people will get shitty returns (shittier than now) and leave. And another 50% will get 150% of what they never brought to the game.

MA uses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumulative_distribution_function, but it never just RNG and never exceeds of what you've spend.
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The game was just fine and people were loving it. It was not the old RNG fault. It was those hacker miners on FOMA that screwed up our fun. Hence why MA implemented a way that noone can get over TT on a regular basis.

The lost of trust from that incident and the new rules actually drove away the most part of big gamblers and high turnover miners that entropia ever had. 2012/2014.

Im not gonna lie and say it was an easy game. It wans´t. But was a lot more fun and worthy to play if you had 2 brain cells and a decent set between the legs to endure bad variance.
 
volatility is fine. High or low volatility. ~90% tt return is fine. It might feel bad to see that no matter how you mine you're stuck at this 90%, but this is a business of MA afterall. What separates a experienced player and a new player is the knowledge of where to mine for the high MU. I think it's fair to have a system that guarantees a certain % of tt return. As long as they worked out the math where if your average MU of the loot is over a certain % then you can profit. I wouldn't want MA to go out of business with over 100% return. I also would want to feel scammed with under 80% return. Unless all MU in game goes up so high that with under 80% return it will still be profitable lol. But anyways, I hope I'm making my point clear. Basically it is MA's job to calculate what the fair return% should be and then they need to balance drop rates to balance out the average MU% Just like hunting. It is important to find the right and high MU mob. Miners need to find the right and high MU mining area. Crafters need to find the right and high MU item to craft. The profit players need to figure out where to mine. The rest just focus on having fun :)
I think hof should be a factor to go over that 90% or whatever the tt return should be. Sort of like a progressive jackpot where that's just where a % of that ~10% goes into is that progressive jackpot. It pays the player to go just slightly above the 90%. Then the ATH should allow someone to go above 100%. Global is fine as a way to balance out the volatility. Since HOF and ATH are more rare, I think they should allow a player to go above.
Personally, I wouldn't mind a boring low volatility model lol. I'm just a boring person and prefers consistency, but then I know as long as I have a large sample it will balance out. So not really an issue. I suppose this is also what separates a new player from experienced player. The down side is that we lose potential players because they experience a down cycle of their return and run out of ped to play then forced to quit. So I guess the current model does reward game knowledge. Mainly what to hunt and craft, where to mine, and how to manage bankroll. I'm sure the ubers know something else. But from what I learned in game and on the forums, this is all I know
 
tt 90% is fine. i need end you here... no fuck way...
except if mindark do something that not be relay in wave(that control you life , because if not do you going fall) to increase markup to average markup 115 minimun

I know mindark need , money , and house awalys going win..... but make players dont have chance to win over other player in markup wise because systematical/pragmatic nerfs across all areas over the years its biggest bullshit

Fews things... they did in past/present/future
1 - They increase TT 96-98 and leave MU for market gods balance out
2 - They control Markup like true USSR , increase tt to default 95 low votality make marginal profit and marginal loss to everyone
3 - They Swap back to loot 1.0 and go wild tt 5% to 5000% couples hours , no multi cap anymore , remind molisk hit 10k? ;)
4 - They finaly rebalance game remove all UL from game replace with L version , you want markup rigth? you need pay markup its damm economy 101

Well you can have fews idea about how come this
Waves , Low TT , Mindark Control economy
Cost to play its something indeed , but Mindark economy start fall when they dump shit ton UL and Mindark put craft , and high need craft overhaull in phase no existence they did smal babys steps its notable with armatrix but its not fix core of issues that craft have , And maybe take more time but eventual economy going fall , and cost to play that its high become even more high....

