Help: The Brainstorming

[TheOneOmega]

I am looking to stand in front of a single mob and get attacked a large number of times, in order to log the defensive skills gains. I will do this for three different mobs (Bristlehog Young, Telzapod Young, Trilomite Young) and post the results for analysis. My hypothesis, based on experience, is that a single mob will give a limited supply of skill, and then the green lines will stop appearing, or at least slow down exponentially. I would like to get some numbers to support this, and I would also like to compare results from the three different mobs.

I see two hurdles thus far. The first is that I do not want to gain any unrelated skill during the test, so I need a healer (also because I'm PED poor and cannot afford to spend the cost of healing myself for so long ), but in case my hypothesis is somewhere in the ballpark, I do not want the healer to gain any of the skill (how a single mob distributes skill to a group of people would be a different experiment, which may build on the conclusions of this test; I think it is important to not skip this simplified test). I need to keep my healer completely outside the reach of the mob.

The second is that I need to build some sort of ratio to express the skill gain (I will measure both green lines and TT volume, for future analysis). This is actually part of the aftermath analysis, but it definitely influences how the test needs to be run. Physical time (green-lines/sec and TT-volume/sec) won't be very meaningful, since A) the mob is likely to TRY attacking the healer for part of the time, even if he or she is out of reach, and B) the results would be super dependent on Dodge level (also the random hit factor unless the tests were run for a FUDGE TON of hours). Another possibility is green-lines/damage-message and TT-volume/damage-message. However, mobs sometimes deliver a defensive skill gain even when an attack misses (this is a kinda recent change to EU). I don't know whether the odds of a defensive skill gain depend on whether the attack connects or not, and if so, to what degree. Measuring this would take an eternity, I imagine. The final possibility is to visually count the number of times each mobs attacks me, number of hits, misses, number of skills from hits, skills from misses, etc. This would be hideously painful, since I planned on spending AROUND an hour or so on each mob, and would be very prone to error, since the data would not be written to the chat log for verification.

Any ideas for overcoming or working around these two roadblocks? Anyone else interested in the results and wanna volunteer to be the healer once we figure it out? Anyone wanna get my account banned for caring about such stupid matters?

 

[Immortal]

Just do a normal hunt using the same weapon setup 500ped ammo using your weapon of choice, and every gain using skillscanner before/after, and save your chatlog files for each run. Log armor and fap decay to compare later

 

[TheOneOmega]

Just do a normal hunt using the same weapon setup 500ped ammo using your weapon of choice, and every gain using skillscanner before/after, and save your chatlog files for each run. Log armor and fap decay to compare later

I'm afraid that doesn't test my hypothesis, solve either of my problems, ignores any possible link between offensive skill gain and defensive skill gain, and assumes I have 500 PED.

Nonetheless, +rep for no apparent reason whatsoever.





Edit: Must spread rep. That kinda ruined any dry bit of humor this post may have contained. =/

 

[Immortal]

Deposit, then come back so you can do some real tests.

You seem to be ignoring how much information the chat log stores.

Please outline (that means, not using a wall of text to describe a simple idea) what you are testing and how it is the above testing parameters will not give you a desired outcome. I will then summarise how you can achieve this using statistical(maths) methods.

 

[Kaotic85]

This is an interesting thread, I often wounder what the defense skill ratios are

I can think of one possible solution to the healer attracting the mobs attention, would be to get said healer to use a VTOL and hover just off th ground so that the mob pretty much thinks that one has despaired Kinda a costly solution and the healer would have to be truely on the ball!!

Well hope this helps in some way (probably not LL) but if i think of any other way to over come this ill post it for sure.

+ rep for the idea.

 

[Oleg]

Your skill gain will be so pitifully small that you will barely be able to measure it in any meaningful way.

My advice is, don't waste your time on this.

 

[TheOneOmega]

Deposit, then come back so you can do some real tests.

You seem to be ignoring how much information the chat log stores.

