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The 50% amp rule - change it pls!

Naomi

Naomi

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Naomi NP Polder
The 50% amp rule, I don't remember when exactly it was introduced, but let me explain for those who haven't been that long among us.

In the old days (I think around vu 9.6), you could put any amp on any weapon of the same category. This means you could put for instance a 24dmg amp, on an opalo !

Somewhere along the road MA made the decision to change this, probably to encourage people to upgrade to higher lvl (and higher decaying) weaponry. The current rule on this is, that an amp can add a maximum of 50% damage on any weapon, therefore disabling the use of big amps on small weapons.

I do understand the nature of this measure, although in my opinion putting an A104 on an opallo brings more decay for MA, then putting no amp on a bigger gun.
However, due to this rule they have given un unfair advantage to slower guns. Allow me to explain.
Fast guns do lower damage per shot then slow guns with the same dps. Therefore GUNS WITH ABOUT THE SAME DPS CANNOT USE THE SAME KIND OF AMPS. I find this highly unfair. Yes I am not objective, since I am a mod merc user myself, but I think you can understand the picture.

I also understand that an opallo with a shear pro900 on it would be stupid, and there is an existance purpose to a certain limitation.

I therefore suggest to raise the maximum added damage added by amps from 50% to 100%, to give back the competitive edge to fast guns such as the mod mercs.

It is kind'a frustrating and stupid to have one of the best and very expensive guns in game (mod merc), while not being able to compete with SLOWER GUNS ?!?
The same way the 50% rule for L blades/faps etc got revised, I think it is time to do this for the 50% rule for amps!

Thanks
 
I totally agree Naomi.

There definitely needs to be a limit on amp size but the game is progressing and rules need to be changed to keep balance. 100% seems like a very fair amount.
 
Ahhh... I remember those days.

But I know why it was changed. You cited the exact reasoning, opalo w/A103 was my regular loadout, and I heard so regularly of ubers hunting in teams with opalo/A204 amps, dishing out such loads of damage on (if I recall the math right) an insane eco of over 7.0 (for those unfamiliar, the Mod Merc and Imk2 in a true ubers hands overage around 4.0+ eco). I always thought it was so funny to go hunting with my opalo and have higher eco than ubers with their Imk2's and MM's. Occasionally I'd throw an Eamp15 on the opalo, just to hunt something a little bigger... hell of a repair bill, but man was it fun!

You wonder "oh man when I started I could hunt for a month on $20"... well that was why. Weapons were TOO eco for their level. I could hunt with a delta/dante combo, and my eco/damage was well above what my current eco/damage is for my CURRENT level (without using UL SIB weaponry).

I dislike the amp restriction, but it's there for a reason, IMO.
The *only* way I could conceive it being brought back and NOT wrecking the entirety of the eco-community and loot return ratios, is if there is a geometric progression of decay/ammo consumption for "overcharging" the weapons, to compensate. We have tier dmg enhancers already - and more than enough people are willing to pay to increase their damage. What's another 5~15% decay/ammo cost to those people?

I can understand your frustration. But realize MA, Planet Calypso - no one ever has put a guarantee that MM's (f.ex.) would remain the best weapon in the game. Realizing that less than a dozen "old time" weapons have retained their market value (imk2, MM being two of them off the top of my head) due to eco/dmg combo, it may well be time they drop to a much more affordable level, due in part to becoming reduced on the hierarchy, and something new take their place, be it L, UL/SIB combo, or regular UL weaponry.
 
Naomi said:
It is kind'a frustrating and stupid to have one of the best and very expensive guns in game (mod merc), while not being able to compete with SLOWER GUNS ?!?
Click to expand...


Don't worry naomi, one problem will fix itself pretty soon (the markup of the mod merc that is so high :))
Let's face it the old style guns are slowly becoming guns of the past.
 
Naomi said:
Somewhere along the road MA made the decision to change this, probably to encourage people to upgrade to higher lvl (and higher decaying) weaponry. The current rule on this is, that an amp can add a maximum of 50% damage on any weapon, therefore disabling the use of big amps on small weapons.
Click to expand...

they also had a reasonable amount encouragement from a group of players that didn't like the nubs could put any amp on an opalo to change it as well.
 
Yeah, Bring back those Maddox IV with Dante!
 
So this suggestion actually exacerbates the situation it is trying to address.

if max amp contribution is raised to 100% of weapon base max dam then the slower but higher dam per click gun can still have a larger amp than the lower dam per click gun. In fact, assuming large enough amps exist it can add even bigger amps with even more damage contribution than is available to the low dam per click gun.

