Warning: Tracking isn't logging your misses

[Sunsout Gunsout]

I personally find it petty to whine about the change in message from "Miss" to "Evade" when I'm no longer losing ammo unnecessarily when shots truly miss due to a mob's hitbox briefly disappearing or a wasted shot goes into the air or ground. I'm certainly happy for that change.

That's not why I made this thread. This thread was to inform people that MA's change is making combat logs show 100% hit rates, which is important to anyone who cares about tracking. You should have not been losing ammo in those situations you describe YEARS ago. If you think that because MA finally made that change now, it is petty for people to have opinions about other matters such as miss rates, or the existence of misses at all, then you are just trying to censor what people say, and for that you should be ashamed.

YOU obviously had a problem with the policy of wasting ammo when you shot into the ground, and rightfully so, but did anyone try to stop you from having that opinion? I doubt it. Personally I have a problem with them adding misses, and further problems with them increasing the miss rate over time. It is nothing more than a HOUSE-RAKE, and when house rake get too high, people leave. It is an issue that needs to be addressed. Thousands of people stopped selling on ebay or using payapl when the "house-rake" got to high. Thousands of people like me only frequent poker rooms with LOW house rake. House-rake, or misses, is an integral issue to this game, and people should be allowed to have their own opinions on the matter. I will respect your opinions, but you calling someone else's opinion petty, well, that is just petty in itself.

 

[Jimmy B]

but I really just wanted to vent my displeasure at MA for changing shit that has absolutely NO bearing on gameplay or any of the issues that DO need fixing.

I kinda feel a bit like that about the avatar update tbh. But that must have taken some time. Changing MISS to EVADE couldn't have taken more than five minutes of someone's time.

I am sure our miss rate will be higher until tracking software catches up with it.

(a) they've actually said misses will be slightly less than previous.
(b) the chat log doesn't get deleted unless you choose to delete it, so all the miss data is there still even if you can't read it right now.
(c) changes to miss rate don't matter anyway, unless there is no corresponding change to loot (and until that's been determined, there's no point whining about higher miss rates, and likewise there's no point cheering lower miss rates)

This thread was to inform people that MA's change is making combat logs show 100% hit rates

So? MA have to be able to make changes. Then we adapt our tools to deal with them. We don't lose any info in the long run, as per point (b) above.

and further problems with them increasing the miss rate over time.

Doer's recent tests seemed to suggest the miss rates a few months ago follow the same formula we derived about five years ago, so if miss rate has increased over time it's been pretty slow. Also see point (c), and point (a) for that matter.

 

[Sunsout Gunsout]

(a) they've actually said misses will be slightly less than previous.
(b) the chat log doesn't get deleted unless you choose to delete it, so all the miss data is there still even if you can't read it right now.
(c) changes to miss rate don't matter anyway, unless there is no corresponding change to loot (and until that's been determined, there's no point whining about higher miss rates, and likewise there's no point cheering lower miss rates)

Quote Originally Posted by Sunsout Gunsout View Post
This thread was to inform people that MA's change is making combat logs show 100% hit rates
So? MA have to be able to make changes. Then we adapt our tools to deal with them. We don't lose any info in the long run, as per point (b) above.

Quote Originally Posted by Sunsout Gunsout View Post
and further problems with them increasing the miss rate over time.
Doer's recent tests seemed to suggest the miss rates a few months ago follow the same formula we derived about five years ago, so if miss rate has increased over time it's been pretty slow. Also see point (c), and point (a) for that matter.

Oh, ok, so it was dumb of me to make a thread that pointed out how tracker wasn't working today, until starfinder got home and figured it out? I am pretty sure that people who keep copious records of their hunts would want to know that BEFORE they go cycle another full hunt, only to realize that now all of their data is skewed. Of course MA has to, and can make changes. Judging by my plus-reps for pointing this out to avid combat loggers, this thread had a functional purpose.

Why the hell did you even make the above response to my statement that I wanted to inform people that tracker wasn't working? Not everyone tracks by sifting through old chat logs...wow that sounds fun. Seriously...read it and think about it. Jesus I am sick of this place.

