Speed exploit or Positional geometry?

[Darth Revan]

While that seems to be correct what isn't so clear, or discussed or proven are a few discrepancies for example if the angle of intercept is small is it possible to get in range to shoot down an enemy? The distance gained would be too small or the intercept angle would tend towards infinity therefore making it unrealistic to shoot down an enemy.

When both ships are leaving a space station it's very likely that the intercept angle for the pirate ship would be too small to allow him to catch up and kill its target.

I.e. It all depends on the intercept angle and initial gap between the two ships if distance gap is large and intercept angle very low it doesn't seem to me to be feasible to be able to catch up.

I would like to know as well how long it would take someone to catch up?
Are we talking a few seconds or are they going to be chasing you half the way to ark to take you down?
From what Ive seen when i've been shot down (don't carry loot with me so i just thank for the skills) is that the attacker catches up extremely quickly from not being in view and once shot down is on me in less than 1 second to kill my avatar.

Again pointing out that I don't care about being shot down, just curious as to the maths behind the time...we seem to have covered distance.

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

You would be surprised to learn just how effective this technique is and the distances and time needed to be effective. OZtwo came up just to test if what I have said here was possible. He couldn't even believe it and accused me of exploiting during the test LOL.

That's not really scientific or anything. What was the rough initial angle and distances in this particular test?

What would be interesting to know is the minimum angle and distance needed to be able to catch up e.g. if angle is zero and distance is large it's impossible to catch up that's probably a fact. If angle is 1 degree and distance is large again I would assume it's impossible to catch up. At what point does it become possible to catch up?

 

[Xane]

That's not really scientific or anything. What was the rough initial angle and distances in this particular test?

What would be interesting to know is the minimum angle and distance needed to be able to catch up e.g. if angle is zero and distance is large it's impossible to catch up that's probably a fact. If angle is 1 degree and distance is large again I would assume it's impossible to catch up. At what point does it become possible to catch up?

You will need to do your own testing if you want the numbers. I'm not running a clinic XD

 

[JD RACING]

the only way to catch up is a large angle and he has to know were your going he has to aim ahead for his direction
to catch up

depending on how far he from you from the start small angle he has to be very close big angle 45degree or more he can be pretty far from you to catch up

but he has to point his ship to were your going and head that way that the only way he will get you

 

[Norbert]

That's not really scientific or anything. What was the rough initial angle and distances in this particular test?

What would be interesting to know is the minimum angle and distance needed to be able to catch up e.g. if angle is zero and distance is large it's impossible to catch up that's probably a fact. If angle is 1 degree and distance is large again I would assume it's impossible to catch up. At what point does it become possible to catch up?

I guess using strafe left/right you could catch up (creating the angle), kinda like tacking when sailing. Although not for wind but to gain extra diagonal movement.

 

[atomicstorm]

It is the debate that doesn't end..

It goes on and on my friend..

They just... started debating it, not knowing what it was..

And they'll keep debating it, only just because...

<repeat>


... and f*** me.. I have that stuck in my head now. Good job 5 bucks.

 

[Darth Revan]

It is the debate that doesn't end..

It goes on and on my friend..

They just... started debating it, not knowing what it was..

And they'll keep debating it, only just because...

<repeat>


... and f*** me.. I have that stuck in my head now. Good job 5 bucks.

Thanks now I have it stuck in my head

 

[AlphaGeek]

Where:
A = distance between parallel flight paths
B = distance between target and interceptor

A^2 + B^2 = C^2

C = the distance the interceptor must travel compared to B for the target.

C is always more than B if speed is constant between the two craft.

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

I guess using strafe left/right you could catch up (creating the angle), kinda like tacking when sailing. Although not for wind but to gain extra diagonal movement.

If that is true then perhaps MA should correct that to make it harder

Where:
A = distance between parallel flight paths
B = distance between target and interceptor

A^2 + B^2 = C^2

C = the distance the interceptor must travel compared to B for the target.

C is always more than B if speed is constant between the two craft.

You've quoted Pythagoras theorem but C seems a bit confusing. If I understand you correctly you mean C is the distance between the two crafts along the parallel flight paths? Isn't the formula then incorrect? I thought C was the hypotenuse which should be the direct distance between the two ships?

Anyway if we consider C to be the direct distance between the two ships then it doesn't need to be zero to catch up only within firing range. So not really too sure what your trying to say here?