Personally I think that if you are smart about the amp you use, then you get better value putting it on a fast but lower damage gun as the presumably good eco amp forms a greater proportion of the overall damage per click => better dpp.
 
It would raise the overall dps and in response MA would increase hp/regen of mobs, so in the end everyone (except for MA) would lose.

Look what happens around, the better guns we get - the more nerfed become the mobs, the more eco the guns become - the more misses (ah, my bad, mob's evades) we see and the crappier becomes the loot. It's a rush to nowhere. MA like a sly genie gladly fulfills all your wishes - with unexpected and unwanted twists.
 
I agree, I want to hunt.

I can't afford to hunt anymore.

So having this would mean I can work something out!!
 
Naomi said:
It is kind'a frustrating and stupid to have one of the best and very expensive guns in game (mod merc), while not being able to compete with SLOWER GUNS ?!?
Click to expand...

Well, you said it by yourself. The fast guns would benefit too much especially Mod Merc. Sure people would like it but is it balanced - no. If they although remove the limit, I demand them to let me amp my Cannons and Mini-Sweepers ;)
 
There's one reason MA nerfed the amps to 50%. To earn more money. To change it to 100% now would mean they'd effectively lose 50% more than now. And then they'd have to nerf the mobs more regen to compensate. The only way they'd add this would be if by some miracle MA ain't driven by greed anymore. And the recent steps in the past has shown that is not the case.
 
If a gun has a lower dam a shot and is faster its accually maximizing youre amp use , making it even more eco compared do a very high dam /shot weapon.

It would also give the owners of the omegaton laser amps a very unfair advantage over the new players (especially now since we not sure , but can assume that laser amps wont drop anymore).

The eco of any omgaton amp is very high compared to other damage dealers in game and some restriction on options to use are defenetly needed (the un restricted amping was one of the reason they got close to bankrupt years back).

The more decay you mention with a104 on a opalo has a tiny flaw.. you get return on the amp decay so MA wont make much of it. fact is you stil be getting 4dpp minimal for the damage of the amp and with that return. So the claim it wil create more decay is a bithollow in my opinion seeing that decay wil be directly tied to a return it gives (How much and if it can be dun eco and/or what % of return it has is totally dif discussion).

In short very bad idear.
 
I didn't think much before posting this but isn't:

fast weapon with 100 DPS + amp 50% = 150 DPS

slow weapon with 100 DPS + amp 50% = 150 DPS

:scratch2:
 
AxeMurderer said:
I didn't think much before posting this but isn't:

fast weapon with 100 DPS + amp 50% = 150 DPS

slow weapon with 100 DPS + amp 50% = 150 DPS

:scratch2:
Click to expand...

Unless your "fast" weapon has too small dmg per shot to fit, say, Dante, on it. That's what she meant.
 
Assuming both weapons are maxed won't you get more misses / evades due to having to fire more often with the fast weapon.
 
Things are good the way they are now, thanks.
 
Naomi said:
However, due to this rule they have given un unfair advantage to slower guns. Allow me to explain.
Fast guns do lower damage per shot then slow guns with the same dps. Therefore GUNS WITH ABOUT THE SAME DPS CANNOT USE THE SAME KIND OF AMPS. I find this highly unfair. Yes I am not objective, since I am a mod merc user myself, but I think you can understand the picture.

I therefore suggest to raise the maximum added damage added by amps from 50% to 100%, to give back the competitive edge to fast guns such as the mod mercs.

It is kind'a frustrating and stupid to have one of the best and very expensive guns in game (mod merc), while not being able to compete with SLOWER GUNS ?!?
The same way the 50% rule for L blades/faps etc got revised, I think it is time to do this for the 50% rule for amps!

Thanks
Click to expand...

All this is completely incorrect and everything is actually the other way around.

Fast guns have ALLWAYS been better than slow guns because you get more dps out of the amps. The amp adds a fixed ammount of damage which is multiplied by your attack speed, everytime you fire you get your amps +dmg. Amping a mod merc is much much much better than amping a tango (putting a a204 on a mod merc adds more dps than an evil on a ML-35 most likely). And also the faster the gun shoots and the bigger portion of damage that comes from your amp the better since a larger percent of your damage output is done by the amp which has better eco than the gun itself (this also makes fast L guns last longer because every hunt more of your ped is cycled through the repairable amp rather than the L gun). Slow guns suck except for PvP where you need high damage per shot.
 