Please outline (that means, not using a wall of text to describe a simple idea) what you are testing and how it is the above testing parameters will not give you a desired outcome. I will then summarise how you can achieve this using statistical(maths) methods.

I apologize if my previous post came across as genuinely disrespectful; it wasn't suppose to. Perhaps I am indeed missing some valuable aspect of the chat log.

From my test, I want to accomplish two things:

1) In general, I want the community to understand how defensive skill gains work. My hypothesis is that a single mob will give a limited supply of defensive skill, and then the skills will stop, or at least slow down exponentially. I want to test this hypothesis and possibly produce some measurements.

2) In particular, I want to find the best Dodge-based mob to Sweat in a small group (maybe 4 or 5 + healer). Candidates include, Bristles, Telzapods, and Trilomites. My limited experience has led me to believe that a Telzapod gives MUCH more defensive skill (at least short term) than the others. I want to test this hypothesis in light of my findings from point #1, and possibly produce some measurements.

A hunting test would not work because I would gain other skills during the hunt, which I do not want to do during the test.

 

[TheOneOmega]

This is an interesting thread, I often wounder what the defense skill ratios are

I can think of one possible solution to the healer attracting the mobs attention, would be to get said healer to use a VTOL and hover just off th ground so that the mob pretty much thinks that one has despaired Kinda a costly solution and the healer would have to be truely on the ball!!

Well hope this helps in some way (probably not LL) but if i think of any other way to over come this ill post it for sure.

+ rep for the idea.

That's actually a decent idea. The mob might still get in a quick hit, but maybe there's a way around that if a cliff or hill is used intelligently.

How about the Regen Field Chips? Does their area of effect span a decent vertical distance perhaps?

Your skill gain will be so pitifully small that you will barely be able to measure it in any meaningful way.

My advice is, don't waste your time on this.

I didn't consider that problem. Perhaps TT volume is not the best way to go for extremely small skill gain measurements.

I wonder if merely measuring the skill points (including fractions) might suffice for extremely small skill gain measurements. It's certainly a bad metric for normal tests, due to the "curve" that gives less skill points at higher skill levels, but for extremely small skill gain measurements, perhaps the "curve factor" would be insignificant.

 

[Immortal]

I apologize if my previous post came across as genuinely disrespectful; it wasn't suppose to. Perhaps I am indeed missing some valuable aspect of the chat log.

From my test, I want to accomplish two things:

1) In general, I want the community to understand how defensive skill gains work. My hypothesis is that a single mob will give a limited supply of defensive skill, and then the skills will stop, or at least slow down exponentially. I want to test this hypothesis and possibly produce some measurements.

2) In particular, I want to find the best Dodge-based mob to Sweat in a small group (maybe 4 or 5 + healer). Candidates include, Bristles, Telzapods, and Trilomites. My limited experience has led me to believe that a Telzapod gives MUCH more defensive skill (at least short term) than the others. I want to test this hypothesis in light of my findings from point #1, and possibly produce some measurements.

A hunting test would not work because I would gain other skills during the hunt, which I do not want to do during the test.

Okay then you need to consider that point 2) becomes obsolete since those mobs are almost i possible to sweat in large group and 4-5 noobs are going to die in two hits each from range

For point 1) you can measure your defensive skill gains as a proportion of total hunting as oleg says the gains will be so pitiful as to give anything meaningful you will wish you were back to sweating VU9.0 styl. 500ped on each mob is a small test-comparing them will give meaningful results as long as you track everything as suggested. Plus I've never seen a sweatmaster with 1000 evade

 

[TheOneOmega]

Okay then you need to consider that point 2) becomes obsolete since those mobs are almost i possible to sweat in large group and 4-5 noobs are going to die in two hits each from range

For point 1) you can measure your defensive skill gains as a proportion of total hunting as oleg says the gains will be so pitiful as to give anything meaningful you will wish you were back to sweating VU9.0 styl. 500ped on each mob is a small test-comparing them will give meaningful results as long as you track everything as suggested. Plus I've never seen a sweatmaster with 1000 evade

If there is a healer with a small group, there is pretty much no death. I have done 4 + healer on Bristles before with no problem (except I got pretty much no Dodge from the suckers).