Perhaps you should have it like this:
B = vertical distance between two ships
A = horizontal distance between two ships (i.e. along parallel flight paths)
C = direct distance between two ships

then A^2 + B^2 = C^2

 

[jetsina]

Just wanted to say thanks for your answer xane, although it is already a few pages back.

New people seem to have discovered the thread and we are getting the same 'learning curve' all over again lol. (or not learning?)
This may be the very beginnings of space academy tales of the 'space stone age', when sides battled out the theory of interception, with the odd walnut thrown in for IQ purposes .

After this one, can we start up on the Monty Hall problem, or something?

 

[atomicstorm]

Just wanted to say thanks for your answer xane, although it is already a few pages back.

New people seem to have discovered the thread and we are getting the same 'learning curve' all over again lol. (or not learning?)
This may be the very beginnings of space academy tales of the 'space stone age', when sides battled out the theory of interception, with the odd walnut thrown in for IQ purposes .

After this one, can we start up on the Monty Hall problem, or something?

I prefer the mr. Bean paradox

 

[Eli]

Dear lord, this is the most geometry I've had in... decades.... and I love it!

 

[Xane]

Dear lord, this is the most geometry I've had in... decades.... and I love it!

Glad your enjoying it


Another illustration.

 

[messi91]

Glad your enjoying it


Another illustration.

This will get you faster ---> M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M
Guaranteed no pirate will catch you unless he got third party software or exploit, we all know mega amateurs don't know how to fix what's important.

 

[atomicstorm]

This will get you faster ---> M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M
Guaranteed no pirate will catch you unless he got third party software or exploit, we all know mega amateurs don't know how to fix what's important.

And here you were just celebrating the next target pvp bug fix...

 

[Xane]

This will get you faster ---> M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M
Guaranteed no pirate will catch you unless he got third party software or exploit, we all know mega amateurs don't know how to fix what's important.

Doesn't work.

 

[sloth]

This will get you faster ---> M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M
Guaranteed no pirate will catch you unless he got third party software or exploit, we all know mega amateurs don't know how to fix what's important.

Also try this, When they come at you at the angle posted above, turn your ship to go parallel while not button mashing M. They will still catch you.

I've tried it, explain that Xane

 

[Yoshii Lem]

This is a mix of academia and flaming.
Reminds me of elementary school. Class learning time and the school yard















#space_flight ~ where pilots advertise to grow their business

 

[atomicstorm]

This is a mix of academia and flaming.
Reminds me of elementary school. Class learning time and the school yard















#space_flight ~ where pilots advertise to grow their business

Oh yea??? Well, your momma!

 

[Rocket192]

Glad your enjoying it


Another illustration.

Instead of the distance between the jets being across the y plane it would now be across the x plane...

really... the concept is flawed because the jets would be going the exact same speed.. the distance between them would decrease across the y plane, but increase proportionately across the x plane..

in other words, by the time the intercepting flight pattern crossed the pattern of the parallel flight pattern, you would be behind the parallel jet at the same distance you were across from him... aka no distance between the two would be lost...

This is because speed remains constant and technically, if you measure both flight patters, the intercepting pattern is actually longer. so no, not an exploit and not an advantage... unless the intercepting flight has more speed than the parallel flight, which would make this irrelevant anyways.

basic maths

 

[Me Really Never]

it would be nice and a little more realistic if we would be anywhere near the planets surface in space (on the map where you would enter the planet when flying to it) when leaving the planet. that way a pirate would not exactly know where a player would spawn which would get them to work at least a little for their practically non existent earnings. for more immersion i would suggest the same when entering the planet. random places would be best or at least a few different ones depending on leaving / entering location
because why would a space ship that is leaving the planets atmosphere be suddenly at the space station, no matter what side of the planet he left. doesnt make any sense

 

[Sionkiewicz]

GOD!! STOP PLEASE!!

This flight sim guide gives a good explanation for what Xane has stated. He is right that it allows you to catch up enough to get guns on target.

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_038a.html

Lead Pursuit
Lead pursuit is used to close on the bandit and is also used for gun shots. Flying a lead pursuit course is the fastest way to get to the bandit because you cut him off in the sky. The problem with establishing a lead pursuit course too early is that you will overshoot the bandit when you get in close unless you have a significant turn rate advantage. If you are fighting a similar aircraft, such as the MiG-29, you will not normally be able to stay in lead and will be forced into an overshoot. It is important, however, to establish lead pursuit at the proper time in the fight because it is the only way that you can get into the gun envelope.

