Should ALL useable items be crafted only

[Kitch]

I havent seen but am assuming this has come up dozens of times on forums.

Just thinking wouldn't it be better for all concerned if armour and weapons didnt drop from mobs?

And the bps for crap armour that uses rare's with huge MU? whats the point exactly? I suppose this is part of a bigger issue I have with loot, bp's and ingredients generally like why on earth animal oil res drops from mobs as well as bps :S and loads of other stuff..

But just sticking with the main for now, wouldn't it be best if all weapons and armour that people needed had to be crafted? I don't believe it would mean inflated MU by crafters as it would balance out, but yeah..

 

[XeroX2]

hmm I'd say MA was actually going in that general direction ~ during VU10. However the vast majority of the population hated it (because they can't be bothered to craft duh). So it seems to me like they are going into the opposite direction with weapon+armor mission rewards that can be obtained on a regular basis from an NPC. IMHO this general direction is better, because it allows the majority to play more/spend more ped without relying on crafters to provide the things they need to start a run. However it's a tricky balance and ofc it shouldn't shift too far away from crafters either. ^^

 

[Hypnotyk]

plus if there were no looted weapons/armors/etc, then it is easier to manipulate the market.. especially if only a select few can craft a hot item

 

[Neil Stockton]

And its harder for MA to control the drop rate of good UL items if they're crafted instead of looted.

 

[Kitten]

trouble is they need awesome item loot possibilities to keep hunters interested in hunting to hope for that uber item drop

 

[Vedder]

Should ALL useable items be crafted only?

Ehm.... No

 

[Andreso]

but if weapons, armors are all looted the what we need crafting for?

 

[remontoire]

And the bps for crap armour that uses rare's with huge MU? whats the point exactly?

Most of these didn't have such MU when initially made. Later on blueprints that turned out to be unbalancing using these arrived and the availability of the rare's went down a lot and huge MU was justified by the other uses.

 

[rastamannen]

I think everything should be crafted, even ammo...Ok hunting might be more boring without items but at least there would be more MU for everybody.
I think EU needs a norweigan reset. Just remove allt stuff in game and start all over so they can make things right.
Good UL items like weapons could still drop in loot, its not like they are raining on us anyway.

 

[Tycoon]

trouble is they need awesome item loot possibilities to keep hunters interested in hunting to hope for that uber item drop

yeah, I'm strictly in hunting/healing business...

I might consider quitting if no mobs dropped items!

 

[JohnCapital]

yeah, I'm strictly in hunting/healing business...

I might consider quitting if no mobs dropped items!

How about if, instead of Tiger harness, you looted the rare stackable item that's needed to craft it?

Fairly easy switch. Figure you need about 4-5 drops of the "control material" for every successfully crafted item. (Could be 3, but toss in bit more to cover idiots that will craft on condition.)

Not only is this just as easy to sell, but it also creates more market for the rest of the needed ingredients.

 

[SpikeBlack]

hmm I'd say MA was actually going in that general direction ~ during VU10. However the vast majority of the population hated it (because they can't be bothered to craft duh). So it seems to me like they are going into the opposite direction with weapon+armor mission rewards that can be obtained on a regular basis from an NPC. IMHO this general direction is better, because it allows the majority to play more/spend more ped without relying on crafters to provide the things they need to start a run. However it's a tricky balance and ofc it shouldn't shift too far away from crafters either. ^^

the problem then runs into what do you do with the loot as there'd be no crafters to buy it? If we can supply our own items from doing missions then the whole basis of the economy falls apart.

At the low levels the looted stuff is helpful and should be kept but the higher level items should all be crafted that way there's a market for the loot.

As has already been suggested armors, weapon and tool BP's should be simplified to only use 3-4 bulk stackables with one or two additions to make the difference. Then loot can be simplified and the number of stackables we currently have can be reduced.

Also the max tt value and decay should be reduced to encourage crafting of all levels which could result in a more vibrant economy. May be make the L stuff stackable so that you can buy several and just switch automatically rather than having to change key configs.

However the only thing that could result in making it easier would be for a maximum skill level and then we wouldn't need the continuous upward progression of items and mobs to keep up. Then we wouldn't need the BP's and their control materials to stop dropping to control things.

 

[Tycoon]

How about if, instead of Tiger harness, you looted the rare stackable item that's needed to craft it?

Fairly easy switch. Figure you need about 4-5 drops of the "control material" for every successfully crafted item. (Could be 3, but toss in bit more to cover idiots that will craft on condition.)