SpikeBlack said:
Assuming both weapons are maxed won't you get more misses / evades due to having to fire more often with the fast weapon.
Click to expand...

No, as the hit rate and average damage are constants.

EDIT: eh? sure you get more misses if you fire more shots but it doesn't affect dmg/sec

AxeMurderer said:
I didn't think much before posting this but isn't:

fast weapon with 100 DPS + amp 50% = 150 DPS

slow weapon with 100 DPS + amp 50% = 150 DPS

:scratch2:
Click to expand...

In this hypothetical situation yes.
 
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<Medusa> said:
Fast guns have ALWAYS been better than slow guns because you get more dps out of the amps. The amp adds a fixed ammount of damage which is multiplied by your attack speed, everytime you fire you get your amps +dmg. Amping a mod merc is much much much better than amping a tango
Click to expand...
Tango is ofc bad exemple, let's compare it to foeripper.

What you say is not correct. The 'fixed amount of damage' cannot be used by the mod merc due to the 50% amp rule:
all in effective damage:

8 tiers, 33dmg amps
Foeripper: 146.8 dps
Mod Merc: 153.0 dps

8 tiers, 50dmg amps:
Foeripper: 158.4 dps
Mod Merc: 153.5 dps (33.5 maximum, can't use the 50 dmg)

Mod merc is thrown out of the competition league because of this, and rather impossible to win big events.

+ using big amps on mod merc is WAY more expensive then on foeripper, since amps decay every shot.
A mod merc decays an equal amp 47% faster, while giving the same damage increase, thus making event hunting much more expensive then with Foeripper.
 
Naomi said:
Tango is ofc bad exemple, let's compare it to foeripper.

What you say is not correct. The 'fixed amount of damage' cannot be used by the mod merc due to the 50% amp rule:
all in effective damage:

8 tiers, 33dmg amps
Foeripper: 146.8 dps
Mod Merc: 153.0 dps

8 tiers, 50dmg amps:
Foeripper: 158.4 dps
Mod Merc: 153.5 dps (33.5 maximum, can't use the 50 dmg)

Mod merc is thrown out of the competition league because of this, and rather impossible to win big events.

+ using big amps on mod merc is WAY more expensive then on foeripper, since amps decay every shot.
A mod merc decays an equal amp 47% faster, while giving the same damage increase, thus making event hunting much more expensive then with Foeripper.
Click to expand...

No you are still completely wrong. That has nothing to do with speed of weapons at all. All you are saying is that putting a to big amp on a gun is bad, which of course it is.

Even your own example with the 33 damage amps shows you that a modmerc which has lower dps than a foeripper (booth unamped) gets MORE dps than a foeripper using the same amp, just because it shoots faster.
 
<Medusa> said:
No you are still completely wrong. That has nothing to do with speed of weapons at all. All you are saying is that putting a to big amp on a gun is bad, which of course it is.

Even your own example with the 33 damage amps shows you that a modmerc which has lower dps than a foeripper (booth unamped) gets MORE dps than a foeripper using the same amp, just because it shoots faster.
Click to expand...

Please don't try to put worths in my mouth that I did not say, I find that offensive.
In a civilized discussion people say 'No, I think it is this way', and not 'No, you are completely wrong'. One shoudl not act as if his personal opinion is the only possible universal correct one. A little modesty is not a bad thing you know.

Obviously a faster gun gets more dps out of an amp (per second), and one also pays the markup for that. That is the main advantage of a fast gun. The heavier the amp, the more advantage for a fast gun.

comparing them unamped:
Foeripper: 101dmg x 59 attacks = 5959
Mod Merc: 67 dmg x 86 attacs = 5762

comparing them amped at 100%
Foeripper 202dmg x 59 attacks = 11918
Mod Merc: 134 x 86 attacks = 11524

The foeripper still keeps its advantage as you see. The only limit is the existing amps, which is equally for everyone. And since there are bigger amps coming, the foeripper will KEEP its advantage.
However, with the current 50% limit, the mod merc will fall behind further and further, which makes it useless for events.
 
Naomi said:
Please don't try to put worths in my mouth that I did not say, I find that offensive.
In a civilized discussion people say 'No, I think it is this way', and not 'No, you are completely wrong'. One shoudl not act as if his personal opinion is the only possible universal correct one. A little modesty is not a bad thing you know.

