FYI: Turret vs Weapon Efficiency Testing

[Jhereg]

This thread is inspired by https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...em-unwrapping-have-to-start-somewhere.280839/. Because of this, I decided to run my own testing.

Raw Data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16n61qVdwKwtRYa03BmBg6PuqKr0xYXC9dLFwAm9zI-4/edit?usp=sharing

Additional Data:
From @mspatterson
PLP-20 - 28.8% - 10shots - 2.0856cost - 45.16looter - atrox guardian - 1.4909turret return - 71.485424% return%


Some notes on methods

1) I confirmed all decay/ammo cost used for each weapon tested.
2) I did at least two tests to ensure that I didn't accidentally heal.
3) No armor was used.
4) No healing was done, I let myself automatically regenerate.

Observations

1) As expected, turret return is fixed based on input cost for a particular weapon. So when I went to do the same test again, I always got the same return for the same number of shots fired.
2) The Eff versus turret return is linear. Below is a plot of the data points:

Based on these points, the slope here is .0526% per point of efficiency, or 5.26% over the entire range of the 0-100 efficiency.

NOTE: There is a big caveat here. We do not know how the efficiency modifier is applied. If efficiency is applied as a flat % of tt return after calculating the return cost for the turret (added after), then we might conjecture we will see a 5.26% difference in TT when we do regular hunting. However, if the efficiency is applied to cost, before calculating the return cost of the turret, then this value will be too low.
For example, we might scale the slope from the turret data to a TT return of ~9x% range. For example. If we assume that 92% eff correlates 99% TT in regular hunting. We can scale the 5.26% by 99%/74.7% = 6.97%.

3) Looter level appears to have no impact with turreted returns. I got exact same return on a drone as I got on an atrox with the ozpyn Chon s1x1.

Thanks for reading!

Acknowledgements : @slither for Loaning me the Swine!

 

[M Rufen Power]

Thanks for the post, but I didn't learn anything new myself.
Afaik a higher efficiency wep lowers loot swings and cycles.

 

[Slyk]

Thanks for the post, but I didn't learn anything new myself.
Afaik a higher efficiency wep lowers loot swings and cycles.

'Thanks for the data and explanation, but I believe this because I made it up in my head.' - this guy

Where are the dev notes on higher eff lowering cycles?
Where are your tests with meaningful eff differences to measure a loot cycle? (Spoiler, I know you can't shoot anything with decent eff)
Where aren't the notes that say it affects TT calculation by 7%?

 

[Deleted member 55358]

now we need to test my plp-20 or one of the pirons.. ive always felt it was perfection in loot2.. max cost and stable returns. if you need to borrow mine let me know

 

[Eli]

There goes my plan to get rich using turret

 

[ermik]

I just love to see i can inspire ppl to spin off and do wonderful things

if i were a cat id *purrrrrr*

 

[Deleted member 55358]

im gonna test with my plp as soon as i can get to ground... you just doing 1 shot and turreting? be nice to get a 28%eff on the list there

*EDIT*
nevermind i see its 10shots on chart.. headin to caly now so ill test it

 

[M Rufen Power]

Where are the dev notes on higher eff lowering cycles?

It's a bit obvious, isn't it, based on how a higher eff wep gives you a higher base return from mob being killed by the turret? An item that inherently has a higher base return means you will need far fewer kills to reach loot correction, and this, in essence, will lower the loot cycles. But if you didn't know that, please keep poking fun at me. I am a bleb, after all.

 

[Slyk]

It's a bit obvious, isn't it, based on how a higher eff wep gives you a higher base return from mob being killed by the turret? An item that inherently has a higher base return means you will need far fewer kills to reach loot correction, and this, in essence, will lower the loot cycles. But if you didn't know that, please keep poking fun at me. I am a bleb, after all.

So when you get 7% more from every mob, lowering the cost needed to kill enough mobs to reach the mob that has your correction and an additional 7% recieved from that 'correction', you're not ahead by TT%? Just exact same returns, but took longer with lower eff?

Lols

 

[PkmX]

Great post Zho! How do you give +rep to a post twice?

This raises some further questions:

1) Why were there dispensaries in the previous post, such as getting the same or even less % returned even when using FEN weapons with 30% more efficiency? Were they just not testing properly?

2) Are "skill misses" from using non-maxed weapons returned? Would have to test getting a skill miss on the first shot and then turreting the mob.

For the "skill misses" (not evades) these still do affect your "loot value" returns negatively as they did in the past.

3) Are all 0% efficiency weapons equal? Maybe some with worse dpp actually have negative efficiency.

4) Bonus question to MA: what happens to the approximately 25% of the loot that is not returned? Pocketed by MA? Contributed to the bonus loot pool?