SO you just want people to shut up and let them slowly increase miss rate over time, even if it is very small as you stated, you just want them to keep doing it? Lower it for a little while, but in the long run it is only an upward trend and you know it. Well sorry, I can't sit around with my thumb in my ass.

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

neg-repping people who have different opinions

That is not why I neg-repped you. I neg-repped you for your completely and utterly ridiculus accusations/conspiracy theories and BS whining in the opening post.

 

[Coelacanth]

If this new EVADE is now calculated from mob stats and mob AI - then that is 100% legitimate.

If this new EVADE has nothing to do with AI or mobs stats - then it is faked via a simple "text" change.

....and we all know which one it is.

Since a Chirpy and a few JamRaider Level 1's evaded some of my shots yesterday, I'm not thinking stats or AI has anything to do with it.

 

[Jimmy B]

Oh, ok, so it was dumb of me to make a thread that pointed out how tracker wasn't working today, until starfinder got home and figured it out?

No, a "Warning: Tracking isn't logging your misses" thread would have been fine.

- Saying MA is fooling is with EVADE instead of MISS is nonsense though (fooling us how?)
- Saying MA wasted developer time that they could have spent on something else is nonsense (its a trivial 5min job)
- Saying our miss rate will be higher than before until Tracker is fixed is nonsense (we'd be able to retrospectively see that from our chat logs anyway)

Not everyone tracks through chat log.

Tracker tracks through chat log.

SO you just want people to shut up and let them slowly increase miss rate over time, even if it is very small as you stated, you just want them to keep doing it?.

No, I said if there has been any increase in miss rate in the time frame I mentioned then it has been so small the playerbase has been unable to see it.

Again, it is irrelevant anyway. If MA wanted us to lose more PED they can just lower loot.

 

[Sunsout Gunsout]

That is not why I neg-repped you. I neg-repped you for your completely and utterly ridiculus accusations/conspiracy theories and BS whining in the opening post.

Sorry I didn't put a winking smiley face on the end of my blatantly sarcastic closing statement. I thought that my sarcasm was thick enough for even the most dim-witted people to pick up on. That was totally my fault (SARCASM ALERT!!!! When I said "That was totally my fault" I WAS BEING SARCASTIC everyone, in case you didn't know!!!) There, I will do it that way next time.

 

[Sunsout Gunsout]

Tracker tracks through chat log.

Yeah, I know, and it also doesn't make me sift through old ones to come up with accurate data does it? Which is AGAIN why I was warning people.

Christ you guys are pissing me off. I am gonna get a drink. I hope you all get list-dropped with 100th place HOF swirlies on 51 ped loots tonight. :/

 

[Serica]

/mod note/

No, a "Warning: Tracking isn't logging your misses" thread would have been fine...

Good idea, changing the thread title to just that.

And for the record.
Since at least when I started in 2006, there has always been some hits that didn't damage the mob (even at point blank range).
Originally there was nothing shown in chat, but if you manually counted the shots that damaged and compared to the shots used, there would be a difference. There were tests done by players including Doer and Witte to measure the average rate of that difference, which resulted in the Effective Damage formula as used on Entropedia.
A few years ago (I dont recall the exact VU), MindArk actually added a line in the chat that showed those as 'MISS', which made it a LOT easier to track and confirm the hit rate using tools like Tracker.
All they've done in this VU is change that text to show the mob is evading the hit, which is a far more useful description of what's happening, imho.
They've also said they've lowered that rate of hit evasion somewhat, which should increase the effective damage of all weapons. Tbh, I can't see that as a bad thing.

 

[Sunsout Gunsout]

/mod note/


Good idea, changing the thread title to just that.

I edited OP and requested mod change the title already. I find it odd that you would modify it to someone else's title, rather than the one the OP requested. Better yet, why don't you go through all the threads, and pick the BEST parts from all the replies and rewrite all the OP's too while you are at it! jk about that last part.