 

[jetsina]

basic maths

how clearly do people need to explain stuff to people who are wrong? I'd have thought the diagrams to be plenty clear as to what is going on.

As for those saying the "coming from the same space station" stuff, I imagine that the pirate was not also inside, but waiting high or low, for example, outside. Oh, look at the distance thinks the poor victim; he won't be able to catch me, and then flies off. Wrong!

This is, of course, only flagging up how pirates can often catch up WITHOUT any cheating, but this IS the topic xane has chosen, and he has every right to do so....

 

[AlphaGeek]

If that is true then perhaps MA should correct that to make it harder

If I understand you correctly you mean C is the distance between the two crafts along the parallel flight paths? Isn't the formula then incorrect? I thought C was the hypotenuse which should be the direct distance between the two ships?

If he's intercepting, then his course is not parallel and his course *is* the hypotenuse of a right sided triangle conisisting of A ( the distance from his target's course baseline and his theoretically parallel original course) and B (the course of his target).

The hypotenuse is always the long side of a right triangle. You cant close the distance unless you're going faster.

 

[jetsina]

If he's intercepting, then his course is not parallel and his course *is* the hypotenuse of a right sided triangle conisisting of A ( the distance from his target's course baseline and his theoretically parallel original course) and B (the course of his target).

The hypotenuse is always the long side of a right triangle. You cant close the distance unless you're going faster.

For the nth time: it's not 'closing the distance' (to zero), it is 'reducing the distance!' That is what you need to do to get into range.
I think I wrote on something like the first page (without the better diagrams) you can take a triangle, where you are 1 unit away sideways and you choose an "intercept" at a point 1 unit ahead of the victim. The hypotenuse is root of 2 = 1.414 long. Ater flying that distance, your victim has already overshot by .414, yes, but the distance between the two ships is not the original 1 - it is that 0.414. (which is less than at the start!)

Frankly I think the diagrams told the story better, but I described it in words........

 

[cotton]

triangles

On the subject of triangles...I like pie!

most constructive post it 24 pages....

 

[Lefty]

If that is true then perhaps MA should correct that to make it harder



You've quoted Pythagoras theorem but C seems a bit confusing. If I understand you correctly you mean C is the distance between the two crafts along the parallel flight paths? Isn't the formula then incorrect? I thought C was the hypotenuse which should be the direct distance between the two ships?

Anyway if we consider C to be the direct distance between the two ships then it doesn't need to be zero to catch up only within firing range. So not really too sure what your trying to say here?

Perhaps you should have it like this:
B = vertical distance between two ships
A = horizontal distance between two ships (i.e. along parallel flight paths)
C = direct distance between two ships

then A^2 + B^2 = C^2

If:
A = distance from Ship A' to Destination 1;
B = distance from Ship B' to Destination 1;
C = difference in travel times of ships A' and B';
Ships A' and B' are both travelling at the same speed;
Then:
C = A - B

Hire a taxi today!

 

[Xane]

in other words, by the time the intercepting flight pattern crossed the pattern of the parallel flight pattern, you would be behind the parallel jet at the same distance you were across from him... aka no distance between the two would be lost...

This is because speed remains constant and technically, if you measure both flight patters, the intercepting pattern is actually longer. so no, not an exploit and not an advantage... unless the intercepting flight has more speed than the parallel flight, which would make this irrelevant anyways.

basic maths

The hypotenuse is always the long side of a right triangle. You cant close the distance unless you're going faster.

If you really don't think its possible to reduce the distance between two ships using this technique then please use the below illustration and point where the it's flawed.

 

[Xane]

Also try this, When they come at you at the angle posted above, turn your ship to go parallel while not button mashing M. They will still catch you.

I've tried it, explain that Xane

What you described, assuming the chasing ship was still out of range when you turned parallel, is not possible without a difference in ship speed on either the chasers end or your end.

 

[JD RACING]

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=306536&c=20

here a proper pic he can catch you if he knows were your going and set his distanation to the direction to were your going not your ship

if he leave behind you were you left from he cant catch you but if he far anouf from you that you think your safe but he in the same distance to were you going even you not close anouf to shoot you from the start there will be a time he will and can

sorry i dont know how to post a pic up