Not only is this just as easy to sell, but it also creates more market for the rest of the needed ingredients.

for one thing, being 95% disconnected from crafting, I don't know what's used to craft what... I don't want to be forced to learn either, for the sake of having to re-learn how to sell my loot...

and second, if I sell the mats, there's no guarantee those mats are used to make that Tiger harness... maybe something else that uses those mats has better markup or stats or something, Tiger harness might just get phased out like Isis LR's...

and how about Unlimited SIB items... take that away from hunting loot?!... so how's that work, you loot maybe some of the mats, and have to acquire the rest? and then find a trusted crafter to make it, hope there's no failure?... sounds like a major ripoff to the hunters to lose all item loots!

I think that kind of change is too drastic and unpredictable/uncontrollable... it's great for some and horrible for others, where changes this big should generally be good for everybody!

The way it is now, some items are only looted & some items are only crafted, and some items are both looted and/or crafted... it's good like that, it doesn't need to be swayed to all items are crafted...

crafting is expensive, you can't suddenly put that responsibility on the crafters of supplying the entire community with all the items! That's chaos!

as a hunter... you're telling me I'll never loot a weapon, or fap, or armor piece ever again? from now on I will only loot crafting mats? hey, take skill chips away while your at it! pffft

I also don't like the idea that the markup of items that were once only looted when hunting will be dictated by the availability and markup of the mats now used to craft them... that seems highly unstable to me!

I say boooooo!

 

[JohnCapital]

for one thing, being 95% disconnected from crafting, I don't know what's used to craft what... I don't want to be forced to learn either, for the sake of having to re-learn how to sell my loot...

What's to learn? You knew BTAUs were high MU at one point and you sold those on auction without knowing what they made. You knew output amp components were high MU and sold those. What's the difference?

 

[XeroX2]

the problem then runs into what do you do with the loot as there'd be no crafters to buy it? If we can supply our own items from doing missions then the whole basis of the economy falls apart.

At the low levels the looted stuff is helpful and should be kept but the higher level items should all be crafted that way there's a market for the loot.

IMHO this problem would be smaller than you might anticipate, simply because lots of people play EU in a kind of.... stupid way. So they would still be providing quite some demand.
It would certainly be less, so I agree with you that higher level items shouldn't be available from an NPC like that. I was quite surprised when I saw how high level some of the rewards are and I was already wondering if MA really thought that part through.

Rare high level items should stay in loot to provide motivation for the hunters, but should stay as rare as they are now, so it doesn't make that much of a difference for the economy.

 

[das]

My 2 pecs..
Most crafters atm are gamblers..
They click a huge amount cousing big fluctuations in mu (just check the gazz for lvl 2 amps)
nothing good can come from it, imo it's better to have a lower, more steady markup on regular loot.
I'm not even considering the (rare) UL drops.. If it wasn't for that UL HL15, R150, MOD LR53 or arcsparc I got in loot, I would be playing Project Ion..
Anyone who says let the crafters conrol markup either doesn't know this game or has a gambling addict.
I have a buffer of +20k ped to sell L stuff or stackables whenever I want to (mu is ok'ish)
The day I'm dependant from crafters is the day I sell my 40k ped TT hunting skills + gear + storage!
If anyone can name me 5 crafters who make a regular profit vs hunters, not counting uber uber loots, I might relook at things but atm.. most ppl who profit (doesn't matter how much & trading/resellers can FUCK OFF) are either hunting or mining

Das

 

[sidxx]

Should ALL useable items be crafted only

sure if you want the majority (if not every single one) of the heavy ped cyclers to quit, cash out and let the game and MA bleed out and shut down.

 

[Tycoon]

What's to learn? You knew BTAUs were high MU at one point and you sold those on auction without knowing what they made. You knew output amp components were high MU and sold those. What's the difference?

those are crafting mats, not ALL my loot is crafting mats...

the difference is when I can loot items by hunting that I use for hunting...
for example, I've recently been doing my Leviathan missions, and I looted a full set of Polaris (L), which I've been using to hunt Mind Reaver OA-Stalker... I'm sure there's a lot of hunters who target mobs that loot weapons and armor and faps they use... you're talking about taking that away from hunters!

crafters supply miners and hunters, and hunters and miners supply crafters... mining/crafting are already exclusive in that department, but hunting isn't the same as mining and crafting... we loot items we use, and use items we loot! and there's teams involved in hunting, there's also events, and limited-time mob spawns (migrations, mayhems, etc.)...

hunting can't be exclusively supplied by crafting, and loot only crafting mats like mining, because it's different than mining and crafting... I believe there's a lot more hunters, and they have to be able to support themselves and each other a little bit to keep everything balanced!

so instead of items, now I will instead loot what? more mats in place of those items?... so now there's a flood of these mats because it's all the hunters are getting, and their value drops? (we see this every time there's a robot war!... think about if it's permanent for all mobs!!!)...