 

[Tepes]

I personally find it petty to whine about the change in message from "Miss" to "Evade" when I'm no longer losing ammo unnecessarily when shots truly miss due to a mob's hitbox briefly disappearing or a wasted shot goes into the air or ground. I'm certainly happy for that change.

Well.. it took a lot of "whining" from our part when they removed the ~no-shot with right click~ in order to change things.. We "whined" a lot so it was re-introduced weeks later but only if the ~interact with target~ option was checked. I guess it was extended now, so 10k kudos to all the people who complained and managed to force things better. Like no armor decay when equipped.

 

[Coelacanth]

Well.. it took a lot of "whining" from our part when they removed the ~no-shot with right click~ in order to change things.. We "whined" a lot so it was re-introduced weeks later but only if the ~interact with target~ option was checked. I guess it was extended now, so 10k kudos to all the people who complained and managed to force things better. Like no armor decay when equipped.

But changing a text message from "Missed" to "Evaded" isn't a bug, and it has no effect on anything except the Entropia Tracker, just because the wording was changed. Whining about this is like whining about a non-issue. You don't really think MA cares that this change affects how Entropia Tracker works, do you? I think that would be among the least of MA's concerns--it's not even their software. If 3rd-party shit breaks, too bad so sad.

Bottom line is, you're comparing whining about real issues & bugs to whining about a wording change which has no in-game effect on anything. Not a valid comparison.

 

[Sunsout Gunsout]

But changing a text message from "Missed" to "Evaded" isn't a bug, and it has no effect on anything except the Entropia Tracker, just because the wording was changed. Whining about this is like whining about a non-issue. You don't really think MA cares that this change affects how Entropia Tracker works, do you? I think that would be among the least of MA's concerns--it's not even their software. If 3rd-party shit breaks, too bad so sad.

Bottom line is, you're comparing whining about real issues & bugs to whining about a wording change which has no in-game effect on anything. Not a valid comparison.

HOLY GREAT FUCKING TITTES ON A STICK... YOU JUST DON"T GET IT, DO YOU?. The issue of the wording change was addressed to inform other people that tracker wasn't working. That is a fair thing to do. Plus, issue #1 is solved so stfu about it already. The second issue of MISSES in general is SURE AS FUCK a debatable issue!!!! And people are allowed to have their opinions on debatable issues without them being called whiners. Quit mixing the 2 issues ffs.

 

[Tepes]

But changing a text message from "Missed" to "Evaded" isn't a bug

You're right here. But the OP point of view (I think) is that the change is a lame attempt to cover other things - is still a miss.. not an improvement. Just the 10% ammo jizya, no point to paint it otherwise.

And I wanted to remind that the positives changes were following the complaints from upset players, not from the ever-happy ones (who never complains)

 

[Serica]

I edited OP and requested mod change the title already. I find it odd that you would modify it to someone else's title, rather than the one the OP requested. Better yet, why don't you go through all the threads, and pick the BEST parts from all the replies and rewrite all the OP's too while you are at it! jk about that last part.

If you sent that request by pm to a particular mod, I guess they just haven't seen it yet.
It certainly didnt come thru 'Reported Posts' as a request for a change, which would have meant ANY of the mods would have been able to action it.
Or do you mean you just changed the OP, and thought the mods had nothing better to do with their time than to read over your old posts to see if you might have changed one to include a request ?
Looking at your edited OP now, I still think JimmyB's suggestion is the better name. Alleging that MA gives a damn about how Tracker uses info in the chat log, and changed their own program to 'fool' a 3rdparty app is just ludicrous.

 

[Coelacanth]

HOLY GREAT FUCKING TITTES ON A STICK... YOU JUST DON"T GET IT, DO YOU?. The issue of the wording change was addressed to inform other people that tracker wasn't working. That is a fair thing to do. Plus, issue #1 is solved so stfu about it already. The second issue of MISSES in general is SURE AS FUCK a debatable issue!!!! And people are allowed to have their opinions on debatable issues without them being called whiners. Quit mixing the 2 issues ffs.

I was replying to Tepes, not you, dumbass.