By the way, how does going on a hunt help me test the hypothesis mentioned in "1)"? I would kill the mobs before they had a chance to "run out" of defensive skill, if that's how it works.

 

[Immortal]

If there is a healer with a small group, there is pretty much no death. I have done 4 + healer on Bristles before with no problem (except I got pretty much no Dodge from the suckers).

By the way, how does going on a hunt help me test the hypothesis mentioned in "1)"? I would kill the mobs before they had a chance to "run out" of defensive skill, if that's how it works.

Well if all you seek to prove that a mob runs out of skill giving:
Stand and fap on a mob for one hour, then post chat log.

Once you have established that it is either a certain amount of time, hp, hits or attacks, further experiments may be done.

 

[Neuromancer]

Darn.

I thought this was about my great soc.

 

[TheOneOmega]

Well if all you seek to prove that a mob runs out of skill giving:
Stand and fap on a mob for one hour, then post chat log.

Once you have established that it is either a certain amount of time, hp, hits or attacks, further experiments may be done.

This is the test I plan on doing. Sorry if I wasn't clear earlier.

The only difference is that I plan to find someone else to gain the healing skills, so there is zero chance they alter the amount of defensive skill I receive. But I also don't want the healer to get hit by the mob (especially if the healer received some defensive skill from it) as that could alter the results as well.

Just trying to isolate as many variables as possible since we don't know how the system actually works.

 

[Immortal]

This is the test I plan on doing. Sorry if I wasn't clear earlier.

The only difference is that I plan to find someone else to gain the healing skills, so there is zero chance they alter the amount of defensive skill I receive. But I also don't want the healer to get hit by the mob (especially if the healer received some defensive skill from it) as that could alter the results as well.

Just trying to isolate as many variables as possible since we don't know how the system actually works.

And you can't sweat it either while doing so.

 

[TheOneOmega]

Darn.

I thought this was about my great soc.

And you can't sweat it either while doing so.

Right, can only stand, jump, and dance.

 

[Falagor]

I also sign under that mobs "dry out" of the skillgains so Omega your intuitions on this are right.

I have done two tests:
1) well there is (was?) no turret at Nymphtown so i draged one molisk young there and was getting killed at revive. He gave me some green lines (for about 15 minutes) and then for nearly 2 hours i have not seen ANY green line. Thinking that MA is a smartass and thought some sort of prevention from exploiting it this way i went out of the terminal (without killing the molisk there) and found "fresh" molisk same maturity. Before i died it gave me Evade gain.
After this test i thought that mayby the problem is i do not regain hp (or regain to little) to get greenlines (and for the first 15 min i was getting some old queued skills - that was my explanation for that time) so i have tried another test.

2) i have put settler armor on me and went near PA (west of it) to find a berycled puny. It hits for 2.5-5.0 dmg and with settler it was even reduced. So with my evade and in settler i was able to sustain alive for very very long without healing (actually i have not died untill end of the test but my hp was very slowly decreasing). Test lasted 1 hour and i have stoped gaininng skills after about 5-6 minutes (actually there were only 4 green lines total, have not counted the TT value because i was curious about the theory if it will stop at some time not "how much" ). I was regaining hp and did not died, also i have moved few metters from time to time to exclude the "location lock" for skills.

So i am pretty sure that each mob has cap for skills he may give. I am more curious now if mayby there is a TT limit of skills no matter what skills you will get. For example that berycled did not give me any skills when i killed it - of course it is nothing uncomon but mayby it was actually "totally dry" and would not give ANY skills at all after drying.

Also another question stands:
if mob gets dry of skills (lets think evade/dodge only for now) for me - will it also be dry for others too?
I am willing to test this out with someone (berycled puny is good one to test it i think).