Do the crafters start to suddenly buy out this new flood of mats and craft the items that are now missing from hunting loot? that's a lot more crafting to be done... I think this leads to lower markups for crafters when buying, higher markups for hunters when buying!

 

[Coz1969]

Short answer: NO!

Long answer: There would be several problems with all useable items being crated only, the least of which, imo, would be the lack of item drops in hunting loot.

The biggest thing I see happening is the market value of residue would skyrocket. This, in turn, would cause the price of these crafted items to skyrocket. Now, this would not matter with UL items, ofc, but any crafter who is NOT just crafting to gamble uses residue to insure full TT value of each success for (L) items. Considering that the majority of new items being introduced are (L), that's a lot of friggin' residue needed!

Also, considering there's generally a "rare" component of most of the really useful BP's, this would cause limited availability of said items, which would also cause the market value to skyrocket.

So, market value goes up on the "useful" items, miners and hunters decide they cannot afford to mine/hunt any longer, so necessary loot becomes even more rare. And, the cycle continues....

I am, however, for a series of looted "useful items" and then a series of crafted "useful items" that fill the skill gap, such as a crafted laser pistol that starts at about lvl 60/61... since there's not really anything between EP-54 (lvl 54) and L1200 (lvl 66)

 

[mastermesh]

Short answer: NO!

Long answer: There would be several problems with all useable items being crated only, the least of which, imo, would be the lack of item drops in hunting loot.

The biggest thing I see happening is the market value of residue would skyrocket. This, in turn, would cause the price of these crafted items to skyrocket. Now, this would not matter with UL items, ofc, but any crafter who is NOT just crafting to gamble uses residue to insure full TT value of each success for (L) items. Considering that the majority of new items being introduced are (L), that's a lot of friggin' residue needed!

Also, considering there's generally a "rare" component of most of the really useful BP's, this would cause limited availability of said items, which would also cause the market value to skyrocket.

So, market value goes up on the "useful" items, miners and hunters decide they cannot afford to mine/hunt any longer, so necessary loot becomes even more rare. And, the cycle continues....

I am, however, for a series of looted "useful items" and then a series of crafted "useful items" that fill the skill gap, such as a crafted laser pistol that starts at about lvl 60/61... since there's not really anything between EP-54 (lvl 54) and L1200 (lvl 66)

increase in markup of residue might not be such a bad thing since at least one type of residue comes from hunting.... if items in loot of mobs dropped, stuff like the markup on res would make up for the markup lost on those items, etc. It's all about balancing things out... eventually it'd all balance itself out as the market always does eventually.

 

[das]

have you ever tracked avg loot in res?
last 15070 ped hunt I looted 39.22 TT res.. how much you think mu should be to cover my item mu?

 

[remontoire]

The thread has very well highlighted one of the biggest problems in EU, that hunters consider themselves to be special.

 

[MG Mighty]

trouble is they need awesome item loot possibilities to keep hunters interested in hunting to hope for that uber item drop

Or puting it more simply:

Being a consumer which doesn't have a possibility of obtaining gains from the activity becomes only possible when the satisfaction obtained is worth the costs required.

Being an investor/worker satisfaction can be achieved by just taking a look at the gains obtained, sometimes no matter how dreadful the actual task is people will do it for the rewards they get from it.

The thread has very well highlighted one of the biggest problems in EU, that hunters consider themselves to be special.

Everybody should always try to defend their interests.

 

[aia]

sure if you want the majority (if not every single one) of the heavy ped cyclers to quit, cash out and let the game and MA bleed out and shut down.

Some of the Heavy PED cyclers have repairable gear (for instance LR63, HL-15, Genesis Sulfury, eggfaps from events) and for them it wouldn't change much.

As for myself, if I want big dmg/sec I have to use (L) gear, but if (L) gear turns too expensive I'd cut down on hunting and only hunt what I have to hunt using the gear I have (at about half my level). One example: Since I don't have Shadow, I ahve to use hermes/infiltrator to hunt bigger robots. If I can't get/maintain a full set, I have to step down to what I can hunt with my best repairable robot armor (hunter ME, ghost).

(I can't really say that there currently is a surplus on (F) infiltrator parts in auction... and I've sold off a few of my hermes parts because I noticed my shoulderguard was reaching 20 ped level and first there was Three with max TT, and next day there was none left.)

Now with robot event over, there isn't any panic for me though.

 

[Tycoon]

The thread has very well highlighted one of the biggest problems in EU, that hunters consider themselves to be special.

we are!