 

[Jimmy B]

Which is AGAIN why I was warning people.

And again, I had no problem with you warning people. I had problem with you suggesting MA had made the change in order to cause tracking not to work. Which is just paranoid nonsense.

On the miss topic, I did a short run tonight, not long enough to be statistically reliable but I had 93.8% hit rate, up from the 90% hit rate that has been the norm afaik for maxed weps for the last 5+ years.

 

[Sunsout Gunsout]

If you sent that request by pm to a particular mod, I guess they just haven't seen it yet.
It certainly didnt come thru 'Reported Posts' as a request for a change, which would have meant ANY of the mods would have been able to action it.
Or do you mean you just changed the OP, and thought the mods had nothing better to do with their time than to read over your old posts to see if you might have changed one to include a request ?
Looking at your edited OP now, I still think JimmyB's suggestion is the better name. Alleging that MA gives a damn about how Tracker uses info in the chat log, and changed their own program to 'fool' a 3rdparty app is just ludicrous.

Well, I understand why they did it, and that they can do what they want. That's fine, call it evade or whatever, its all the same. But the new designation was "fooling the software" whether it was intended or not, doesn't matter. It did "fool" it, and it was fixed...this time. What happens when they keep changing stuff? What happens when damage messages are re-worded 50 different ways like killed messages...or they start changing or randomizing the messages on a regular basis. Call me paranoid, but I can COMPLETELY foresee a future where less and less information is trackable. The whole point is, yes, this one time change is easily fixable on tracking software, but does it really change anything about misses...evades are still misses until it is proved to me that the evade is based on mob stats. Since there is NO proof of that, it was pointless rewording. What? To make the new players less doubtful? Afiac, the only significance of it was that it shows how easy it would be for MA to continue changing stuff to make it untrackable, and worse yet, to call a spade a heart. And since they are calling a spade a heart, since misses don't seem to be tied to mob agility or whatever, then YES I think FOOLING is a much better term.

 

[Sunsout Gunsout]

And again, I had no problem with you warning people. I had problem with you suggesting MA had made the change in order to cause tracking not to work. Which is just paranoid nonsense.

On the miss topic, I did a short run tonight, not long enough to be statistically reliable but I had 93.8% hit rate, up from the 90% hit rate that has been the norm afaik for maxed weps for the last 5+ years.

Are there more misses now than in 2004, or than in 2008, I say yes. And I will give you the fact that they may have scaled it down a little with this update and we miss a bit less, and that is a wonderful thing. But I hesitate to think that they EVER would have without people taking up issue with misses and returns and speaking their mind.

My mind says WTF? Like I said in another reply, this is calling a spade a heart, and to me that is pointless. A spade is a spade until I see that miss rate is tied to mob stats. Since I don't see that, it is purely rhetoric. And If I have a problem with people calling things by a different name, then I defend my right to speak against it, and yes, to be "paranoid" about future implications.

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

Call me paranoid

You're paranoid.

 

[Sunsout Gunsout]

You're paranoid.

Lol, I KNEW someone would say that, and it just HAD to be the person I am maddest at right now too huh.

 

[Sunsout Gunsout]

I was replying to Tepes, not you, dumbass.

Yeah I knew that, it was a build-up of anger at people mixing up the issues that finally poured out of me as I happened to read your post, but I do want to apologize for my tone in it, that was mean of me.

 

[Jimmy B]

Call me paranoid, but I can COMPLETELY foresee a future where less and less information is trackable.

There's no evidence of that is happening though. In fact, vastly more information is trackable than it was back in 2005 when I started playing. Tracking hit and miss rate is way easier these days, examining skills and professions is way easier these days, global/hof data is readily available for everyone (rather than a select few who ran a private tracking system) since tracker was made an officially allowed 3rd party app by MA, etc.

Honestly, I've done lots of stuff over the years trying to figure out how various things in EU work, and data gathering is way easier now than it used to be. Don't get me wrong, I'm always up for more information (two things I'd like to see are tt of loots in chat window, and item equip messages in chat window), but MA are generally moving in the right direction on this.