@edit:
notice this test is very low cost . Decay on settler was really low .

Falagor

 

[M Rufen Power]

Yes mobs have skill caps, I tried a few tests on with the wolves @ THING for several hours. Those wolves hit very fast or faster than any other mob on calypso. For a lv 2 mob it could actually kill me through armor .

 

[GoNi]

Your test isn´t possible to do.

If there is a healer or any other person around, the mob will attack him sooner or later.

You can´t be that isolated to get a clean result.

Anyways the idea is good, but no way to do it. KI of mobs is to stupid (random)

 

[TheOneOmega]

there is (was?) no turret at Nymphtown so i draged one molisk young there and was getting killed at revive.

So i am pretty sure that each mob has cap for skills he may give. I am more curious now if mayby there is a TT limit of skills no matter what skills you will get. For example that berycled did not give me any skills when i killed it - of course it is nothing uncomon but mayby it was actually "totally dry" and would not give ANY skills at all after drying.

Also another question stands:
if mob gets dry of skills (lets think evade/dodge only for now) for me - will it also be dry for others too?
I am willing to test this out with someone (berycled puny is good one to test it i think).

The revive without turret idea is excellent. It avoids a pretty big hassle.

Both of your follow up questions would indeed be helpful for understanding the system. I can help you test the second to see if it's avatar based or not.

 

[Falagor]

I tired to do both tests again (i have done them some time ago and mayby something has changed). There is still no turret at Nymph so it is still possible to do so.

Basicly my evade level must have got much higher from the time i tested it in the first place. Well i have done the mission with evade as reward in meantime and i guess this may be the issue (curently i have 1587 evade and at 9.44 evade level. At the first time i tested it - i am not sure what level i was).

The test with molisk at turret gave me only one evade skill gain (in first 10 minutes) and stoped, then after about 30 minutes i lost my molisk and wasnt able to conitnue the test .
As for the berycled punys:
i stood against first for about 45 minutes - no skill gain at all. I sweated it dry and got one sweat gathering skill gain doing it. Then i choosed another one and stood getting hit for about 30 minutes and another and the 4th gave me one skill gain.

1) Conclusion:
if there is skill cap on some mobs then defensive skills do not cap other skills (at least sweat gathering skills).

2) Hypotesis: (aplies only if the skillgain cap really exists)
each mob contirbutes to your skillgains even if his cap wont let you get one "full green line" so that after few little mobs that will cap-out on you, finally you will get the skillgain
OR
each cap while capping-out has a chance to give you a skillgain (proportional to your level and mayby also to a mob).

Seems that it would be way easier to test this with new or very low level avatar. I will try to convince my friend who probably has his account here but has played very little and seems he just quit the game - to come back and test it mayby .

Falagor

 

[TheOneOmega]

Thanks for posting the results. Quite bewildering I must say. I first noticed this "run out of skill" model when someone piloting a Mothership mentioned that his Space Craft Pilot skill was "stuck." The Mothership was being hit by the same Cosmic Horrors over and over, so a similar algorithm must be used for the two systems.

As for the single green line mobs, did you grab a Molisk/Puny that you witnessed spawning, or one that may have attacked someone else in its lifetime?

 

[Falagor]

(...)
As for the single green line mobs, did you grab a Molisk/Puny that you witnessed spawning, or one that may have attacked someone else in its lifetime?

Ah forgot about this possiblity . Next time i will have some more time to play i will surelly try to get freshly spawn .

Falagor

 

[narfi]

You don't need a healer if you are overprotected.

1 mob hitting you for 1s you will be able to outregen their crits.

Borrow some thunderbird, or find a combination of 4c/electric armor that is more than their max dmg.

narfi

 

[Farmer Smurf]

I have sweated most every mob i meet, some i farm for months.

I have death skilled against high level mobs such as dasps.

I have long ago realized 2-3 dodge/evade msgs are all I can get out of any mob.

good luck on your tests..