 

[Deleted member 55358]

ok atrox guardian.. 10 shots with plp-20(28.8% eff) unamped/ehnanced, no armor/fap

decay(10 shots) = 269.47(with sweat test 269.4784) / 270 = (52.16pec decay or 5.216pec per shot)
ammo used = 15640(1.564ped)

sweat test cost = 2.0856
return = 1.4909

result = 71.485424% return with plp-20

sweat test required 160 bottles 0.16pec additional decay

 

[Jhereg]

ok atrox guardian.. 10 shots with plp-20 unamped/ehnanced, no armor/fap

decay(10 shots) = 269.47/270(53pec) = 5.3pec per shot. wiki says 5.216 per shot.
ammo used = 15640(1.564ped)

wiki cost = 2.0856
visual cost = 2.094
return = 1.49

wiki result = 72.47% return with plp-20 based on wiki costs for 10 shots
visual result = 71.15% return using the tt decay i could visually see on gun in 10 shots

Can you check the decay on the weapon with a sweat test?

 

[Deleted member 55358]

well im not familiar with this testing stuff so i put all the info i could there... how you do it with sweat?

i havent yet repair or anything so anything is still possible lol

 

[Jhereg]

well im not familiar with this testing stuff so i put all the info i could there... how you do it with sweat?

VERY CAREFULLY:

Place the gun in TT terminal.
Place enough sweat into tt termina with gun for the pec value to go up 1 pec

The actual tt of the item is the tt displayed on the gun plus #sweat bottles/100000

(I think I got that right...)

 

[Deleted member 55358]

kk im on it.. the rest of the tests done with sweat as well?

think gonna have to buy it.. sweat dont have much value omg!! what do i need 50ped of sweat? lol

 

[warmdogg]

Could we see if zho can replicate your results with the same gun? To see if looter level is involved in anyway here?

 

[Eli]

Zho always sweat tests.

 

[PkmX]

kk im on it.. the rest of the tests done with sweat as well?

think gonna have to buy it.. sweat dont have much value omg!! what do i need 50ped of sweat? lol

You only need at most 1k sweat, and you can use fruits or fragments which are also 0.001 PEC each. See the wiki for how to properly do a fruit test:

entropiawiki: Calculate the decay of an item

Was your PLP-20 at max TT before the test?

 

[Deleted member 55358]

ok took exactly 160 bottles of sweat to get the pec value to increase... 159 didnt do it i confirmed.. so precisely 160 bottles

 

[PkmX]

ok took exactly 160 bottles of sweat to get the pec value to increase... 159 didnt do it i confirmed.. so precisely 160 bottles

So wiki is right, it is exactly 5.216 PEC decay per shot or 20.856 PEC including ammo. Interpolation from Zho's data it should return 71.49% or 14.91 PEC per shot, which is very close to your result.

 

[Deleted member 55358]

yes ive come to that conclusion as well.. wiki is accurate and my post complete and updated now

 

[Deleted member 55358]

seems inline with your chart.. now im curious of something else.... the benefits to low eff weaps to equipping high eff sights amp etc are much greater than a high eff weap.. what i mean is like a swine at 7% eff once amped with sights scopes etc can get close to 20% or my plp is current sitting at 43.1% only amped and scopes/sights and un-enhanced. compared to a 90% eff gun equipping same gear doesnt change much. be interesting to see how that return% and eff bonus skew!

 

[Mathilda]

You only need at most 1k sweat, and you can use fruits or fragments which are also 0.001 PEC each. See the wiki for how to properly do a fruit test:

entropiawiki: Calculate the decay of an item

Was your PLP-20 at max TT before the test?

you can also just use ammo or shrapnel which is available anywhere and not go through the hassle of getting fruit sweat

 

[Deleted member 55358]

you can also just use ammo or shrapnel which is available anywhere and not go through the hassle of getting fruit sweat

lol ty but too late!! i managed to borrow some sweat from the professionals at boreas for the test already

 

[PkmX]

you can also just use ammo or shrapnel which is available anywhere and not go through the hassle of getting fruit sweat

Ammo or shrapnel are 0.01 PEC each whereas sweat/fruit/fragments are 0.001 PEC, so using ammo to test decay will be less accurate unless you take 10 shots.

 

[Jhereg]

Shout out to @Eli for helping me test at a lower player looter level!

Chon was tested with identical number of shots. Result of turreted return for 20 shots was .2116, which is identical to my return also. Therefore I think we can conclude that looter lvl is definitely not involved here...

 

[Deleted member 55358]

Shout out to @Eli for helping me test at a lower player looter level!

Chon was tested with identical number of shots. Result of turreted return for 20 shots was .2116, which is identical to my return also. Therefore I think we can conclude that looter lvl is definitely not involved here...

it makes sense cuz you didnt actually loot... but thats something to test next or consider cuz im guessing its added ontop of these figures when you actually loot

 

[Eli]

Ammo or shrapnel are 0.01 PEC each whereas sweat/fruit/fragments are 0.001 PEC, so using ammo to test decay will be less accurate unless you take 10 shots.

Curse you made me second guess myself, had to check. Shrapnel is .0001

EDIT:: Curse, Zho had to brain poke, never mind me. I can't read.

 

[Deleted member 55358]

arent eff and looter supposed to make up 7% of your returns? is it possible the looter skill provides the additional 2% ish missing?

 

[Jhereg]

arent eff and looter supposed to make up 7% of your returns? is it possible the looter skill provides the additional 2% ish missing?

MA never made a statement about looter.

Only made a statement about efficiency, said efficiency will account for about 7%... lol