 

[aia]

The thread has very well highlighted one of the biggest problems in EU, that hunters consider themselves to be special.

Reason I've stayed hunting has been the (theoretical) chance to loot something nice, that I couldn't afford to buy with reasonable deposits. This has been pretty much from first or second year.

The professions has been like this from the start. When hunting, I don't expect to get a rare Blueprint. And as long as I'm only hunting, I don't expect to learn what minerals that are inside a specific area, or get a Tower of a high markup ore.

 

[rastamannen]

Well i dont see the problem with items only being crafted. MA can reduce fails drasticly and make every click more expensive by using much TT value of oils and such and a few rares to make it harder to click. I think its kinda pointless to stand and craft stuff that dont have any value at all and just put it in TT when youre done. I would prefer if crafters would have to use their brain as well.
If hunting became cheaper or more profitable wouldnt it be better or do u guys prefer loosing peds?
I think UL uber items still should drop in loot but not L stuff.
I dont now how much ped i cycled in this game but its probably alot, ive managed to loot 2 manta K5 smugglers as my only UL drops of significant value (sold for around 4500 a piece). Its not like its raining stuff anyway.

 

[Vedder]

The thread has very well highlighted one of the biggest problems in EU, that hunters consider themselves to be special.

Hunters are special.

In the sense that 90% of the turnover are generated though hunting, and thus the MU in hunting is by far the lowest of all the professions.


OP basically suggests that more of the hunting MU (nearly none already) should be moved to the crafters. Ofc hunters disagree.

 

[Doer]

Yeah, as has been mentioned, this was "tried" and then MA got greedy and lazy.

Let me qualify that. How was it "tried": when (L) items were introduced, there were only a few unlimited SIB weapons, notably, the Opalo and the m2100 (in tt). At that point, the game could have gone a different way by having (UL) drops be extremely rare, and everything else either crafted or looted. The ratio between crafted and looted could be adjusted as seemed best, because with an (L) economy, there's constant churn.

Then MA decided that they wanted to tie up high amounts of PEDs in high tt items, and instituted a 50% minimum tt on UL SIB items, and UL SIBs became a common drop in uberloots.

After several years, the strategy changed at MA (lots of dead PEDs is only useful when the PEDs came from deposits, so here's a better plan...) and they released those PEDs again by making the minimum condition 3% again, and new UL SIBs had lower tts. By then the strategy had become to use UL SIBs as bribes to get players to output like crazy in increasingly frequent competitive events, and PP competed for players with increasingly good UL weapons in increasingly more common drops.

UL weapons have become so common now that we're seeing decreasing markup in loots and minerals due to the decreased importance and demand for crafting as a profession. So we've actually gone about as far to the opposite extreme from the proposal as we can. And the problem is, with UL items you can't just shift the balance around and wait for the old items to clear the system. The only way to cause a sea change is to make old unlimited items obsolete. Hmm, so maybe we can release new items with higher dpp, better durability, etc. and raise the bar?

And it's been done (and was discussed in that thread about RT). The problem with that strategy is that each time you do it, there are less suckers willing to pay high MU for the UL gear that drops because they see that both the usefulness and MU of the UL gear is constantly decreasing, and there are still the old UL gear around, even if it is less efficient, and there are still going to be people willing to use it for convenience and thus not consume (L). And in the end you have minimal markup on everything and nobody hunts or mines or crafts except the gamblers because there's no MU to be had or hope for a nice high MU loot.

That's how it was "tried". By the lazy part i mean that designing and balancing an economy where everything goes through several trophic levels is a lot harder than the current setup where there are at most a couple levels of use stacked up for most things. Considering how poorly even the present loot is being balanced, it may be just as well we didn't go toward a more crafted economy.

 

[mastermesh]

Considering how poorly even the present loot is being balanced, it may be just as well we didn't go toward a more crafted economy.

In the end it's all pixels on a server... The problem is people have come to rely on "markup as a form of income"... which is kinda, sorta but not quite like a ponzi or pyramid scheme on some levels.

"Eventually" you run out of suckers willing to part with the cash easily... or who figure out that the markup isn't really worth what the in game stats say they are worth since much of that markup is artificially inflated by either artificially low demand created by the game designers or artificially high markup auctions by resellers... Entropia Universe gets closer that that "eventually" each year it exists, especially a alternative mmos of higher quality and re-playability increase (and as bugs, exploits other issues of that nature that are brought to the game designers attention remain ignored for weeks, months, and eventually years (and in a few years - decades, assuming the game doesn't implode by reaching the "eventually" before the time the TWENTY event comes)).