Crafted need be better that any UL in future/past/present.... you maybe ask why? to people buy / use / and burn resource
Another my2cent fix to craft its end with L BP , want trow shit ton UL wep? why not trow shit ton UL BP rewards is win/win to everyone


Ofcourse people with 500k investment going come here say otherwise...and
Influx player generate decay aka mindark profit in fact increase and CLD tell us about it , because alot people with crpyto now can affoard deposit in game , and its per se nice large ammount but go ahead take our economy most ammount items is down and tt food around 90% auction is useless. fews things like Enhancer still up , weapons get inflation because this influx money to UL , Minning Amplifier still daily base because limited ammout UL ,

Our Economy Relay Grind Rare Token to pick expensive UL gun in event to profit , its not health in long term
Its not about get base loot markup , that most know where going direct to tt , its not about average markup 110% like old days but pick some rare loot with tt+5000 , as i said above you need pay markup , To game itself have good markups

how many is still profit and survive without relay moth deposit? or many increased they value deposit per moth because cant get same value in markup aynmore , its expand more the gap

I dont have degree in economy .... and at this point expect someone in mindark visualise this flaw , but even its flaw in economy its only fuck players
because if people get less money in markup , they need deposit more and mindark make more money

Nvm enjoy
 
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MA should remove the shitty wave system from hunting, they already did it for mining, it was a great change, and many others agree.
 
Vadio said:
tt 90% is fine. i need end you here... no fuck way...
except if mindark do something that not be relay in wave(that control you life , because if not do you going fall) to increase markup to average markup 115 minimun

I know mindark need , money , and house awalys going win..... but make players dont have chance to win over other player in markup wise because systematical/pragmatic nerfs across all areas over the years its biggest bullshit

Fews things... they did in past/present/future
1 - They increase TT 96-98 and leave MU for market gods balance out
2 - They control Markup like true USSR , increase tt to default 95 low votality make marginal profit and marginal loss to everyone
3 - They Swap back to loot 1.0 and go wild tt 5% to 5000% couples hours , no multi cap anymore , remind molisk hit 10k? ;)
4 - They finaly rebalance game remove all UL from game replace with L version , you want markup rigth? you need pay markup its damm economy 101

Well you can have fews idea about how come this
Waves , Low TT , Mindark Control economy
Cost to play its something indeed , but Mindark economy start colapyse when they dump shit ton UL and put craft , and high need craft overhaull in phase no existence , eventual economy going fall , and cost to play that its high become even more high....

Ofcourse people with 500k investment going come here say otherwise...
Influx player in fact increase CLD tell us about it , because alot people with crpyto deposit in game , and nica large ammount but go ahead take our economy in 95% items is down. Enhancer still up , weapons get inflation because this influx money to UL , Minning Amplifier , its our economy and ESI

I dont have degree in economy .... and at this point expect someone in mindark visualise this flaw , but even its flaw in economy its only fuck players
because if people get less money in markup , they need deposit more and mindark make more money

Nvm enjoy
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clearly I didn't express myself clearly. I didn't mean 90% is fine. I just usually say 90% tt return as a general statement. of course everyone has their own tt return. I heard some people are at 98% tt some 97, etc. I don't know what is your personal tt return right now. But I think in general the worse return a person can get is 90%. Personally my tt return from hunting was ~96% return over a very long cycle. However, my current mining tt return is still at 90%. I'm sure it will average out higher soon. I only cycled about ~2.5k ish ped. So no where near the amount I have cycled for my hunting logs. Let me change me example to make it easier for you. If our tt return is 95% then it is up to us to find out which mob has a high avg MU loot to make up that other 5% to break even or maybe profit. Same thing for mining. if you get 95% tt return from mining, then you need to find an area that will make up the 5%. But if MA rebalanced the MU of average loot in a way where you can make up 10% then it's fine. the main point is to end up with a system where we can break even or maybe even profit. Hopefully this is easier to understand now.
 
psyche said:
However, my current mining tt return is still at 90%. ......... Same thing for mining. if you get 95% tt return from mining, then you need to find an area that will make up the 5%. But if MA rebalanced the MU of average loot in a way where you can make up 10% then it's fine. the main point is to end up with a system where we can break even or maybe even profit.
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Sounds great in a theory, but not.

I have a strong believe what mining is capped to 90%, at least it proven by my records for a year. And the problem is what you never get 100% of resources mined with any decent markup. In general it's 50% shit with 101%, ~25% of 110%, and ~25% with 140-200%

So it's isn't like you capped to 90% of TT return but can easily sell this 90% TT with 125% of mu. Also having -5%-15% losses on amps, ~-5% on finder - you practically have a very hard time to reach 95% return from mining.