Obviously a faster gun gets more dps out of an amp (per second), and one also pays the markup for that. That is the main advantage of a fast gun. The heavier the amp, the more advantage for a fast gun.

comparing them unamped:
Foeripper: 101dmg x 59 attacks = 5959
Mod Merc: 67 dmg x 86 attacs = 5762

comparing them amped at 100%
Foeripper 202dmg x 59 attacks = 11918
Mod Merc: 134 x 86 attacks = 11524

The foeripper still keeps its advantage as you see. The only limit is the existing amps, which is equally for everyone. And since there are bigger amps coming, the foeripper will KEEP its advantage.
However, with the current 50% limit, the mod merc will fall behind further and further, which makes it useless for events.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'm sorry if I've been rude but there is no personal opinion in math and there is a universal and correct result when calculating things. I think we might be discussing two diffent things here, I pointed out that speed is allways better on guns because it increases the amount of damage output by your amp. This isn't my opinion it's just a fact.
The example of doubling both weapons damage is of course not going to change the outcome since it's just both weapons x2, I don't see how it's relevant.

If weapons could take amps having the same damage as the weapons max damage mod merc would be insanely overpowered because it scales so much better with added damage than the other guns. If this was possible mod merc would have by far the highest dps of any gun in game, be the most eco and have higher range than most other guns. (unless a 101 dmg blp amp was also added)
 
Naomi said:
Please don't try to put worths in my mouth that I did not say, I find that offensive.
In a civilized discussion people say 'No, I think it is this way', and not 'No, you are completely wrong'. One shoudl not act as if his personal opinion is the only possible universal correct one. A little modesty is not a bad thing you know.

Obviously a faster gun gets more dps out of an amp (per second), and one also pays the markup for that. That is the main advantage of a fast gun. The heavier the amp, the more advantage for a fast gun.

comparing them unamped:
Foeripper: 101dmg x 59 attacks = 5959
Mod Merc: 67 dmg x 86 attacs = 5762

comparing them amped at 100%
Foeripper 202dmg x 59 attacks = 11918
Mod Merc: 134 x 86 attacks = 11524

The foeripper still keeps its advantage as you see. The only limit is the existing amps, which is equally for everyone. And since there are bigger amps coming, the foeripper will KEEP its advantage.
However, with the current 50% limit, the mod merc will fall behind further and further, which makes it useless for events.
Click to expand...

And I was going to events with Isis LR32 :ahh:

comparing them unamped:
Foeripper: 101dmg x 59 attacks = 5959
Mod Merc: 67 dmg x 86 attacs = 5762

comparing them with amp 50%:
Foeripper: 101dmg x 59 attacks = 5959 x 1,5
Mod Merc: 67 dmg x 86 attacs = 5762 x 1,5

comparing them with amp 100%:
Foeripper: 101dmg x 59 attacks = 5959 x 2
Mod Merc: 67 dmg x 86 attacs = 5762 x 2

comparing them with amp 200%:
Foeripper: 101dmg x 59 attacks = 5959 x 4
Mod Merc: 67 dmg x 86 attacs = 5762 x 4

I'm not sure at what point do you expect Mod Merc to make more damage than the Foeripper :scratch2:
May be if they make 100% limit for the Mod Merc and keep 50% for otehr guns
 
Ah well maybe this thread was a bad idea after all.

It just feels so wrong,
- having the best gun in game, and not being able to use any amp better then the mid level shear pro600. Maybe your math is better then mine, idk
This is kind'a ruining fun and game experience for me, isn't that against EULA? :p
Having the best gun in game, and not being able to outdamage other guns lol

On top of that, the new improved and hypercharged evils... will make this only worse for me I guess.
bigger UL amps for Foerippers.
That means when I go to an event, I'll have to use shear pro600's and won't be able to compete with a foe + hypercharged evil amp, which is even repairable lol.
Ah hell fuck events, I better spent my money irl. Anyone interested in the AMM?
 
point of this thread - "my extremely badass gun isnt badass enough *sob*"
 
Naomi said:
Ah well maybe this thread was a bad idea after all.

It just feels so wrong,
- having the best gun in game
Click to expand...
It obviously ain't the best gun in-game anymore. Not for events at least.

Making an suggestion as this without thinking how it would affect everyone else and MA <removed>.

Half of the weapons in the game would drop in value by half if not more. The ones that do big enough dmg already for bigger amps. But you don't care because you got your mod merc. Be happy with what you got, if you ain't happy sell it and get a foeripper + overcharged a204. They do not change the game because you asked for it. They only change the game if they deem it necessary (if they'll make more money). That's MA's motto.
 
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