Are there more misses now than in 2004, or than in 2008, I say yes.

Why? Because you fear it?

The formulas for hit rate that people derived from data back in I think 2006, or maybe it was 2007, still worked last week. So there's no evidence that there are more misses now than before. And it is much easier now for us to see if anything changes too.

I honestly don't mean to offend you, but you appear believing in a nightmare scenario that your imagination has created.

And I wanted to remind that the positives changes were following the complaints from upset players, not from the ever-happy ones (who never complains)

I don't think there's anyone who never complains. I've even seen Nighthawk complain!

But it is best to pick actual problems to complain about, and to do it in a constructive manner. Wild uncalled-for negativity like some we've seen in this thread just builds a negative atmosphere. It pushes people away from the forums, and puts out a bad image of the game and the community for newcomers.

 

[Konve]

Are there more misses now than in 2004, or than in 2008, I say yes. And I will give you the fact that they may have scaled it down a little with this update and we miss a bit less, and that is a wonderful thing. But I hesitate to think that they EVER would have without people taking up issue with misses and returns and speaking their mind.

My mind says WTF? Like I said in another reply, this is calling a spade a heart, and to me that is pointless. A spade is a spade until I see that miss rate is tied to mob stats. Since I don't see that, it is purely rhetoric. And If I have a problem with people calling things by a different name, then I defend my right to speak against it, and yes, to be "paranoid" about future implications.

(Not including This VU, since as you know tracking doesn't work.)

No, there are not more misses these days. In fact you miss a lot less these days on average, because so many are using (L) items that they are maxed on.

You're just paranoid.

 

[Sunsout Gunsout]

(Not including This VU, since as you know tracking doesn't work.)

No, there are not more misses these days. In fact you miss a lot less these days on average, because so many are using (L) items that they are maxed on.

You're just paranoid.

Well there are more misses for some people then. Tracker is working again, too. I bought 5 L calytrek spirit MK II's the other day, and am screen-shotting all the combat logs to post later. I am totally maxxed on those guns, and through about 1.2k ped of ammo cycled, I have a hit rate of only 88.03% post-vu! It was worse before the vu for me too...at about 85-86%. It IS slightly better now, but it is still 4% below the generally accepted average of 90% pre-VU and 92% post-VU. I am L59 BLP currently. I was L64, but chipped out a bit a few months ago. I am assuming it should have no effect on my miss rate with these guns, but maybe it did?

 

[italiancarl]

Not complaining... but I really just wanted to vent my displeasure at MA for changing shit that has absolutely NO bearing on gameplay.

I just wanted to say thanks for not complaining! I would much rather listen to you vent!

 

[Sunsout Gunsout]

I just wanted to say thanks for not complaining! I would much rather listen to you vent!

I meant I wasn't complaining to EL to fix tracker, meaning I wasn't whining at them "Why haven't you fixed it yet"...Thats what I mean't...if you hadn't altered my OP, and read it, it is clear as heck! I was telling EL that I was not try to be pushy or complain when I mentioned it wasn't working, just pointing it out in case someone didn't know. As a separate matter, yes I did vent displeasure at MA ...so what? I didn't contradict myself did I? It was a separate issue.


Edit: I didn't realize who this was at first, so I went back in to clean up the language since I like you

 

[Mack Ka An]

Just speculating:
Can different creatures have different evade?
It used to be same for all but it could have changed now?
This could explain you missing more if the creatures evade went up.

 

[Sunsout Gunsout]

Just speculating:
Can different creatures have different evade?
It used to be same for all but it could have changed now?
This could explain you missing more if the creatures evade went up.

Starting to wonder that too...

 

[Coelacanth]

Just speculating:
Can different creatures have different evade?
It used to be same for all but it could have changed now?
This could explain you missing more if the creatures evade went up.

I'm also just speculating that they do not. A few Chirpies & JamRaider 01's gave me Evades a couple nights ago. I think all mobs "evade" at the same rate; or in other, more accurate terms, your avatar MISSES at the same rate, regardless of which mobs you hunt.