I do know places where I can find mostly putty or other places full of redulite, and sometimes i get 50%-100% tt return as these two highly markuped mats. But in general it's just 1 claim out of 10, with hit rate of 30% (and dont forget deposit fee 4% of something)
 
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Make EU Great Again - Bring back the luckfactor!
 
pechunter said:
Since returns wasent pre-determined and caped!?
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Can you post an official communicate where they say returns were capped or pre-determined? I would like to get myself informed.
 
the real problem Messi, is that there is not ANY statement from MA that is not Bizantine or smoky
they just gave so far disaggregate inforamtions that mean almost nothing froma statistical perspective.
The ONLY official statement is "the average playerbase returned 98% TT" some year ago.
being that a number on a population of people cycling over 100k ped per mongh in ammo
it was assumed that the "average joe" returns 98%
this is not in the statement. the statement is that the TOTAL LOOT POOL RETURNED AVERAGED 98%
for that category of players.
Being Caly about 80% shrapnel there is another conversion factor that squuezes it to 98.5% (circa)
the missin 1.5% is returned in skill by codex (0.5%) and in a 1 pec per like skill reward (system panel)
so probably including skill TT the return are NEAR unit ON AVERAGE
and that includes swirls that are just recoup of lower loot before to make some ppl happy every 200 300 kills.

this is like saying... if i eat 2 chicken and you starve ONA VERAGE we had 1 chicken each.

the lackustre playerbase makes Markup fatt toward 0 for common drop and as i think that
"high or ultra high level ppl" do not perceive it due to fact that kil lmonster with better return
being them more difficult to tank.

as the game drops 14.000 incision plates from NI they will be TT food.....
also 5.000 LP100 would be TT food.... you can0t use 2....
 
Msturlese said:
the real problem Messi, is that there is not ANY statement
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If we don't have anything official about that I can easily deduct is a player based conclusion and I am not interested in any of that.
Msturlese said:
TOTAL LOOT POOL RETURNED AVERAGED 98%
for that category of players.
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That doesn't mean anything close to pre-determined or capped.It means they measured and that's the result.
 
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Msturlese said:
(this does not account skill value that is not fully perceived by players, because usually skill are part of the progress, but in EU each skill tick is about 1 PEC
then there is another 0.5% not perceived value that is the codex skill value that sums up.
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Why would skills be counted as TT return? Even though PED is used as the unit to quantify skill they don't have a TT (Trade Terminal) value.
 
Msturlese said:
Le'ts examine an aeverage gamer with 200.000 Ped per month cycle
99% return makes cost to play 200 Eur per month
98% 340 USD
97% 460 USD
95% 560 USD
This pretty much explains why the playerbase is so thin.
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This is a good point. The player base needs to pay for the game. Salaries, new deployment, server cost etc.
If we want the game to be cheaper we need more players. But to get more players the game needs to be cheaper to play...
 
miathan said:
Why would skills be counted as TT return? Even though PED is used as the unit to quantify skill they don't have a TT (Trade Terminal) value.
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as you are rewarded 25 PED skills for completing a codex repeat... it is 25 ped. POINT.
(Ofc need to use a ESI and loose some value in filling the chip) so its not fast cash but Skills have a PED value
 
Msturlese said:
as you are rewarded 25 PED skills for completing a codex repeat... it is 25 ped. POINT.
(Ofc need to use a ESI and loose some value in filling the chip) so its not fast cash but Skills have a PED value
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Almost true. Except that skills have absolutely no value at all (TT-value) and as such has no cost for MA to hand out. They also have no value to you as a player, from a financial standpoint (until you chip it out and trade it for MU to another player, at which point it has the value that they offer to pay)

I would also like to point out that codex rewards are not in PED value. You are awarded skill points equivalent to what you would gain from implanting a 25 PED implant. The value that you get from codex is the markup of a 25 ped esi filled with the skill of choice after deducting cost of esi
 
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